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Explanation for the endings


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#76
Dubozz

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csm4267 wrote...

Dubozz wrote...

1. When you out of ideas copy ending from the other popular game.
2. The less people know the better.
3. Insist on 'your' artistic vision.
4. If things looks bad - hide in the space bunker.


Mass Effect 3's ending is not a Deus Ex copy as I stated. Choices are similar, but that's it.

*sarcasm*
Why don't we go after all those movies, TV shows and such that have reused lines from where the original came from while we're at it. I can't count how many works of fiction have said "what are you going to do, shoot me". Let's retcon all those movies for reusing this line from the original movie.
*sarcasm*

2. The less people know the better.

People these days have no work ethic what so ever, and expect everything to be handed to them on a silver platter. Just look at all the people still waiting for an ending explanation 18 months after the game was released. In those 18 months, instead of petitioning or demanding answers, they could have played the game, figured out the ending and moved on to better things. This is sci-fi after all, and I guess lots of people around here can't handle any unanswered questions or stuff that isn't fully explained.

3. Insist on 'your' artistic vision.
You don't own the Mass Effect franchise or the story. People may like it a lot, but that doesn't make you the author of the story. Sure Bioware has used some people's input from the game, but that doesn't give us control over the story, or the ending. Like anything, you paid $60 to have someone write you a story. Don't like how it ended, ah well, move onto the next game.

4. If things looks bad - hide in the space bunker.
Ending isn't as bad as people say. Just requires a bit of thought to appreciate instead of taking everything at face value. Unfortunately, most people do not wish to read between the lines, pay attention or use their imagination to fill in the blanks. Expect everything to be done for them. Lack of work ethic on their part. Every story requires that the audience participate on some level. This is an RPG. People asked for more RPG elements, and using your imagination to fill in the blanks is one of them. Back in the old days of things like D&D required heavily on using your imagination. Other RPGs from perhaps 10 years ago had no pointers of things telling you exactly where to go to find your answers. I'd like to see how people these days handle one of those RPGs. They'd probably quit after 10 minutes.

If what we got is the way they wanted to end the trilogy, fine, I don't have to like it, but I'd at least like to know why they chose it, beyond "Just because."


They wanted a story that people could talk about. Most people did not want this. Instead, they wanted to have all the answers given to them and everything wrapped up. So, what people around here wanted is kind of the opposite of how they wanted to do the ending. It's ultimately up to you to decide how it all ends. The ending was made intentionally vague for you to make up your own mind and let your imagination go wild.


1. Sarcasm is pretty bad way to say "yeah, it's a copy of the other ending from another game, but i don't care because green is my favourite colour".  And your example is just weak.

2. Apparently you failed to understand my point.  About what you said: There is nothing to "understand" in this ending. There is nothing complex and interesting in it. It's just bad writing and nothing else. Two guys wrote a ****ed up ending without peer review. Thats all.

3.  Once again you failed to understand my point. No surprises here.   "Don't like how it ended, ah well, move onto the next game." I don't like how it ended, but who the **** are you to tell me what to do? I will express my thoughts about the game and the ending as long as i want.

4. Not sure if you can read or something, how something you've wrote even remotely related to my post?  "Ending isn't as bad as people say." Keep telling this to yourself, one day your wish will come true. And again, there is nothing complex about the ending. People understand the ending, they just don't like it.

 Mike Laidlaw defended DA2 for more than a year since release. Where were Casey and Mac? Don't get me wrong I admire Bioware's efforts to redeem the ending with the EC (i hope someone did find his peace with the ending with its help), but the way creators of the ending hid behind PR team and doctors was just...ridiculous and disappointing at the same time. 


"They wanted a story that people could talk about." And we are talking. Do you like this? No? I don't think they like it either. I hope at least they learned some lessons from this mess and we will never see ending like this again.

#77
blueumi

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the reason is they they never planned the ending which would explain why me 1,2 and 3 are so different and full of contradictions

They made mass effect 2 appeal more to shooter games then rpg gamers which worked as it did better then they made mass effect 3 more like gears of war and stopped really focusing on the story

Thing is most people liked the options in conversations and having real choice in each situation

we got auto dialogue which lots of people complained about as we can't do anything to stop star child by making him see how flawed his solution really is

#78
Arcian

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HYR 2.0 wrote...



bad ritan iz teh only explanashun

With tastes as low as yours, everything seems like a masterpiece.

#79
His Name was HYR!!

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Arcian wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...



bad ritan iz teh only explanashun

With tastes as low as yours, everything seems like a masterpiece.



Yet you do not deny that that is, in fact, an accurate summary how anti-enders think. Noiice! ^_^

#80
Iakus

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HYR 2.0 wrote...

Arcian wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...



bad ritan iz teh only explanashun

With tastes as low as yours, everything seems like a masterpiece.



Yet you do not deny that that is, in fact, an accurate summary how anti-enders think. Noiice! ^_^


"You're too stupid to understand the endings"

Yeah, heard it all before.

#81
sH0tgUn jUliA

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blueumi wrote...

the reason is they they never planned the ending which would explain why me 1,2 and 3 are so different and full of contradictions

They made mass effect 2 appeal more to shooter games then rpg gamers which worked as it did better then they made mass effect 3 more like gears of war and stopped really focusing on the story

Thing is most people liked the options in conversations and having real choice in each situation

we got auto dialogue which lots of people complained about as we can't do anything to stop star child by making him see how flawed his solution really is


ME3 was a trainwreck of a plot from start to finish. I just think they wanted to get the story over and done with. 

It's funny. Auto dialogue when done well isn't noticed, because it flows as a natural continuation of the conversation. Auto dialogue when done poorly is very noticeable because it's a WTF moment.

Then how do you explain that the ending just didn't fit because you needed a higher power to explain a problem you didn't know existed until the final five minutes of the story. <_< 

If only ME3 was like Gears of War. At least then I could have played the campaign with friends, and the ending would have well, not made sense either, but at least we wouldn't have needed God to solve our problems.

#82
His Name was HYR!!

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iakus wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Arcian wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...



bad ritan iz teh only explanashun

With tastes as low as yours, everything seems like a masterpiece.



Yet you do not deny that that is, in fact, an accurate summary how anti-enders think. Noiice! ^_^


"You're too stupid to understand the endings"

Yeah, heard it all before.



Nah, being "too stupid" to understand is a different thing entirely.

I'm saying something more down the lines of: ~ these people do not even think (... of any explanation past "it's bad").


Do you guys have any idea how much of the writers' vision/ideas are lost in the process developing the game? I think only the folks over at BioWare can have any accurate idea about that, not any of us. Judging from what we do know, however, -- from things such as the leaked ME3 scripts or the cut content from 2 & 3 (which can be found on youtube) -- there are a lot of things they come up with that don't make the final cut. As it happens, a lot of material that we know was cut from games 2 & 3 provided key context and details on some events (major and minor) that take place the game.

That would lend credence to the notion that maybe, just maybe, there does exist some resonable logic and ideas in the writers' heads behind some things in those games that don't appear to make too much sense at face-value.

Actually, it's not a maybe at all. It's fact. Can you explain to me why Zaeed is hunting down Cerberus in ME3 as we saw in his cameo/side-mission? There's some explanation for it in ME3 under his war-asset dossier, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense on its own. That's because a more detailed explanation put forward in the leaked script never made it to the final game. However, a little independent interpretation (lol speculation lol) of the information we did get can allow for that explanation to exist, and thereby, make sense of something that otherwise doesn't make much of it.

And that's where anti-ender logic = fail. You'll never find/reach those explanations and such with the mindset of "it's bad writing, don't bother thinking hard." But these people had made up their minds back in March of 2012, anyway.

#83
Iakus

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How is cutting out huge swaths of explanation and needed background information good writing?

Intentions =/= results. Trying and failing is still failing. I paid for what was on the disks not what was in the mind's eye of the writers.

Besides which given what came through in the endings I am not so sure I'd want to peer into the mind of whoever dreamed them up. It must be a dark and terrifying place

#84
Dubozz

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How can you even compare Zaeed's mission with the ending? Zaeed tells you everything during your conversation with him. Didn't you listen him?

Please don't tell me you think ending is well written, because it's not. Bioware knows this. They know that ending sucks big time, that's why we have three "restoration" DLC for the game.

EC- explains the ending. (if you have to explain your story to make it good, well you ****ed )
Leviathan - explains the ending
Citadel - "FORGET ABOUT THE ENDING DLC" --(since nobody likes it even after EC and leviathan) It's a New ending for ME. 

Even Bioware wants us to forget about the ending. You still think the ending is good? Alright, that's your opinion.

HYR 2.0 wrote...

And that's where anti-ender logic = fail.

Any more thoughtful posts?

#85
His Name was HYR!!

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iakus wrote...

How is cutting out huge swaths of explanation and needed background information good writing?


I wasn't aware this discussion was about the ending as good or bad writing, simply an explanation for it.


Intentions =/= results. Trying and failing is still failing. I paid for what was on the disks not what was in the mind's eye of the writers.


Okay?

Doesn't change the fact that people are wrong.

*Wrong, when they say things like: "they just had no clue what they were doing durr durr durrrrrrr."

#86
His Name was HYR!!

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Dubozz wrote...

How can you even compare Zaeed's mission with the ending? Zaeed tells you everything during your conversation with him. Didn't you listen him?


I did.

I also notice that you did not answer the question, yourself.

So tell me now, why was Zaeed hunting Cerberus? You claim to know.


Please don't tell me you think ending is well written, because it's not. Bioware knows this. They know that ending sucks big time, that's why we have three "restoration" DLC for the game.

EC- explains the ending. (if you have to explain your story to make it good, well you ****ed )
Leviathan - explains the ending
Citadel - "FORGET ABOUT THE ENDING DLC" --(since nobody likes it even after EC and leviathan) It's a New ending for ME. 

Even Bioware wants us to forget about the ending. You still think the ending is good? Alright, that's your opinion.


Wow. That's a lot of zealotry over something you do not know (my opinion of the ending)!



HYR 2.0 wrote...

And that's where anti-ender logic = fail.

Any more thoughtful posts?


Nice try, but ignoring/deleting what I wrote won't make it go away.

And I have no problem repeating myself if it twists the knife...

Anti-ender logic = fail, because you're deliberately choosing to go with "stupid" as the explanation for everything that doesn't make sense (to you). In some cases, it may be the best explanation. However, being as we are all human, we sometimes get things wrong. As it relates to this, a sensible explanation may exist for something that doesn't make sense to someone. However, if that someone has invoked anti-ender logic to explain those things away then all bets are off: the explanation is "it's stupid" and that is that. You can't win with these guys. It's ridiculous. That's why I ridicule it.

#87
Dubozz

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HYR 2.0 wrote...

Dubozz wrote...

How can you even compare Zaeed's mission with the ending? Zaeed tells you everything during your conversation with him. Didn't you listen him?


I did.

I also notice that you did not answer the question, yourself.

So tell me now, why was Zaeed hunting Cerberus? You claim to know.
 



Should I prove this to some guy from the internet? Go to the youtube and watch some videos if your memory is flawed. 


HYR 2.0 wrote...

Please don't tell me you think ending is well written, because it's not. Bioware knows this. They know that ending sucks big time, that's why we have three "restoration" DLC for the game.

EC- explains the ending. (if you have to explain your story to make it good, well you ****ed )
Leviathan - explains the ending
Citadel - "FORGET ABOUT THE ENDING DLC" --(since nobody likes it even after EC and leviathan) It's a New ending for ME. 

Even Bioware wants us to forget about the ending. You still think the ending is good? Alright, that's your opinion.


Wow. That's a lot of zealotry over something you do not know (my opinion of the ending)! 



Not sure you know the meaning of the word 'zealorty'. Guess you spend to much time and efforts explaining the ending to yourself. I don't think i should link the others threads. And I am the one zealous here. Oh please.

HYR 2.0 wrote...

And that's where anti-ender logic = fail.

Any more thoughtful posts?


Nice try, but ignoring/deleting what I wrote won't make it go away.

And I have no problem repeating myself if it twists the knife...

Anti-ender logic = fail, because you're deliberately choosing to go with "stupid" as the explanation for everything that doesn't make sense (to you). In some cases, it may be the best explanation. However, being as we are all human, we sometimes get things wrong. As it relates to this, a sensible explanation may exist for something that doesn't make sense to someone. However, if that someone has invoked anti-ender logic to explain those things away then all bets are off: the explanation is "it's stupid" and that is that. You can't win with these guys. It's ridiculous. That's why I ridicule it.



Not sure what is the knife you are talking about, but guess you like to repeat yourself many times. Well, if you feel powerful while doing so, I think there is nothing wrong with it. There is nothing complex in the ending. Nothing. There is no need for some special explanation. (except for yourself of course, if you find it appropriate). Bioware chose short and cheap way, did it bad. And was punished for this. Thats all. And please continue to "ridicule" "anti enders". It's very entertaining.

Modifié par Dubozz, 29 septembre 2013 - 08:51 .


#88
angol fear

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Dubozz wrote...

Not sure what is the knife you are talking about, but guess you like to repeat yourself many times. Well, if you feel powerful while doing so, I think there is nothing wrong with it. There is nothing complex in the ending. Nothing. There is no need for some special explanation. (except for yourself of course, if you find it appropriate). Bioware chose short and cheap way, did it bad. And was punished for this. Thats all. And please continue to "ridicule" "anti enders". It's very entertaining.



Sure, there is nothing complex : from a philosophical aspect, it's just close to Niezsche (one of the easiest philosoph to understand maybe), from a literature aspect, it's just a mix of writing from Antiquity, modernism and post modernism. Nothing complex indeed.

#89
Dubozz

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angol fear wrote..

Sure, there is nothing complex : from a philosophical aspect, it's just close to Niezsche (one of the easiest philosoph to understand maybe), from a literature aspect, it's just a mix of writing from Antiquity, modernism and post modernism. Nothing complex indeed.


Philosophical aspect in ME ending. Oh man, two minutes of good laugh. Philosophical aspect? No. Pseudo Philosophical - maybe.  Niezsche? Oh please - "if it's deus ex it must be Niezsche " Yeah Right. Post modernism - yes, thats how we call all the modern bs around us. Oh man.

Don't  defile the word "Philosophy" with video games and other entertainment. I'm telling you like a former Magister In Philosophy and Political science. "Philosophy" is not a word to be used like you want. It has meaning.

Modifié par Dubozz, 29 septembre 2013 - 05:08 .


#90
KaiserShep

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The philosophy, whatever it may be, doesn't really matter all that much if you think the premise is rubbish. If you reject it, and you meet the requirements, the game will reward you regardless.

#91
His Name was HYR!!

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Dubozz wrote...

Should I prove this to some guy from the internet?


Well, you claimed to know the answer. If you do not prove it, nobody can reasonably believe you do or ever did.

So, the answer is YES, unless you're okay with looking like the phony that you probably are.

Why are you still talking, anyway? Over the course of this conversation, all you've done is...


Go to the youtube and watch some videos if your memory is flawed.

Dubozz wrote...

Zaeed tells you everything during your conversation with him. Didn't you listen him?


... avoid giving straight-answers to any question...


Not sure you know the meaning of the word 'zealorty'. Guess you spend to much time and efforts explaining the ending to yourself. I don't think i should link the others threads. And I am the one zealous here. Oh please.

... reply to my posts with feeble "no u"-responses...


Not sure what is the knife you are talking about, but guess you like to repeat yourself many times. Well, if you feel powerful while doing so, I think there is nothing wrong with it. There is nothing complex in the ending. Nothing. There is no need for some special explanation. (except for yourself of course, if you find it appropriate). Bioware chose short and cheap way, did it bad. And was punished for this. Thats all. And please continue to "ridicule" "anti enders". It's very entertaining.

(*after snipping my post down to one out-of-context statement*)
Any more thoughtful posts?

Please don't tell me you think ending is well written, because it's not. Bioware knows this. They know that ending sucks big time, that's why we have three "restoration" DLC for the game. 

EC- explains the ending. (if you have to explain your story to make it good, well you ****ed )
Leviathan - explains the ending 
Citadel - "FORGET ABOUT THE ENDING DLC" --(since nobody likes it even after EC and leviathan) It's a New ending for ME. 

Even Bioware wants us to forget about the ending. You still think the ending is good? Alright, that's your opinion.


... and flat-out ignore the arguments I make, in favor of ranting on irrelevant topics.

I should not even bother, at this point, because by now it is clear you never say anything of substance.

Sadly, this is all I'm getting right now, so I will proceed to overkill all the same.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 29 septembre 2013 - 05:17 .


#92
Dubozz

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HYR 2.0 wrote...

I should not even bother, at this point, because by now it is clear you never say anything of substance.

Sadly, this is all I'm getting right now, so I will proceed to overkill all the same.


 I'm sorry i did not satisfy your righteous urge for "anti enders". I'm sure you will find someone as vigorous as yourself someday. And since you dont even bother, please, there is no need to answer this post. 

#93
His Name was HYR!!

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Dubozz wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

I should not even bother, at this point, because by now it is clear you never say anything of substance.

Sadly, this is all I'm getting right now, so I will proceed to overkill all the same.


 I'm sorry i did not satisfy your righteous urge for "anti enders". I'm sure you will find someone as vigorous as yourself someday. And since you dont even bother, please, there is no need to answer this post.



"Urge for anti-enders?" "Someone vigorous?" [sic]. What on God's green earth are you babbling??

There is still some need to reply: to point out that you have still provided no answer to the question I asked of iakus.

So, you don't know, then. Got it!

#94
Dubozz

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I don't think anyone will talk to you. The only one you want to listen is yourself.

#95
angol fear

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Dubozz wrote...

angol fear wrote..

Sure, there is nothing complex : from a philosophical aspect, it's just close to Niezsche (one of the easiest philosoph to understand maybe), from a literature aspect, it's just a mix of writing from Antiquity, modernism and post modernism. Nothing complex indeed.


Philosophical aspect in ME ending. Oh man, two minutes of good laugh. Philosophical aspect? No. Pseudo Philosophical - maybe.  Niezsche? Oh please - "if it's deus ex it must be Niezsche " Yeah Right. Post modernism - yes, thats how we call all the modern bs around us. Oh man.

Don't  defile the word "Philosophy" with video games and other entertainment. I'm telling you like a former Magister In Philosophy and Political science. "Philosophy" is not a word to be used like you want. It has meaning.



I know the meaning of the word "Philosophy". I've studied philosophy, art and literature. I'm a literature teacher, cinema critic and writer.
You've never read Niezsche, it's quite obvious. Otherwise you wouldn't say such an absurd thing like "if it's deus ex it must be Nietzsche" because I wasn't talking about that. I know what Nietzsche wrote, he's my favourite philosopher.
You don't like Post modernism, that's your opinion, and post modernism doesn't have less value.

#96
Dubozz

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Apparently you have no idea what sarcasm is. Didn't you notice "airquotes"?  

Modifié par Dubozz, 30 septembre 2013 - 03:58 .


#97
angol fear

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Yes, I've noticed the "airquotes".

#98
Dubozz

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angol fear wrote...

Yes, I've noticed the "airquotes".

Sorry if i did offend you. That wasn't my intention.

angol fear wrote...
I've studied philosophy, art and literature. I'm a literature teacher, cinema critic and writer.

 
So as a critic and a writer what do you think about about ME3 ending? Do you think it's good? or dare I say appropriate for a video game? Is it consistent and logical enough for you? Do you like it? Do you think  it is the best ending Bioware could come up with? 

You've never read Niezsche, it's quite obvious.

I'm not sure how did you come to this conclusion. But I actually read  Niezsche
 quite a lot back in the days. He wasn't my favourite author.

You don't like Post modernism, that's your opinion, and post modernism doesn't have less value.

I don't like post modernism. In my opinion it brought nothing new to the philosophy, it encourages moral relativism, it has no meaningful goals,  it rejects existance of  truth, it lacks clarity and consistency(or even content?),  you may point at anything and say "this is art and it has philosphical content and meaning", sounds familiar? That is what you do. I agree that postmodernism brought some fresh air in the literature though.

Modifié par Dubozz, 30 septembre 2013 - 05:56 .


#99
Lazengan

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time constraints, bureaucracy, not enough minerals/vespene gas, EA revenue cycle, Illuminati, Lizardmen, Artistic integrity, liberal arts college degree

#100
angol fear

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Dubozz wrote...

angol fear wrote...

Yes, I've noticed the "airquotes".

Sorry if i did offend you. That wasn't my intention.

angol fear wrote...
I've studied philosophy, art and literature. I'm a literature teacher, cinema critic and writer.

 
So as a critic and a writer what do you think about about ME3 ending? Do you think it's good? or dare I say appropriate for a video game? Is it consistent and logical enough for you? Do you like it? Do you think  it is the best ending Bioware could come up with? 

You've never read Niezsche, it's quite obvious.

I'm not sure how did you come to this conclusion. But I actually read  Niezsche
 quite a lot back in the days. He wasn't my favourite author.

You don't like Post modernism, that's your opinion, and post modernism doesn't have less value.

I don't like post modernism. In my opinion it brought nothing new to the philosophy, it encourages moral relativism, it has no meaningful goals,  it rejects existance of  truth, it lacks clarity and consistency(or even content?),  you may point at anything and say "this is art and it has philosphical content and meaning", sounds familiar? That is what you do. I agree that postmodernism brought some fresh air in the literature though.



No you didn't offend me.  I will answer quickly because I don't have a lot of time and english isn't my native language.
When you talk about Post modernism, I don't know if you talk about Mass Effect's ending or Post modernism in general. Anyway, Mass Effect is post modernist from the beginning. Post modernism uses reference to build its own writing. Mass Effect has always been refering to other's work. That's how it's post modern.
What you didn't like is when the game want the player to interpret its own writing, I think. But this aspect isn't post modernism related.
The whole writing of Mass Effect 3 is based on our representations. The peak of it is the ending.