16 réponses à ce sujet

[CaveGnome]

Could anyone give me a little feedback on One Eye Wolf Trading Post v.075? More than a hundred dowloads and no one commented on this version. Is it so bad?

nwvault.ign.com/View.php

CG

Modifié par CaveGnome, 26 septembre 2013 - 06:08 .

[MagicalMaster]

Out of curiosity, what's different about it compared to the version I played?

Also, what type of character would you want me to play through it as? Did it as a fighter originally.

[CaveGnome]

Improvements after OEWTP ver 0.55 (beware, minor spoilers):


- new custom items (a shining brand new compas!!!)
- much improved positioning help (compas and more NPC help)
- custom map is better looking i think
- auto-wipping (if you abandon things / pelts on the forest, you loose 'em)
- better convs (implemented some of your suggestions)
- spellchecking (probably not perfect, but i funneled all text throu Abiword spellchecker)
- experimental lighting system: i tried to make some manual PC controled lights and a automatic daylight system in the trading post. This is experimental, as the infamous Bioware light bug sometimes rears his head, but most of the time, it works.
- slight improvements in animal behaviour (now we have friendly, shy animals and some animal stats were tweaked)
- a few new vfx

I think a thief (stealth mode adds something to hunting) or a ranger can be fun. In the future, i intend to have special things for druids, but i need to finish the "Whack a Hole" module i foolishly promised to April ABC first (yes, i am late... ;-)

[Tim.G]

I'll give it a go as soon as I get through EoB2. Downloading today

[kamal_]

CaveGnome wrote...
- experimental lighting system: i tried to make some manual PC controled lights and a automatic daylight system in the trading post. This is experimental, as the infamous Bioware light bug sometimes rears his head, but most of the time, it works.

Could you point me to somewhere explaining this bug? Googling "light bug nwn1" turned up lots of thing, but none seemed especially relevant.

[cds13]

Well, it'll be sure worth a try, I'll create a lvl1 ranger.Will post comments on the vault, seems a short one. Actually I always drag some low level weapons from the adv. halls of training. Hope this doesn't unbalance the difficulty lvl set for your mod.

Thank you

[henesua]

Glad to see that you are still working on this.

[rogueknight333]

 I always meant to play the second month's ABC submissions, but with one thing and another I was not able to get around to them in a timely fashion, and then kind of forgot about them. At any rate, I have now, however late, responded to your request and played this module. Commentary follows.

The module starts with a decent story hook, as the PC shows up at an isolated trading post ready to take over the duties of his recently deceased uncle as a hunter gathering furs. One can then proceed to wander through the nearby woods, exploring and gaining XP and gold by bringing down game and selling the hides. One can also pursue the main quest of the module, trying to track down some treasure that, according to a map found among your uncle's effects, can be found somewhere deep in the forest. The module uses an innovative system where one travels through what is in fact simply a small handful of recycled areas, but keeps track of one's relative distance from the trading post and other unique points. Thus, in a small module, one can explore indefinitely in what appears to be a vast wildnerness. This is the chief feature of the module, and I found it effective in creating an illusion of a large forest full of dangers in which one could easily get lost. This system could perhaps be improved by adding a bit more variety in what one finds in the various recycled areas (e.g. perhaps in some one could search out plants with medicinal properties, rather than only dealing with animals), but it does well enough for a short adventure like this. The module does a good job of providing an appropriate atmosphere for playing a barbarian, ranger or similar character, as its (apparent) size and free-form structure really helps give one a sense of being a wanderer of the wilds.

On balance an enjoyable module but there were some elements that raised a few questions (Warning: the following contains some spoilers for those who have not yet played):

1) The two special items you find among your uncle's effects (compass and boots) are initially not identified, and one must spend some time hunting hides to gain enough gold to have them identified and thus usable (at least if playing a character without a high lore skill and/or access to an Identify spell). Is this intentional? It would seem that the compass, at least, ought to be usable from the start, though perhaps you wanted to make players appreciate it by the time they are able to use it by first spending some time trying to keep track of exactly where they are in the woods on their own. The boots raise another issue (more below).

2) Boots that provide Haste represent a massive increase in character power, especially for the low level PCs for which this module is designed. I can understand that with all the traveling a character is expected to do that there is a reason to provide a boost to speed, but such an over-powered item risks completely breaking the combat balance. Combat was at a reasonably challenging level before identifying those boots, but mostly quite easy afterwards.

3) The area where one ultimately finds the treasure on the other hand, seems like it could potentially be excessively difficult for certain character types. First there is the graveyard area, where one encounters monsters like Allips and Shadows that possess Damage Reduction (in a module that apparently provides no magical weapons to bypass it). This is not a problem for high-strength PCs, who can do enough damage to win in spite of the reduction, and probably not for most casters either, but some others might have problems. Then one has to worry about Ju-ju wandering around the area (I am assuming combat with this mighty bear is best avoided - at any rate I played a stealthy PC who did so). Those who can sneak around will be fine, but what do you expect those who cannot to do? (Not saying I could not find some way to defeat the bear, just that it seems like it might call for a geater than optimal amount of cheesy tricks to pull off.) Likewise, actually finding the treasure seems to require success at what appears to be some kind of search check: how will those who lack ranks in this skill deal with it? If they fail the check will they just dead-end at that point, with no clear idea of what do do next?

Several other minor issues:
-Chellec will allegedly trade a badger hide for a knife, but did not actually do so. The other trades all appeared to work.
-It seems one could easily click on the mushrooms outside the trading post before realizing what they are and receive some spoilerish info without intending to. It might be better to convey this information by starting a conversation that gives an option like "Are you really sure you want to do this?"
-there were a fair number of spelling errors and such (did not really keep track of them, unfortunately).

Modifié par rogueknight333, 03 octobre 2013 - 06:38 .

[MagicalMaster]

I'm going to skip playing the most recent version for the moment but I will agree with everything that rogueknight333 said since 95% of it is the same.  If you release yet another version I'll play through it but swamped atm.

SPOILERS

I also found the combat much easier with the boots, though I figured it was intended. I killed the bear with a fighter character, though I think I was level 7-8 or something. That said, it was a reasonably tough fight and I suspect most players would have simply died -- are you intending them to have to grind out more experience and level even higher? I also thought the damage reduction on the undead could cause severe problems for some characters. Searching for the thing at the end took a while as well, had to rewander the cave area several times before I lucked out.

Modifié par MagicalMaster, 03 octobre 2013 - 09:33 .

[CaveGnome]

@kamal_
"Could you point me to somewhere explaining this bug? Googling "light bug
nwn1" turned up lots of thing, but none seemed especially relevant."

- Well, i was talking about the bug where the PC can't switch on/off the selected lamp posts, torchs or fires in a reliable way. In fact, there are 2 problems: The afterglow problem that is solved using the special "no ambient light" in the placeable "appearence type" slot and putting a flame (the active light you will switch) in the placeable. The other, hard to control pseudo-random problem induces increased light when you would command a cut-off. When this bug happens there is no way (i am aware) of switching off the light placeable, You can find some relevant info on this subject using the Omnibus database but yes, the info is scarce and dispersed.

The workaround i use is to completely destroy the light objects, saving their state (on or off) and position when the PC exits an area AND spawning the light objects using their saved state to light on/off at their saved position, when entering later the same area. This is not perfect, but it takes care of stucked lights. Experimenting with this, i found that the bug is somehow tied to the area size and number of objects/placeables in the area. This method works perfectly (no bug) with small areas (4 X 4 and under) and reasonably well with medium size areas (up to something like 10 X 10) but if you use big areas the "light bug" occurs frequently (it's worse with lots of placeables) when you try to switch a light and alas, RecomputeStaticLighting() does'nt help. Note that OEWTP uses 2 light systems, the second one, bug free i hope controls zone lighting synched to dawn/day/nightfall/night condition in a try to emulate natural window lighting.

Modifié par CaveGnome, 09 octobre 2013 - 12:00 .

[CaveGnome]

To begin with, big thanks to all for the help and suggestions.



@cds13
"Actually I always drag some low level weapons from the adv. halls of training. Hope this doesn't unbalance the difficulty lvl set for your mod."

- If these weapons are not of the magical sort, you are welcome to use what you want.




@henesua
"Glad to see that you are still working on this."


- Working, yes ;-)  "Whack a Hole" is slowly approaching release (95% complete).
Some updates (thread end) here:
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/193/index/16435264




@rogueknight333
" This system could perhaps be improved by adding a bit more variety in what one finds in the various recycled areas (e.g. perhaps in some one could search out plants with medicinal properties, rather than only dealing with animals)."

- I intend to have something like that in the next version. Perhaps the Trade Post could also specialise in apothicary remedies and medicinal plants, this could add interest for druids and magic users not well versed in hunting arts...



***** Warning: spoilers area. Don't read this if you intend to play *****

"1) The two special items you find among your uncle's effects (compass and boots) are initially not identified, and one must spend some time hunting hides to gain enough gold to have them identified and thus usable. Is this intentional?
It would seem that the compass, at least, ought to be usable from the start, though perhaps you wanted to make players appreciate it by the time they are able to use it by first spending some time trying to keep track of exactly where they are in the woods on their own."

- Yes, it is intentional and No, i don't want the compass to be useable from the start. My idea is for the player to try to reach the native encampment without compass one or two times at first. The player can have the necessary positional info talking with Thomas and if he become lost in the forest, that will teach him some respect for the huge wild outside and reinforce that "last human civilised refuge" feeling i intend to tie to the trading post (ambitious, he... .



"2) Boots that provide Haste represent a massive increase in character power, especially for the low level PCs for which this module is designed. I can understand that with all the traveling a character is expected to do that there is a reason to provide a boost to speed, but such an over-powered item risks completely breaking the combat balance. Combat was at a reasonably challenging level before identifying those boots, but mostly quite easy afterwards."

- You are right. I will reconsider the boots affair... Perhaps boots with a limited haste spell (using charges) will be better balanced, as they need to be activated and you have to spend wisely the charges. In this case, do you think, it will be a good idea to add a way of recharging exhausted boots (native chaman, magic battery, etc.) ? On the other side, my future long term plans for this module are to push the PC to make deep travels in the forest farther than Ka land's to hunt exotic beasts and i fear boring travel times.



"3) The area where one ultimately finds the treasure on the other hand, seems like it could potentially be excessively difficult for certain character types. First there is the graveyard area, where one encounters monsters like Allips and Shadows that possess Damage Reduction (in a module that apparently provides no magical weapons to bypass it). This is not a problem for high-strength PCs, who can do enough damage to win in spite of the reduction, and probably not for most casters either, but some others might have problems. Then one has to worry about Ju-ju wandering around the area (I am assuming combat with this mighty bear is best avoided - at any rate I played a stealthy PC who did so). Those who can sneak around will be fine, but what do you expect those who cannot to do? (Not saying I could not find some way to defeat the bear, just that it seems like it might call for a geater than optimal amount of cheesy tricks to pull off.) "

- The graveyard and Ju_Ju are not a problem. Don't forget this is a module where you can freely navigate around and enter the area of your choice from the orientation (North, South...) you like AND at the exact place you like (proportional to the entry point in the "move to area" Trigger). What i am trying to say is that you can easily bypass dangerous parts of an area and enter unnoticed throu the benign parts (stealth helps but is not required if you play it right).  Fights are not compulsory to finish the game. If you want to fight the Allips, perhaps i can make Chellec help with some protection spell or spirit protection object. Yes if you choose to do it, the Ju-Ju fight is a tough one, doable at level 4 or 5 but you will probably need to use tricks if you are a feeble character.



"Likewise, actually finding the treasure seems to require success at what appears to be some kind of search check: how will those who lack ranks in this skill deal with it? If they fail the check will they just dead-end at that point, with no clear idea of what do do next?"

- Yes, there are a few search checks, but as there is no limit to the number of check try (i twisted AD&D rules a little here , it can be done by anybody even without search points (i completed all the game with a barbarian sporting a -1 search attribute !). All that a "low search points" does is to increase the time needed to check and recheck the suspicious places. With a zero or lower in search skill, you will always have a 1/20 chance to find the hidden things....



"Several other minor issues:
*Chellec will allegedly trade a badger hide for a knife, but did not actually do so. The other trades all appeared to work.
*It seems one could easily click on the mushrooms outside the trading post before realizing what they are and receive some spoilerish info without intending to. It might be better to convey this information by starting a
conversation that gives an option like "Are you really sure you want to do this?"
*there were a fair number of spelling errors and such (did not really keep track of them, unfortunately)."

- It's normal behaviour. Chellec furs and hide inventory is dynamic. Every day the native hunters gives him a random numbers of pelts for every sort of animal. In a bad hunt case where no animals were killed, Chellec could perfectly have nothing to sell. If you don't find the fur you are after, try another day. (note: Chellec fur inventory is cumulative, what you don't buy will add to the next pelt delivery).

- You are right about the mushroom, i will add something like you suggest.

- Sorry for the spelling. Its not my strongest point i suppose. Pity, you didn't keep track of them. If anyone could help me with this, this would be much appreciated.



@MagicalMaster
"I'm going to skip playing the most recent version for the moment but I will agree with everything that rogueknight333 said since 95% of it is the same.  If you release yet another version I'll play through it but
swamped atm.

I also found the combat much easier with the boots, though I figured it was intended. I killed the bear with a fighter character, though I think I was level 7-8 or something. That said, it was a reasonably tough fight and I suspect most players would have simply died -- are you intending them to have to grind out more experience and level even higher?"

- No problem, you are welcome to play next version. Yes, fights are (probably too much) easier with the boots. I killed the Ju-Ju with a level 5 ranger and some (cheesy) tricks but it was a very hard and long fight. A frontal fight would probably need a level 7/8 character (0.75 Ju-Ju is different from the 0.55). There is no intended real experience cap for this module. When to attack (or not) the Ju-Ju is the player choice.

***** Spoilers area END *****

Modifié par CaveGnome, 12 octobre 2013 - 11:27 .

[HipMaestro]

"2) Boots that provide Haste represent a massive increase in character power, especially for the low level PCs for which this module is designed. I can understand that with all the traveling a character is expected to do that there is a reason to provide a boost to speed, but such an over-powered item risks completely breaking the combat balance. Combat was at a reasonably challenging level before identifying those boots, but mostly quite easy afterwards."

CaveGnome wrote...

- You are right. I will reconsider the boots affair... Perhaps boots with a limited haste spell (using charges) will be better balanced, as they need to be activated and you have to spend wisely the charges. In this case, do you think, it will be a good idea to add a way of recharging exhausted boots (native chaman, magic battery, etc.) ? On the other side, my future long term plans for this module are to push the PC to make deep travels in the forest farther than Ka land's to hunt exotic beasts and i fear boring travel times.

This is always a sticky wicket as far as balancing goes.  Speaking as someone who absolutely loathes being strapped with the game's default run speed, it comes down to the +AC and extra APR w/full AB and/or spells per round.  In balancing, the speed only moderately impacts the balance, but the other non-dispellable properties are significant.  Permahaste, if available in the module, is always the first item targeted for acquisition by a player.

I've had some success with items bestowing charges of Expeditious Retreat and usually some method like a merchant who will restore charges.  I've only used the caster level 5 version but it may be possible to customize a longer duration spell effect (coming from a non-scripter). Just an example of one way to eliminate the overpowering of permahaste items...

[MagicalMaster]

The problem with haste is that it's so powerful. Haste is like getting a 4 AC and 4 AB buff for a melee character, for example. You can't balance for both Haste and non-Haste without a ton of effort that usually doesn't even work out.

In other words, providing Haste at low levels isn't technically a problem...IF you balance for people with Haste. But if you don't assume people have Haste and they actually do, they'll crush everything.

[rogueknight333]

CaveGnome wrote...

- Yes, it is intentional...My idea is for the player to try to reach the native encampment without compass one or two times at first...that will teach him some respect for the huge wild outside and reinforce that "last human civilised refuge" feeling i intend to tie to the trading post...

Fair enough then. Actually I like that idea, it is rather clever.

CaveGnome wrote...
 Perhaps boots with a limited haste spell (using charges) will be better balanced, as they need to be activated and you have to spend wisely the charges...

I think this would accomplish the exact opposite of what you want. With limited charges, players would save their haste spells for combat, where it is really needed, and avoid wasting them for routine travel (or at least that is what I would do). A better plan would be to provide an item with numerous casts of Expeditious Retreat (as HipMaestro suggests) or a custom scripted power increasing movement speed semi-permanently but not providing the other benefits of Haste. In this short module, I actually do not think there is a really pressing need for a speed boost, since though a player could choose to push very deep into the forest there is no real necessity for him to do so. If indeed you are planning to expand this into a much larger module at some point though it might become more of an issue.

CaveGnome wrote...

...Don't forget this is a module where you can freely navigate around and enter the area of your choice from the orientation (North, South...) you like AND at the exact place you like (proportional to the entry point in the "move to area" Trigger). What i am trying to say is that you can easily bypass dangerous parts of an area and enter unnoticed throu the benign parts (stealth helps but is not required if you play it right).  Fights are not compulsory to finish the game...

True enough, but this still leaves a problem in that I do not see how a player is supposed to know, in advance, what part of an area he can safely enter, unless you expect them to just reload if they come in at an unfortunate point. Perhaps along with the information provided by Thomas and Chellec about where to find certain areas you could also include some hints about the precise direction from which it is best to enter those areas.

CaveGnome wrote...

- Yes, there are a few search checks, but as there is no limit to the number of check try (i twisted AD&D rules a little here , it can be done by anybody even without search points...

That should work then, although there is one potential problem in that an impatient player with a low search skill might just assume nothing is happening and that he has run into a bug or something. It might be good to make the player's journal (or something) clearly communicate that he may need to spend a certain amount of time searching around.

[CaveGnome]

**** Beware! Some spoilers included ****

rogueknight333 wrote...
I think this would accomplish the exact opposite of what you want. With limited charges, players would save their haste spells for combat, where it is really needed, and avoid wasting them for routine travel (or at least that is what I would do). A better plan would be to provide an item with numerous casts of Expeditious Retreat (as HipMaestro suggests) or a custom scripted power increasing movement speed semi-permanently but not providing the other benefits of Haste. In this short module, I actually do not think there is a really pressing need for a speed boost, since though a player could choose to push very deep into the forest there is no real necessity for him to do so. If indeed you are planning to expand this into a much larger module at some point though it might become more of an issue.

- Right you are, sir. It's a done deal   future forest boots, custom scripted powered will be... This work will help another old suffering module of mine too. No pressing need for a speed boost ? Not sure... Sometimes you will have to push deep in the forest just to find Ka Land as every play has a unique different position for the holy place. It could be far from the trading post. If you lack luck, prepare to walk a lot.

CaveGnome wrote...
...What i am trying to say is that you can easily bypass dangerous parts of an area and enter unnoticed throu the benign parts...

rogueknight333 wrote...
True enough, but this still leaves a problem in that I do not see how a player is supposed to know, in advance, what part of an area he can safely enter, unless you expect them to just reload if they come in at an unfortunate point. Perhaps along with the information provided by Thomas and Chellec about where to find certain areas you could also include some hints about the precise direction from which it is best to enter those areas.

- The player can more or less infer it with the map (a very simple map really if he decides to go direct to the part of interest, he can do it using the compass to navigate the surrounding... I would add, that in case the situation goes bleak, you can break the fight, flee (ok, could be difficult without speed boots) and return later knowing where danger is. Another possibility would be to scout the zone in stealth mode or using a familiar for wizards. But yes, i expect the player to reload or respawn at some unfortunate point. I know the ideal case is finishing a game in one go without dying, but practically, computer RPGs (and NWN modules rarely except this rule) have a bad player survival rate the first time you discover major new threats. They tend to push the "save/reload, learn by dying" thingy. Where a real DM could mend some flagrant broken luck or improvise something to cushion initial contact, computers will mercylessly kill players. It's sad to say, in a fight using RPG game, if you don't die a couple of times, the game is generally too easy and boring (for fight lovers that is To summarize: I think the player has already a lot of information at his disposal and don't want spoiling too much the final act, but i will try to give something to protect players from the undead.

CaveGnome wrote...
Yes, there are a few search checks, but as there is no limit to the number of check try, it can be done by anybody even without search points...

rogueknight333 wrote...
That should work then, although there is one potential problem in that an impatient player with a low search skill might just assume nothing is happening and that he has run into a bug or something. It might be good to make the player's journal (or something) clearly communicate that he may need to spend a certain amount of time searching around.

- Perhaps the journal notes where not sufficiently clear. I will try to improve this.

Modifié par CaveGnome, 09 octobre 2013 - 02:51 .

[MagicalMaster]

CaveGnome wrote...

I know the ideal case is finishing a game in one go without dying, but practically, computer RPGs (and NWN modules rarely except this rule) have a bad player survival rate the first time you discover major new threats. They tend to push the "save/reload, learn by dying" thingy. Where a real DM could mend some flagrant broken luck or improvise something to cushion initial contact, computers will mercylessly kill players. It's sad to say, in a fight using RPG game, if you don't die a couple of times, the game is generally too easy and boring (for fight lovers that is To summarize: I think the player has already a lot of information at his disposal and don't want spoiling too much the final act, but i will try to give something to protect players from the undead.

The important thing is that the death should feel fair.  Surprising a player with something they had no reasonable way to predict just seems like a "HA!  Gotcha!" moment.  As the player, you should feel you died because you did something wrong and you have some ideas on what to fix (or you have an idea of how to discover what to fix).

I mean, you could put a trap on the left side of the bridge that instantly kills players and can't be detected.  They'd probably figure out they need to stay on the right but they have no reason to suspect that would be the case and no indication given besides simply dying.

[CaveGnome]

MagicalMaster wrote...

The important thing is that the death should feel fair.  Surprising a player with something they had no reasonable way to predict just seems like a "HA!  Gotcha!" moment.  As the player, you should feel you died because you did something wrong and you have some ideas on what to fix (or you have an idea of how to discover what to fix).

I mean, you could put a trap on the left side of the bridge that instantly kills players and can't be detected.  They'd probably figure out they need to stay on the right but they have no reason to suspect that would be the case and no indication given besides simply dying.

Right, i feel exactly the same thing. As a DM, i consider it a necessity for players to always have a reasonable way to avoid death and a logical one if possible. One of the funniest part in RPG is letting players figure how to win the day discovering ennemy weakenesses, when odds where apparently against them at first. For that, there must be some hints available and/or something the player can do to counter threats before they occur.

Modifié par CaveGnome, 12 octobre 2013 - 11:17 .