151 réponses à ce sujet

[eternal_napalm]

Yeah, after watching extended gameplay, this game looks pretty bad. In various different ways. I think it won't be too long until Angry Joe tears this game a new one. Mocking the lame npcs in a most hilarious way to boot.

[Addai]

OdanUrr wrote...
I haven't watched the entire game if that's what you're saying. May I presume you have? The little I did watch made me doubt the voice acting but I thought I would at least have the freedom to approach each objective differently.

The devs have basically said that they made it linear on purpose. You can choose to go left versus straight, fight or not, you don't have to pick up any loot if you don't want to (!), and the levels look pretty restricted to me.

Comparison map of a level in Thief II and the new one. Don't look close if you don't want to be spoiled, but you can see at a glance how the level is mapped out.



The one guy doing let's play said it was so boring that he just wanted it to be over. Fortunately for him, the main story runs 5 hours. There's an achievement for playing the game for 15 hours. Yep, that's considered an achievement. Now, many people criticized Dishonored for being short, but I had 18 hours on my first playthrough without grinding or reloading, and I didn't have to sit through a bunch of cutscenes.

eternal_napalm wrote...

Yeah, after watching extended gameplay, this game looks pretty bad. In various different ways. I think it won't be too long until Angry Joe tears this game a new one. Mocking the lame npcs in a most hilarious way to boot.

Angry Joe doesn't usually play stealth games, does he?  He never reviewed Dishonored, though he gave it a spot in his best-of-year games.  Sneaky Bastards will give it an honest review, though. And RPS, who are already hinting their displeasure.

Modifié par Addai67, 22 février 2014 - 10:57 .

[TheChris92]

I get the feeling Yahtzee Croshaw will tear it a new one given that Thief 2 is a favorite of his.

[eternal_napalm]

Yeah, I can't wait to see actual reviews. Yeah Angry Joe, he doesn't usually review stealth games, but with this game I wouldn't be shocked, given the current trickle of games releasing. He'd be the first to point out good things, but if the AI is as bad as it looks, and the quality and laziness as apparent as it is, he'd hammer Eidos Montreal for being lazy as they are a AAA production company, and this is supposed to be next gen.

After the very good Deus Ex: Human Revolution, which I say was pretty polished, I'm surprised more effort wasn't given to proper developement and polish of this reboot. DE: HR was delayed and Tomb Raider was, too, wasn't it? Not sure about that one. But instead of giving players a world to navigate in mostly freedom with complexity and diversity like Dishonored was for the most part, founded on pure gameplay, Thief is seemingly just this linear cutscenes story focused game. The cutscene story driven approach from the onset damned this game right there.

Modifié par eternal_napalm, 23 février 2014 - 05:54 .

[Addai]

This one's been six years in development, but a lot of team changes. I can't say much because I only did a couple missions in DXHR, but I found it boring and linear too which is why I quit.

If Angry Joe got angry over anything, it would probably be that they've got a day-one DLC mission "Bank Heist" you have to pre-order to get. A 5 hour main game and they're cutting off content on day one. No thanks. I'd rather go back and play the "bank heist" in Thief 2 again.

[eternal_napalm]

They cut a mission off a short game and made it a preorder incentive? Lol!

[Kronner]

Addai67 wrote...

Comparison map of a level in Thief II and the new one. Don't look close if you don't want to be spoiled, but you can see at a glance how the level is mapped out.

You are comparing a tutorial level (on the right) with a full level (left one). Not really fair.

[Il Divo]

OdanUrr wrote...

DominusVita wrote...

What if Dark Souls II came out and said "we want you to play a challenging rpg, but we don't want to force you to play a challenging rpg".

They almost did, briefly considering the possibility of variable difficulties. Suffice it to say, the idea didn't pass. As far as Thief, it's a bit too early to tell for now. At least from what I've seen, it's not quite the same calibur as the original three.

And that's why I won't be playing Dark Souls or its sequel. I mean, come on, if the only thing your game has going for it is difficulty then it can't possibly be a good game.

I would say that difficulty is far from the only thing that Dark Souls has going for it. It's simply that the difficulty is the most showed off aspect of the advertising campaign, which does serve to set it apart (even if the game isn't as difficult as the developers pretend).

Most games will mention great combat systems, sexy graphics, and similar things. I don't think there are any developers out there showing off their difficulty level.

[Addai]

Kronner wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Comparison map of a level in Thief II and the new one. Don't look close if you don't want to be spoiled, but you can see at a glance how the level is mapped out.

You are comparing a tutorial level (on the right) with a full level (left one). Not really fair.

The warehouse level in Thief 2 is considered a tutorial level.

[Kronner]

Addai67 wrote...
The warehouse level in Thief 2 is considered a tutorial level.

Perhaps. But it's still an unfair comparison. Thief 4 is gonna have much smaller levels, that was clear right from the get go.

However, it still looks like a good game. 
It reminds me of Hitman Absolution in a sense that the previous Hitman games were also very open-world, slow paced games. Absolution is a more dynamic game with smaller levels. It's a different game, though not necessarily worse.

I actually liked it better than the original so I might as well give Thief 4 a chance.

Modifié par Kronner, 23 février 2014 - 03:17 .

[Splinter Cell 108]

Kronner wrote...

However, it still looks like a good game. 
It reminds me of Hitman Absolution in a sense that the previous Hitman games were also very open-world, slow paced games. Absolution is a more dynamic game with smaller levels. It's a different game, though not necessarily worse.

I disagree, Absolution was very much worse than all its predecessors for many reasons, you don't really have the freedom you did in the past, they don't even let you choose your equipment this time around. I personally found it boring and bad compared to blood money, and the ways to go about killing people were much fewer. Plus we had to deal with linear levels and "sealed" doors to make the game playable for consoles. 

I don't know about Thief 4, never played Thief in my life, but I have played Splinter Cell and I've seen where they have taken it, its barely a stealth game anymore with all of the same nonsens happening to it. MGS is also headed the same way as it would seem. 

If they want to make action games and shooter maybe they should create other franchises or use something that already exists. Its like there isn't enough of that garbage floating around and they want to put stealth games in that lot too. 

[Addai]

Kronner wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
The warehouse level in Thief 2 is considered a tutorial level.

Perhaps. But it's still an unfair comparison. Thief 4 is gonna have much smaller levels, that was clear right from the get go.

I'm sorry, but it's not. The developers swore up and down it was going to be true to the spirit of Thief, but from the ground up they made a game that had the values of Assassins Creed and other action RPG games, not Thief. Dishonored actually followed some of the design principles of the Thief games, whereas Eidos has been making lame excuses as to why they can't.

Modifié par Addai67, 23 février 2014 - 06:05 .

[OdanUrr]

Addai67 wrote...

Kronner wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
The warehouse level in Thief 2 is considered a tutorial level.

Perhaps. But it's still an unfair comparison. Thief 4 is gonna have much smaller levels, that was clear right from the get go.

I'm sorry, but it's not. The developers swore up and down it was going to be true to the spirit of Thief, but from the ground up they made a game that had the values of Assassins Creed and other action RPG games, not Thief. Dishonored actually followed some of the design principles of the Thief games, whereas Eidos has been making lame excuses as to why they can't.

Is that an actual quote? Because if it is, then I would remind you that being true to the "spirit" of something may not mean the same thing to different people. Perhaps Eidos believes the "spirit" of Thief is something else?

[Addai]

"We're going to use the name as a marketing gimmick for our action game" doesn't cut it.

Modifié par Addai67, 23 février 2014 - 06:20 .

[TheChris92]

Kronner wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
The warehouse level in Thief 2 is considered a tutorial level.

Perhaps. But it's still an unfair comparison. Thief 4 is gonna have much smaller levels, that was clear right from the get go.

Which is terrible - Why would less freedom be considered an improvement for a franchise, that preaches freedom of approaching your goals

However, it still looks like a good game. It reminds me of Hitman Absolution.

Absolution? A good game? You gotta be kidding. It was a streamlined mess which cut down on Blood Money's spawlyness. It even chose to actually include badly written plot, a poor man's Leon, with a saturday morning cartoon villain. That is not what Hitman is about or why it's popular.

[GimmeDaGun]

Addai67 wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...
I haven't watched the entire game if that's what you're saying. May I presume you have? The little I did watch made me doubt the voice acting but I thought I would at least have the freedom to approach each objective differently.

The devs have basically said that they made it linear on purpose. You can choose to go left versus straight, fight or not, you don't have to pick up any loot if you don't want to (!), and the levels look pretty restricted to me.

Comparison map of a level in Thief II and the new one. Don't look close if you don't want to be spoiled, but you can see at a glance how the level is mapped out.



The one guy doing let's play said it was so boring that he just wanted it to be over. Fortunately for him, the main story runs 5 hours. There's an achievement for playing the game for 15 hours. Yep, that's considered an achievement. Now, many people criticized Dishonored for being short, but I had 18 hours on my first playthrough without grinding or reloading, and I didn't have to sit through a bunch of cutscenes.

eternal_napalm wrote...

Yeah, after watching extended gameplay, this game looks pretty bad. In various different ways. I think it won't be too long until Angry Joe tears this game a new one. Mocking the lame npcs in a most hilarious way to boot.

Angry Joe doesn't usually play stealth games, does he?  He never reviewed Dishonored, though he gave it a spot in his best-of-year games.  Sneaky Bastards will give it an honest review, though. And RPS, who are already hinting their displeasure.

That map comparison is pretty unfair: you compare one of the more complex levels of TMA and the new game's tutorial level. Plus, just a slight reminder: TDP's last mission was one of the most linear and most boring levels in any game, not only in a Thief game. 

Actually one guy who played the first mission said that this particular level (Lockdown) is not as narrow as it seemed in the presentation vids. There's more to explore there (spoilers: there are underground tunnels for instance). Plus it's the tutorial level (similar to Bafford's mansion or TMA's first mission). Those were pretty small too. So no wonder.

The streams you can watch on youtube don't do justice to the game. People who played it (xbox and ps3 players...well, yeah) rush through the game with easy mode and everything switched on, not caring about looting and exploration at all. I just could not watch them playing. They thought they were playing AC. It was baaad. The devs were pretty straight with this: they said you can play it casually if you please, but if you want the real thief experience, you can have it, just do it on master mode and switch off all the console bs. features. You can customise the game and play it your way (and just a reminder: you could easily rush through in any level of the original Thief games too, if you wanted to). 

Also I would not trust those people who complete the game so fast. In the official Thief forums they say it took 8 hours to complete the main mission for those guys who rushed through the game not caring about thieving and expoloration, nor about side missions. Also it has 40 minutes worth of cutscenes - so it's not that overly cinematic or passive a game. 

I preordered it and will give it a chance, since I am a great fan of the Thief series and Deus Ex:HR. I'm not expecting the greatness of The Metal Age to return, but I'm hoping for a better game than Deadly Shadows (except for one legendary mission) was. I also hope that Eidos Montreal delivers as they did with DE:HR.

As for the setting: SPOILERS!! It's a reboot. You don't play the same Garrett (hence the new voice actor), nor during the same time period. It's the same City, but it's a later age of the City. The keepers in this game are ancient history (yes they do exist in this game too, but they are long gone: the House of Blossoms is the ancient Keeper Library), but as far as I understand it takes place hundreds of years later following the events of the original series. The Hammers and Pagans are also gone unfortunately. 
It is the same City but a different age, a different Garrett and a very different story which revolves around mistery and the supernatural power which the City is founded upon and not on the factions. Also it is a personal story for Garrett. That Erin is his protege and friend who is a central element of the plot, so that's why he cares about her in the ending cutscene (the original Garrett cared very much for Victoria too, so I don't see what's the big deal here). Yeah, I was pretty impatient so I spoiled the story for myself by watching the cutscenes. The story is not that great, but not much worse than the original games' stories were. The ending is pretty bad though... not so much the ending mission, but the aftermath... it's abscent: no resolution or closure at all. It just ends. 

People's reactions are contradicting. Most players who are new to the series (the ones who played the game on xbox and ps3 and streamed their playthroughs) did not like it. Old fans who watched these playthroughs are disappointed (no wonder, those playthroughs are very embarassing), but some who actually took the time and played it as it should be, said that it's not that bad, some of them even enjoyed it. 

I will place my judgement on my own experience and not on others'. 

So I think it's pretty early to smash those gavels down, especially if you only place your judgement on preconceptions, general negativity (or negative hype) and on a few snippets of rumors or some rookie, causal console players' rushed playthroughs. 

[GimmeDaGun]

Addai67 wrote...

Kronner wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
The warehouse level in Thief 2 is considered a tutorial level.

Perhaps. But it's still an unfair comparison. Thief 4 is gonna have much smaller levels, that was clear right from the get go.

I'm sorry, but it's not. The developers swore up and down it was going to be true to the spirit of Thief, but from the ground up they made a game that had the values of Assassins Creed and other action RPG games, not Thief. Dishonored actually followed some of the design principles of the Thief games, whereas Eidos has been making lame excuses as to why they can't.

How do you know that the "levels" in this new Thief don't live up to the complexity of the missions in TDS at least. It was pretty clear that the missions would not be as vast as some of the missions in TMA were (those were huge). It was a different engine and a lot less detailed. Huge empty rooms everywhere. I loved it, but it was a very different experience. 

[GimmeDaGun]

Addai67 wrote...

This one's been six years in development, but a lot of team changes. I can't say much because I only did a couple missions in DXHR, but I found it boring and linear too which is why I quit.

If Angry Joe got angry over anything, it would probably be that they've got a day-one DLC mission "Bank Heist" you have to pre-order to get. A 5 hour main game and they're cutting off content on day one. No thanks. I'd rather go back and play the "bank heist" in Thief 2 again.

Ok, you found DE:HR boring and bad... well, in that case, I stop arguing, since this makes it obvious tha we have very different expectations and tastes when it comes to games. I loved DE:HR (and yeah, I love stealth games... I grew up on the Thief series). To me it's a lot more than gameplay and size what makes a game good. 

Bank Heist was a contest winner, homage mission. Not part of the game in any way. True dlc content if you ask me. Plus think about it. If they can remake such complex and big maps as Bank Heist was in Thief 2, there is a tiny chance that the missions in the game would be a bit more complicated than one single corridor with guards to shoot at. 

[TheChris92]

J. Reezy wrote...

Don't get it twisted. Sans the story elements, which have nothing to do with gameplay anyway, Hitman: Absolution is a good game. Taken by itself of course. When you ignore its roots. The problem comes in when you have to (for great reason) compare it to other Hitman games. This is where it utterly fails. And this is where that philosophy of accessibility becomes a problem. When I think "Hitman" I don't think linear, Batman knock off, corridor shooter. With, as you said, a Saturday morning cartoon villain.

Sorry, J, but I hate this kind of argument -- It's like Fable apologisers saying Fable II[/i] becomes a good game if you judge it not as an action RPG but as a Sims[/i]-esque life simulator with action RPG bits. Of course, that's a slippery slope. Maybe it would also be good game if you judged it as a Frisbee or from the perspective of a nineteen-century time traveler. But if we do it your way -- We get a bad action game that copies the Arkham games, so much that it hurts, only leaving out the actual fun bits like the awesome combat, sprawly environment etc. It's a Hitman, or so it tries to convince itself, and it's really bad at that. Judging it as anything else would be apologizing on behalf of IO Interactive. But they are big boys -- They don't need defending they have Square Enix for that.

Modifié par TheChris92, 23 février 2014 - 07:36 .

[Addai]

GimmeDaGun wrote...

That map comparison is pretty unfair: you compare one of the more complex levels of TMA and the new game's tutorial level. Plus, just a slight reminder: TDP's last mission was one of the most linear and most boring levels in any game, not only in a Thief game.

The warehouses, complex?  It's the second mission and meant to ease you in to the game's mechanics. There are no machines or cameras (maybe one or two inside, I can't remember) and enemies are spaced out. The maps are square. Is this what counts as amazingly complex level design?

Actually one guy who played the first mission said that this particular level (Lockdown) is not as narrow as it seemed in the presentation vids. There's more to explore there (spoilers: there are underground tunnels for instance).

Yeah, I saw that discussion, and others saying that the game only got more linear later on.

The story is not that great, but not much worse than the original games' stories were. The ending is pretty bad though... not so much the ending mission, but the aftermath... it's abscent: no resolution or closure at all. It just ends.

The original games had okay story, but it was the combination of elements that made them. The crazy hokey stuff meshed with the strangeness of a steampunk world, with great mechanics, so the story didn't have to carry them. If you're going to make a corridor action cutscene game, you had better have top notch story and presentation.

On balance, no one should be surprised. The writing was on the wall with this game for a long time.

I will place my judgement on my own experience and not on others'. 

So I think it's pretty early to smash those gavels down, especially if you only place your judgement on preconceptions, general negativity (or negative hype) and on a few snippets of rumors or some rookie, causal console players' rushed playthroughs. 

It's your 60 bucks.

Bank Heist was a contest winner, homage mission. Not part of the game in any way. 

There is no justification for that kind of crap. None. And I will be very surprised if it's anywhere near as complex as Thief 2's bank break mission.

Modifié par Addai67, 23 février 2014 - 07:48 .

[eternal_napalm]

J. Reezy wrote...

eternal_napalm wrote...

if the AI is as bad as it looks, and the quality and laziness as apparent as it is, he'd hammer Eidos Montreal for being lazy as they are a AAA production company, and this is supposed to be next gen.

Whatever that means.

Yep.

[OdanUrr]

I made the mistake of watching the ending. I think I had about the same feeling when I finished ME3.

[spirosz]

So is this a good game or what?