203 réponses à ce sujet

[Arctican]

megabeast37215 wrote...

ISHYGDDT wrote...

It would be better to skip the N7 shadow on the N7 shadow.

This. 

Bad character is bad and should feel.... Bad. Just a much of a novelty as the Krolord. 

You break my heart mega.

Granted, she;s not a top-tier kit, but she's certainly nowhere close to being bottom tier. After-all, she's still has Tactical Cloak.

[bondiboy]

Arctican wrote...

megabeast37215 wrote...

ISHYGDDT wrote...

It would be better to skip the N7 shadow on the N7 shadow.

This. 

Bad character is bad and should feel.... Bad. Just a much of a novelty as the Krolord. 

You break my heart mega.

Granted, she;s not a top-tier kit, but she's certainly nowhere close to being bottom tier. After-all, she's still has Tactical Cloak.

 Agree . A character that can OHK every mook + phantoms x 2 in couple of seconds  (with strong SS build) is not exactly useless.

Modifié par stricko, 30 septembre 2013 - 04:16 .

[Titus Thongger]

shadow vs geth and Cerberus is awesome. not so much vs lolreapers and lolecctors

[bondiboy]

Titus Thongger wrote...

shadow vs geth and Cerberus is awesome. not so much vs lolreapers and lolecctors

True. Would have to spec into ES and go damage in cloak  to be reasonably effective esp against collectors .

[Deerber]

Arctican wrote...

megabeast37215 wrote...

ISHYGDDT wrote...

It would be better to skip the N7 shadow on the N7 shadow.

This. 

Bad character is bad and should feel.... Bad. Just a much of a novelty as the Krolord. 

You break my heart mega.

Granted, she;s not a top-tier kit, but she's certainly nowhere close to being bottom tier. After-all, she's still has Tactical Cloak.

If played as a sniper, then she's not that bad because TC, yeah.

If played as a SS-centric build, she's probably in the worst 5 kits of this game.


That is, when playing with a full, competent team.

[bondiboy]

Deerber wrote...

Arctican wrote...

megabeast37215 wrote...

ISHYGDDT wrote...

It would be better to skip the N7 shadow on the N7 shadow.

This. 

Bad character is bad and should feel.... Bad. Just a much of a novelty as the Krolord. 

You break my heart mega.

Granted, she;s not a top-tier kit, but she's certainly nowhere close to being bottom tier. After-all, she's still has Tactical Cloak.

If played as a sniper, then she's not that bad because TC, yeah.

If played as a SS-centric build, she's probably in the worst 5 kits of this game.


That is, when playing with a full, competent team.

Wait wat ? She is the nemesis of Cerberus. Full competent team ? Yeh well nothing left to kill in that case but there is something about her that is unique. It s her Shadow strike . Against Cerberus I would rate her in the top 5

[DisturbedPsic0]

Not Paynezz wrote...

>OP suggests a completely viable idea

>Puts logical arguments forward

>Everyone goes apeshlt at him for suggesting a horrible idea even though SS is very meh

Wait did I miss a step?

OP's build makes sense, and is decent, but there are other kits that can do the same thing. I personally don't understand gimping a unique power you can't use on any other kit. Especially when Shadow Strike is pretty powerful if used right.

Not Paynezz wrote...

IMO the shadow isn't a very good kit overall and SS has a very bad habit of getting you killed and often I find myself hiding in cover waiting for shields to regen or I'm franticly searching for a shielded target that isn't an atlas to SS so I can get my shields back. Overall I prefer the ES/Sniper hybrid build but super ninja melee build is more fun even if less effective, which applies to 90% of melee kits in this game because biower doesn't realise that you need high HP to melee effectively

What difficulty are you playing on? I find her much harder to play on Silver than Gold. Silver there just aren't enough shielded enemies to take advantage of shield drain on Shadow Strike. In Gold, they are everywhere, giving her great survivability.  Shadow Strike isn't that viable on Platinum, so I just don't take her there.  I just don't get sniping with her. She doesn't have a good stun move, and there are other sniping infiltrators that can do the same thing. It's just a redundant (and less effective) kit if you do that, in my opinion.

[bondiboy]

^^^ Unless stated otherwise all discussions on this forum are re gold. Well to me anyway

Modifié par stricko, 30 septembre 2013 - 11:47 .

[OneTrueShot]

Has anyone tried KFC without the chicken? Because it's pretty lack luster.

[bondiboy]

OneTrueShot wrote...

Has anyone tried KFC without the chicken? Because it's pretty lack luster.

Shouldn't you be training for the 25 hr marathon ?

[Sailears]

Titus Thongger wrote...

shadow vs geth and Cerberus is awesome. not so much vs lolreapers and lolecctors

Depends on the build.

You do have tactical cloak.
You do have a weapon.

Personally I find reapers the easiest with her (unless glacier), and most of collecters aren't worse than the other factions either (HM negates all abomination explosions, she deals with scions easily (unless 3 standing next to each other)).

[Arctican]

Deerber wrote...

Arctican wrote...

megabeast37215 wrote...

ISHYGDDT wrote...

It would be better to skip the N7 shadow on the N7 shadow.

This. 

Bad character is bad and should feel.... Bad. Just a much of a novelty as the Krolord. 

You break my heart mega.

Granted, she;s not a top-tier kit, but she's certainly nowhere close to being bottom tier. After-all, she's still has Tactical Cloak.

If played as a sniper, then she's not that bad because TC, yeah.

If played as a SS-centric build, she's probably in the worst 5 kits of this game.


That is, when playing with a full, competent team.

That's a myth. I have played with very competent team using SS-centric build and can keep up with most kits except, of course, the insanely powerful or cheesy. Of course, when using a SS-centric build, people need to realize that you have other tools are your disposal to kill. When it's not ideal to use SS, it perfectly ok to use your gun or ES or heavy melee, or a combination depending on the situation.

[Fortack]

Arctican wrote...

That's a myth. I have played with very competent team using SS-centric build and can keep up with most kits except, of course, the insanely powerful or cheesy. Of course, when using a SS-centric build, people need to realize that you have other tools are your disposal to kill. When it's not ideal to use SS, it perfectly ok to use your gun or ES or heavy melee, or a combination depending on the situation.

Shadow Strike (and also ES) simply take too long to be useful in a game with (up to) 3 other fast killers. The time it takes to Cloak > SS one enemy > SS another one doesn't come close to what a level 0 kit with a good gun can do (in effective hands).

Playing the Shadow like she's supposed to be played = gimping your killing power on purpose. SS and ES are gimmicks - fun to use, and, sometimes, they do add some nice utility - but they are horrible abilities to kill stuff quickly with, unfortunately.

[Arctican]

Fortack wrote...

Arctican wrote...

That's a myth. I have played with very competent team using SS-centric build and can keep up with most kits except, of course, the insanely powerful or cheesy. Of course, when using a SS-centric build, people need to realize that you have other tools are your disposal to kill. When it's not ideal to use SS, it perfectly ok to use your gun or ES or heavy melee, or a combination depending on the situation.

Shadow Strike (and also ES) simply take too long to be useful in a game with (up to) 3 other fast killers. The time it takes to Cloak > SS one enemy > SS another one doesn't come close to what a level 0 kit with a good gun can do (in effective hands).

Playing the Shadow like she's supposed to be played = gimping your killing power on purpose. SS and ES are gimmicks - fun to use, and, sometimes, they do add some nice utility - but they are horrible abilities to kill stuff quickly with, unfortunately.

I agree that SS's animation time makes it not ideal for certain situations. I must emphasize that I DO NOT advocate using SS for everything. For example, if there is an enemy right in front of you, it's better to use your gun and/or heavy melee. Thus, an expert Shadow knows to mix in Shadow Strike with gunplay, tactical use of ES and heavy melee. Spamming SS and ES mindlessly is gimping your killing power. The former is not.

And, saying a level 0 kit with a good gun can outdo a level 20 Shadow is a vast exaggeration and simply not true. For example, Shadow has the ability to get the target outline of the enemies that are not in vision. Before the level 0 kit even opens fire, the SS would have already hit, and the Shadow is in position to kill the next target with SS, gun, melee, whichever is faster. Another example, Phantoms. Without a CC power or weapon damage bonuses, guns are fairly limited on their own. A good gun like the Harrier and Hurricane will simply make the Phantoms flip a lot and activate her ridiculous DR. Javelin will get shield gated even with headshot. Shotguns and Talon are good, but you need to be in good range. SS OHK Phantoms is a smooth and easy affair.

Modifié par Arctican, 30 septembre 2013 - 06:06 .

[Sailears]

Arctican wrote...

Fortack wrote...

Arctican wrote...

That's a myth. I have played with very competent team using SS-centric build and can keep up with most kits except, of course, the insanely powerful or cheesy. Of course, when using a SS-centric build, people need to realize that you have other tools are your disposal to kill. When it's not ideal to use SS, it perfectly ok to use your gun or ES or heavy melee, or a combination depending on the situation.

Shadow Strike (and also ES) simply take too long to be useful in a game with (up to) 3 other fast killers. The time it takes to Cloak > SS one enemy > SS another one doesn't come close to what a level 0 kit with a good gun can do (in effective hands).

Playing the Shadow like she's supposed to be played = gimping your killing power on purpose. SS and ES are gimmicks - fun to use, and, sometimes, they do add some nice utility - but they are horrible abilities to kill stuff quickly with, unfortunately.

I agree that SS's animation time makes it not ideal for certain situations. I must emphasize that I DO NOT advocate using SS for everything. For example, if there is an enemy right in front of you, it's better to use your gun and/or heavy melee. Thus, an expert Shadow knows to mix in Shadow Strike with gunplay, tactical use of ES and heavy melee. Spamming SS and ES is gimping your killing power. The former is not.

And, saying a level 0 kit with a good gun can outdo a level 20 Shadow is a vast exaggeration and simply not true. For example, Shadow has the ability to get the target outline of the enemies that are not in vision. Before the level 0 kit even opens fire, the SS would have already hit, and the Shadow is in position to kill the next target with SS, gun, melee, whichever is faster. Another example, Phantoms. Without a CC power or weapon damage bonuses, guns are fairly limited on their own. A good gun like the Harrier and Hurricane will simply make the Phantoms flip a lot and activate her ridiculous DR. Javelin will get shield gated even with headshot. Shotguns and Talon are good, but you need to be in good range. SS OHK a Phantoms is a smooth and easy affair.

This sentence right here, I totally agree.

Going around trying to SS/melee everything is slow and inefficient, and probably a huge reason for bad rep.

Mixing all forms of attack with medthodical movement and skillful dodging allows her to keep up and even do better than most other non-cheese builds, depending on player/map/faction/on or off host of course...

Modifié par Curunen, 30 septembre 2013 - 06:07 .

[Fortack]

Arctican wrote...

I agree that SS's animation time makes it not ideal for certain situations. I must emphasize that I DO NOT advocate using SS for everything. For example, if there is an enemy right in front of you, it's better to use your gun and/or heavy melee. Thus, an expert Shadow knows to mix in Shadow Strike with gunplay, tactical use of ES and heavy melee. Spamming SS and ES mindlessly is gimping your killing power. The former is not.

True. Problem is that with good teammates there are very few situations where using those powers tactically make much sense. In my experience most of the times a Shadow uses SS or ES the target(s) are already dead before the power(s) connect, or more damage would have been dealt just shooting stuff with Cloak's damage bonus.

And, saying a level 0 kit with a good gun can outdo a level 20 Shadow is a vast exaggeration and simply not true. For example, Shadow has the ability to get the target outline of the enemies that are not in vision. Before the level 0 kit even opens fire, the SS would have already hit, and the Shadow is in position to kill the next target with SS, gun, melee, whichever is faster. Another example, Phantoms. Without a CC power or weapon damage bonuses, guns are fairly limited on their own. A good gun like the Harrier and Hurricane will simply make the Phantoms flip a lot and activate her ridiculous DR. Javelin will get shield gated even with headshot. Shotguns and Talon are good, but you need to be in good range. SS OHK Phantoms is a smooth and easy affair.

The Javelin (with Phasics of course) can OHK (on host) Phantoms perfectly fine. You can fire that weapon faster than you can cast SS (or ES), it can kill multiple targets with a single shot, plus it has infinite wallhack. Also, Lolreegar

I was exaggerating obviously, but I think you got the point. Remember that all I said assumes playing on a good team and that makes all the difference. I like the Shadow for solos or with bad pugs. She's the coolest Infiltrator IMO; exceptional against single targets wherever they are, high risk gameplay and stabbing stuff in their backs never gets old. When playing games with friends I pick another kit though.

[Sailears]

Fortack wrote...


True. Problem is that with good teammates there are very few situations where using those powers tactically make much sense. In my experience most of the times a Shadow uses SS or ES the target(s) are already dead before the power(s) connect, or more damage would have been dealt just shooting stuff with Cloak's damage bonus.

Oh absolutely, if you're targeting the same mook as a teammate you're going to be hitting thin air.

The most difficult thing playing the shadow in a competent team is picking a path - the targets which your teammates will get to in 10 seconds, not the ones they're about to hit next. The nice thing is that SS can get to targets well out of vision of most other characters (unless a javelin user), often with a group around giving you sufficient targets for yourself before another player gets there.

I reserve ES for crowd control situations - either softening up a group (tech burst with ammo sometimes), dealing with a line of say 3 spread out abominations (where heavy melee would be too slow), circle hacks, and other occasions that aren't easy to describe in a sentence.

[Fortack]

Curunen wrote...

Oh absolutely, if you're targeting the same mook as a teammate you're going to be hitting thin air.

I always feel bad when I kill something just before a Shadow appears out of thin behind it. Almost as bad as stealing a Krogan headbutt kill.

The most difficult thing playing the shadow in a competent team is picking a path - the targets which your teammates will get to in 10 seconds, not the ones they're about to hit next. The nice thing is that SS can get to targets well out of vision of most other characters (unless a javelin user), often with a group around giving you sufficient targets for yourself before another player gets there.

Yeah, finding the right path is probably the most important thing with good teammates. There is little as annoying as arriving somewhere too late with nothing left to kill, esp when it happens often. Sometimes bad pugs ain't that bad after all

[Arctican]

Fortack wrote...

Arctican wrote...

I agree that SS's animation time makes it not ideal for certain situations. I must emphasize that I DO NOT advocate using SS for everything. For example, if there is an enemy right in front of you, it's better to use your gun and/or heavy melee. Thus, an expert Shadow knows to mix in Shadow Strike with gunplay, tactical use of ES and heavy melee. Spamming SS and ES mindlessly is gimping your killing power. The former is not.

True. Problem is that with good teammates there are very few situations where using those powers tactically make much sense. In my experience most of the times a Shadow uses SS or ES the target(s) are already dead before the power(s) connect, or more damage would have been dealt just shooting stuff with Cloak's damage bonus.

If the target is dead before the power hits, that just means it wasn;t optimal to use SS or ES then. And speaking from experiences Shadowing Platinum often with really good teams, unless I;m in a team of GI Talon or the likes, there are plenty enough times where SS or ES makes more sense to use. A quick example is on extraction wave of Cerberus Platinum, ES+ a heavy melee cancel can kill 3 dragoons/hunters in about 2 to 3 seconds. The way that those units rush at you makes catching 3 of them in a group really easy. Phantoms are generally better to SS then to shoot, especially from a distance. Brutes can die with one SS plus two cloaked Wraith shots or one heavy melee.

The Javelin (with Phasics of course) can OHK (on host) Phantoms perfectly fine. You can fire that weapon faster than you can cast SS (or ES), it can kill multiple targets with a single shot, plus it has infinite wallhack. Also, Lolreegar

I was exaggerating obviously, but I think you got the point. Remember that all I said assumes playing on a good team and that makes all the difference. I like the Shadow for solos or with bad pugs. She's the coolest Infiltrator IMO; exceptional against single targets wherever they are, high risk gameplay and stabbing stuff in their backs never gets old. When playing games with friends I pick another kit though.

You can't Lolreegar from half-way across the map. Shadow Strike can however go as far as the orange target reticule goes. It's not like the Shadow can;t use the Reegar herself either. And can you really OHK Phantoms with Phasics on a level 0 kit? Looking at Kalence, the ammo damage from Phasics is around 2319, well below the Barriers of Gold Phantoms. A headshot will do 4831 damage in which about 700 goes to kill the remaining barriers and the rest gets gated 75%. I don;t see how this is possible.

Anyways, I do get what you mean. She's not the kit to you pick to score-**** or speed run, but my point is the Shadow shouldn;t be underestimated. I do specifically pick the Shadow when playing with good teammates just to see how she fares against the better kits. It's a nice challenge plus her performance does surprise me from time to time.


EDIT - stupid formating lol. I suck. BTW, Curunen makes excellent points on choosing the right path of destruction.

Modifié par Arctican, 30 septembre 2013 - 07:25 .

[Fortack]

Arctican wrote...

If the target is dead before the power hits, that just means it wasn;t optimal to use SS or ES then. And speaking from experiences Shadowing Platinum often with really good teams, unless I;m in a team of GI Talon or the likes, there are plenty enough times where SS or ES makes more sense to use. A quick example is on extraction wave of Cerberus Platinum, ES+ a heavy melee cancel can kill 3 dragoons/hunters in about 2 to 3 seconds. The way that those units rush at you makes catching 3 of them in a group really easy. Phantoms are generally better to SS then to shoot, especially from a distance. Brutes can die with one SS plus two cloaked Wraith shots or one heavy melee.

Interesting. The only good Shadows I've seen in good team games were the ones who focused on weapon damage primarily, which basically means playing a weaker other Infiltrator most of the time. The real issue IMO is the time required to execute those attacks. Grenades or biotic/tech combos are equally effective and can be timed better for greater effect.

You can't Lolreegar from half-way across the map. Shadow Strike can however go as far as the orange target reticule goes. It's not like the Shadow can;t use the Reegar herself either. And can you really OHK Phantoms with Phasics on a level 0 kit? Looking at Kalence, the ammo damage from Phasics is around 2319, well below the Barriers of Gold Phantoms. A headshot will do 4831 damage in which about 700 goes to kill the remaining barriers and the rest gets gated 75%. I don;t see how this is possible.

Anyways, I do get what you mean. She's not the kit to you pick to score-**** or speed run, but my point is the Shadow shouldn;t be underestimated. I do specifically pick the Shadow when playing with good teammates just to see how she fares against the better kits. It's a nice challenge plus her performance does surprise me from time to time.


EDIT - stupid formating lol. I suck. BTW, Curunen makes excellent points on choosing the right path of destruction.

I'm only a Krogan scientist who doesn't promote so please don't bother me with complicated level 0 math

All I know is that I can OHK gold phantoms with my Jav on all the kits I tried it on (which are many), but that's with the extra weapon/headshot bonus of course.

I would love to see a good Shadow in action some time. Are you on PC?

[Sailears]

I must admit, I've commited a cardinal sin and stuck the reegar on her for the first time today having barely used it before (I don't even have the shotgun challenge for it!) - makes you forget to use melee in close range... although funnily enough I find the range limit pretty annoying, being used to the wraith.

Artican, apologies if you've already posted it and I've missed it, but what build/gear do you use for her in platinum? I keep going backwards and forwards between equipment, can't seem to settle on anything.

Edit: Fortack I'd be up for a match if you're free sometime.

Modifié par Curunen, 30 septembre 2013 - 08:10 .

[OneTrueShot]

stricko wrote...

OneTrueShot wrote...

Has anyone tried KFC without the chicken? Because it's pretty lack luster.

Shouldn't you be training for the 25 hr marathon ?

I totally am. I'm on Defiance right now.

[Arctican]

@ Fortack

Yah, timing is very important with the Shadow. It takes a bit of practice to know which string of attacks would yield the best TTK in different situations. Also important is the balance between being aggressive and being cautious. It's easy to get into the Shadow, but rather difficult to master the Shadow to her full potential.

Unfortunately, I'm on the Xbox. I wished the option to transfer from the Xbox to PC exists. I would love to play with a lot of the PC people here and try some of the fun husk modes. And Chakram Launcher.


@ Curunen
My standard SS-centric Shadow build.

For gear, I alternate between Geth Scanner and Responder Loadout. Geth Scanner makes judging when to SS much easier. Responder Loadout allows me to be super aggressive and get away with more risky attacks. With weapons, sometimes, I leave out the Acolyte so I have the option to consistently get 2 SS with one cloak cycle although killing boss shields is a bit of a pain. Another weapon combination is the Disciple Omni-blade with Hurricane secondary for bosses.

Modifié par Arctican, 30 septembre 2013 - 09:33 .

[Sailears]

Arctican wrote...

@ Curunen
My standard SS-centric Shadow build.

For gear, I alternate between Geth Scanner and Responder Loadout. Geth Scanner makes judging when to SS much easier. Responder Loadout allows me to be super aggressive and get away with more risky attacks. With weapons, sometimes, I leave out the Acolyte so I have the option to consistently get 2 SS with one cloak cycle although killing boss shields is a bit of a pain. Another weapon combination is the Disciple Omni-blade with Hurricane secondary for bosses.

Thanks, that's very helpful to look at.

I wish I could learn to love geth scanner because it's unbelievably useful, but I'm one of those weirdos who can't stand hunter mode!

I don't know many people who use both damage cloak and bonus power - is it just for the extra cloak convenience after on SS, to have an extra second or so for executing the next attack? Especially without shield drain, what's your usual SS pattern? Do you ever find yourself pressed for time?
I must say come to think of it I find myself rarely doing two SS in a row unless desperately needing shields or to escape, as it's often more efficient to shoot after one SS, so I wonder if the damage evo might work out better.

Ah the acolyte - I tried the acolyte, but found the mere presence of it in the loadout to make it pot luck whether the heavy weapon mods weight take effect - my standard loadout is wraith with omniblade+hvb so cooldowns were pretty horrible in some games and I had to ditch it .

Here's my favoured build at the moment, which is heavier on weapon damage to make up for lack of dedicated shield weapon. I've got into the habit of shooting phantoms/pyros after SS if they're at full health, or shooting things beforehand.

[Arctican]

Curunen wrote...

Arctican wrote...

@ Curunen
My standard SS-centric Shadow build.

For gear, I alternate between Geth Scanner and Responder Loadout. Geth Scanner makes judging when to SS much easier. Responder Loadout allows me to be super aggressive and get away with more risky attacks. With weapons, sometimes, I leave out the Acolyte so I have the option to consistently get 2 SS with one cloak cycle although killing boss shields is a bit of a pain. Another weapon combination is the Disciple Omni-blade with Hurricane secondary for bosses.

Thanks, that's very helpful to look at.

I wish I could learn to love geth scanner because it's unbelievably useful, but I'm one of those weirdos who can't stand hunter mode!

I don't know many people who use both damage cloak and bonus power - is it just for the extra cloak convenience after on SS, to have an extra second or so for executing the next attack? Especially without shield drain, what's your usual SS pattern? Do you ever find yourself pressed for time?
I must say come to think of it I find myself rarely doing two SS in a row unless desperately needing shields or to escape, as it's often more efficient to shoot after one SS, so I wonder if the damage evo might work out better.

Yes, I went damage for the ability to kill Platinum Phantoms and Pyros with one SS and shorten other attack combo TTK. I went Bonus Power for both the reasons that you stated. Without Bonus Power, SS is so much more risky to use. Damage cloak does not give you a lot of room to think too much, so I did find myself pressed for time in the very beginning. Now after a lot of practice, it's prety much second nature, so time is not really a issue anymore. It's possible to do two SS in a row, but with a very short window. Still the option is there for dealing with multiple Phantoms and mooks.

Ah the acolyte - I tried the acolyte, but found the mere presence of it in the loadout to make it pot luck whether the heavy weapon mods weight take effect - my standard loadout is wraith with omniblade+hvb so cooldowns were pretty horrible in some games and I had to ditch it .

Here's my favoured build at the moment, which is heavier on weapon damage to make up for lack of dedicated shield weapon. I've got into the habit of shooting phantoms/pyros after SS if they're at full health, or shooting things beforehand.

I have no trouble with the Acolyte affecting the cooldown. I always make sure to refresh to the kit-selction menu to ensure the weight mod penalty don;t take effect. Also do not go to the weapon-selection menu afterwards unless you have to.

Your Shadow has very good survivabilty which is pretty crucial on Platinum. Here's an interesting tid-bit. Your light melee gives you 85% DR like the Slayer. If you choose DR on Shadow Strike, you can get up to 125% DR, which is essentially near 100% effective DR. This is useful for eating the occasional unavoidable Atlas rockets, and Banshee nova/warp. Even the light melee by itself can prevent you from getting shield one-shotted.