126 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

Are sure you want to use a definition of postmodernism that's so expansive? By that definition Shakespeare is somewhat postmodernist.

[Tron Mega]

Lazengan wrote...

time constraints, bureaucracy, not enough minerals/vespene gas, EA revenue cycle, Illuminati, Lizardmen, Artistic integrity, liberal arts college degree

<3

[angol fear]

AlanC9 wrote...

Are sure you want to use a definition of postmodernism that's so expansive? By that definition Shakespeare is somewhat postmodernist.

And you can make me say that everything is post modernist. But that's not what I said. Did you hear Michael Nyman's music? That's post modernism : he uses barocco's aesthetic but not to make barocco's music. Did you read Gilles Deleuze? He uses analysis of Nietzsche, liebniz, spinoza to create his own philosphy. You must have seen Tarantino's movies. Post modernism uses explicit references to build his work. Modernism want to be original, new, experimental ; Post modernism is a reaction to that and uses things that already exist. Modernism doesn't want cliché, post modernism uses it (but not to create a real cliché).

[AlanC9]

Hey, I was just reading what you actually wrote, rather than what you meant to write.

I can see how KotOR can be considered postmodernist - it's a reconstruction of the first trilogy. But if just using tropes and whatnot from earlier works makes something postmodern, then everything's postmodern.

Modifié par AlanC9, 02 octobre 2013 - 03:54 .

[Mathias]

Speaking of endings, look what popped up on Reddit's front page:
http://www.reddit.co...ngry_sometimes/

[AlanC9]

 
Link tags are your friend.

[Argentoid]

csm4267 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
There's an unconfirmed rumor that the ending was written by Walters and Casey on their own after the team failed to come up with anything acceptable. This would explain why pre-EC tweets from different members of the writing staff occasionally seemed to disagree about interpretation. But that's more about how than about why.

Ah yes, Mac Walters and Hudson wrote the ending. We have dismissed that claim. If you think about this logically for a minute, Casey and Mac worked for Ray and Greg at the time. Ray was the head RPG guy over at EA, so technically he is Casey and Mac's boss. Anything they do goes and gets overseen by him. This idea that they were locked in a room is just ludicrous. I read that little blurb and the stuff that they claim isn't included in the game was actually included in the game (eg. Cortez lives if you visit him on the Citadel. There are three variations of destroy, not just a color swap. Just shows you how vacuous the people making these claims are). 

No. Patrick Weekes was one of the writers who pointed out who wrote the ending (ergo, Mac Walters). Then there's the whole PW's Penny Arcade account were he states clearly and very detailed what happened in there.

[angol fear]

AlanC9 wrote...

Hey, I was just reading what you actually wrote, rather than what you meant to write.

I can see how KotOR can be considered postmodernist - it's a reconstruction of the first trilogy. But if just using tropes and whatnot from earlier works makes something postmodern, then everything's postmodern.

No offense but you didn't read what I wrote. And I was telling you that you could make me say that everything is post modernism, and you did it!
So I will explain it again : the aesthetic is its own process of writing built by reference.
Kotor isn't post modernist, it doesn't uses star war as a reference, a quotation to build its own writing because it's star wars!
Shakespeare isn't post modernist because the intertext isn't the text.
Let's take another example form music : When Toru Takemitsu uses quotations from Debussy's work, you recognize Debussy in a new form, a new context. It's real quotations, not  influence. That's why the intertext become the text itself. So I repeat what I wrote : Post modernism uses reference to build its own writing. And that's why post modernism is actually very popular (unlike modernism).  And that's why Mass Effect is popular.
I hope my explanation was better this time.

[AlanC9]

angol fear wrote...

No offense but you didn't read what I wrote. And I was telling you that you could make me say that everything is post modernism, and you did it!

I read it. You weren't making sense, possibly due to bad English. You're doing a little better this time around.

So I will explain it again : the aesthetic is its own process of writing built by reference.
Kotor isn't post modernist, it doesn't uses star war as a reference, a quotation to build its own writing because it's star wars!

But it uses the original story as a reference. The fact that both stories are set in the same universe doesn't invalidate that.

Shakespeare isn't post modernist because the intertext isn't the text.
Let's take another example form music : When Toru Takemitsu uses quotations from Debussy's work, you recognize Debussy in a new form, a new context. It's real quotations, not  influence. That's why the intertext become the text itself. So I repeat what I wrote : Post modernism uses reference to build its own writing. And that's why post modernism is actually very popular (unlike modernism).  And that's why Mass Effect is popular.
I hope my explanation was better this time.

You still haven't explained how ME is any more postmodernist than Shakespeare.

[Xamufam]

csm4267 wrote...

Argentoid wrote...
No. Patrick Weekes was one of the writers who pointed out who wrote the ending (ergo, Mac Walters). Then there's the whole PW's Penny Arcade account were he states clearly and very detailed what happened in there.

Did you actually click on the links I typed (which clearly state there was more than one person working on the ending)?

Look, if you're still pissed about the ending or how they "botched" it, just move on. Bioware effectively stopped working on the ending back in June 2012 (minus a couple new lines), and stopped working on this game as of March 2013. You can let this go on for the rest of your life if you want to, but I would highly suggest that you do not buy any future Mass Effect games or stuff from Bioware if you feel they screwed you over. They don't owe you anything at this point.

actully thefinalhour documentary reinforces that it was mac that wrote the ending
from the documentary
"Hudson & Walters spent most of their timefocused on refining the end game, the final hour of the Mass Effect 3 that would be choreographed down to the second.
How to end the trilogy was another subject of great  debate. The massive Illusive Man boss battle was jettisoned, but the teamwas still unsure how to wrap things up. Hudson was pretty sure he wanted this to be the end of Commander Shepards Story, but did that mean he would die or could he survive? For weeks Hudson & Walters discussed the emotions they wanted from players to feel at the end of the game & the wrote dialogue & scenes to support those feelings. One night Walters scribbled down some thoughts on various ways the game could end with the line "Lots of speculation for everyone" at the bttom page"

And that penny Arcade was deatiled what he had done that no one else knew

I have nothing to do with the ending beyond a) having argued
successfully a long time ago that we needed a chance to say goodbye to
our squad, having argued successfully that Cortez shouldn't
automatically die in that shuttle crash, and c) having written Tali's
goodbye bit, as well as a couple of the holo-goodbyes for people I wrote
(Mordin, Kasumi, Jack, etc). 

No other writer did, either, except for our lead. This was entirely
the work of our lead and Casey himself, sitting in a room and going
through draft after draft. 

And honestly, it kind of shows. 

Every other mission in the game had to be held up to the rest of the
writing team, and the writing team then picked it apart and made
suggestions and pointed out the parts that made no sense. This mission?
Casey and our lead deciding that they didn't need to be peer-reviewe.d 

And again, it shows. 

If you'd asked me the themes of Mass Effect 3, I'd break them down as: 

Galactic Alliances 

Friends 

Organics versus Synthetics 

In my personal opinion, the first two got a perfunctory nod. We did
get a goodbye to our friends, but it was in a scene that was divorced
from the gameplay -- a deliberate "nothing happens here" area with one
turret thrown in for no reason I really understand, except possibly to
obfuscate the "nothing happens here"-ness. The best missions in our game
are the ones in which the gameplay and the narrative reinforce each
other. The end of the Genophage campaign exemplifies that for me --
every line of dialog is showing you both sides of the krogan, be they
horrible brutes or proud warriors; the art shows both their bombed-out
wasteland and the beautiful world they once had and could have again;
the combat shows the terror of the Reapers as well as a blatant reminder
of the rachni, which threatened the galaxy and had to be stopped by the
krogan last time. Every line of code in that mission is on target with
the overall message. 

The endgame doesn't have that. I wanted to see banshees attacking you,
and then have asari gunships zoom in and blow them away. I wanted to
see a wave of rachni ravagers come around a corner only to be met by a
wall of krogan roaring a battle cry. Here's the horror the Reapers
inflicted upon each race, and here's the army that you, Commander
Shepard, made out of every race in the galaxy to fight them. 

I personally thought that the Illusive Man conversation was about
twice as long as it needed to be -- something that I've been told in my
peer reviews of my missions and made edits on, but again, this is a
conversation no writer but the lead ever saw until it was already
recorded. I did love Anderson's goodbye. 

For me, Anderson's goodbye is where it ended. The stuff with the
Catalyst just... You have to understand. Casey is really smart and
really analytical. And the problem is that when he's not checked, he
will assume that other people are like him, and will really appreciate
an almost completely unemotional intellectual ending. I didn't hate it,
but I didn't love it. 

And then, just to be a dick... what was SUPPOSED to happen was that,
say you picked "Destroy the Reapers". When you did that, the system was
SUPPOSED to look at your score, and then you'd show a cutscene of Earth
that was either: 

a) Very high score: Earth obviously damaged, but woo victory 

Medium score: Earth takes a bunch of damage from the Crucible
activation. Like dropping a bomb on an already war-ravaged city. Uh,
well, maybe not LIKE that as much as, uh, THAT. 

c) Low score: Earth is a cinderblock, all life on it completely wiped out 

I have NO IDEA why these different cutscenes aren't in there. As far
as I know, they were never cut. Maybe they were cut for budget reasons
at the last minute. I don't know. But holy crap, yeah, I can see how
incredibly disappointing it'd be to hear of all the different ending
possibilities and have it break down to "which color is stuff glowing?"
Or maybe they ARE in, but they're too subtle to really see obvious
differences, and again, that's... yeah. 

Okay, that's a lot to have written for something that's gonna go away in an hour.
 
I still teared up at the ending myself, but really, I was tearing up
for the quick flashbacks to old friends and the death of Anderson. I
wasn't tearing up over making a choice that, as it turned out, didn't
have enough cutscene differentiation on it.
 
And to be clear, I don't even really wish Shepard had gotten a
ride-off-into-sunset ending. I was honestly okay with Shepard
sacrificing himself. I just expected it to be for something with more
obvious differentiation, and a stronger tie to the core themes -- all
three of them.

here is more details
i.imgur.com/W2gwS.jpg

Modifié par Troxa, 04 octobre 2013 - 08:37 .

[AlexMBrennan]

I thought that had turned out to be fake? At least I can't imagine anyone looking to ever work in the industry again posting stuff like that.

[FlamingBoy]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

I thought that had turned out to be fake? At least I can't imagine anyone looking to ever work in the industry again posting stuff like that.

Its difficult to extract all facts from the mess that followed that ending..
However as I recall when Weekes allegedy posted that little snipet into bioware daily life, priestly quickly denounced it as a fake. The question here is... who do you believe?

Whenever its a fake or not does not take precedence over the fact that it makes the ending finally make sense. The ending was terrible because its management was terrible not because of artistic vision or entitlement nonsense.

[Armass81]

Whether its a fake or not, you gotta think who you believe here. If BW says its a fake, you can see a clear conflict of intrest present there, of course they would say its a fake, I mean could they really confess it was real and let the cat out of the bag?

If the lie is more comfortable than the truth, people tend to stick with the lie.

Modifié par Armass81, 04 octobre 2013 - 10:34 .

[Cobalt2113]

Armass81 wrote...

Whether its a fake or not, you gotta think who you believe here. If BW says its a fake, you can see a clear conflict of intrest present there, of course they would say its a fake, I mean could they really confess it was real and let the cat out of the bag?

If the lie is more comfortable than the truth, people tend to stick with the lie.

So your logic for thinking it's real is because BW says it's a fake.

But wouldn't they still have said that if it actually WAS a fake?

[FlamingBoy]

Cobalt2113 wrote...

Armass81 wrote...

Whether its a fake or not, you gotta think who you believe here. If BW says its a fake, you can see a clear conflict of intrest present there, of course they would say its a fake, I mean could they really confess it was real and let the cat out of the bag?

If the lie is more comfortable than the truth, people tend to stick with the lie.

So your logic for thinking it's real is because BW says it's a fake.

But wouldn't they still have said that if it actually WAS a fake?

Your correct, bioware has now payed the price of believability based on past history.

Simply put even if they are telling the truth people are just to burned to believe them.

[Argentoid]

csm4267 wrote...

Argentoid wrote...
No. Patrick Weekes was one of the writers who pointed out who wrote the ending (ergo, Mac Walters). Then there's the whole PW's Penny Arcade account were he states clearly and very detailed what happened in there.

Did you actually click on the links I typed (which clearly state there was more than one person working on the ending)?

Look, if you're still pissed about the ending or how they "botched" it, just move on. Bioware effectively stopped working on the ending back in June 2012 (minus a couple new lines), and stopped working on this game as of March 2013. You can let this go on for the rest of your life if you want to, but I would highly suggest that you do not buy any future Mass Effect games or stuff from Bioware if you feel they screwed you over. They don't owe you anything at this point.

It's PR bull****. BioWare's re-attribution of Patrick Weekes' comments to an unspecified imitator is clearly a belated attempt to protect both BioWare's public image and Weekes' career with the company. Believe what you want to believe. And I'm not pissed off at the ending of ME3. I actually like it. So shut up before making assumptions. Still the ending could have been so much more.

Modifié par Argentoid, 04 octobre 2013 - 10:00 .

[AlanC9]

Does it actually matter who wrote it?

[TheProtheans]

AlanC9 wrote...

Does it actually matter who wrote it?

If a monkey wrote it, how would that make you feel inside for liking something and trying to find deep meaning into something a feces throwing monkey wrote?

[Argentoid]

AlanC9 wrote...

Does it actually matter who wrote it?

Yes.

"Peer review? Pft! Stand back, guys, I'll take this alone!"

[Eterna]

Who cares anymore.

[KaiserShep]

Enough, apparently.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 04 octobre 2013 - 10:16 .

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

Does it actually matter who wrote it?

After EC. no

Now all the writers share responsibility.

[Armass81]

FlamingBoy wrote...

Cobalt2113 wrote...

Armass81 wrote...

Whether its a fake or not, you gotta think who you believe here. If BW says its a fake, you can see a clear conflict of intrest present there, of course they would say its a fake, I mean could they really confess it was real and let the cat out of the bag?

If the lie is more comfortable than the truth, people tend to stick with the lie.

So your logic for thinking it's real is because BW says it's a fake.

But wouldn't they still have said that if it actually WAS a fake?

Your correct, bioware has now payed the price of believability based on past history.

Simply put even if they are telling the truth people are just to burned to believe them.

Since no one is a mindreader, the doubt will linger there, forever likely.

In the end I trust corporations and their pr as little as I trust politicians and their rhetoric, especially after following them for a while. Actions do speak louder than words after all.

Modifié par Armass81, 05 octobre 2013 - 05:39 .