78 réponses à ce sujet

[Sir DeLoria]

Jukaga wrote...

Necanor wrote...
Geth are lifeless machines, nothing more. Also, the Geth that slaughtered millions of innocent civilians in the Morning War are the same ones still roaming the Perseus Veil. The Krogan alive now aren't responsible for what their ancestors did.

And for the love of god, please stop saying "the Geth defended themselves". Butchering millions of infants, children, elderly and civilians in general is not self-defence. Neither is committing complete cultural genocide. The Geth deserve nothing but death, the Krogan don't.

I prefer to think of it as recycling technology for the Quarians to rebuild with. After all what is not alive cannot be killed, only decommissioned and repurposed.

True, bad wording on my part. It would indeed be a shame to let all those good ressources the Geth are made of go to waste. Finally the Geth are useful:D

[KaiserShep]

I don't suppose they were useful when they were aiding in boosting the quarians' immune systems.

[Sir DeLoria]

KaiserShep wrote...

I don't suppose they were useful when they were aiding in boosting the quarians' immune systems.

Fair point, that's the only other scenario where they do something good for once.

[shodiswe]

Necanor wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

I don't suppose they were useful when they were aiding in boosting the quarians' immune systems.

Fair point, that's the only other scenario where they do something good for once.

They also help in the fight against the Reapers, in my playthrough the Geth had more warassets than the Quarians. They sent their fleets and soldiers and promised to help with the rebuilding after the war.
They certainly don't seem like bad people, they just seem to have something against people that tries to "kill" them.

Also, some Geth were created after the morning war and wern't part of that pesky little conflict that the Quarians started. Retreating doesn't count as an atempt to make peace, the Quarians never tried, the only Quarians that tried to make peace were branded as traitors. 
Some Krogans and Asari that lived during the Krogan rebellions are still alive even if there are very few of them. Does that mean their species needs to be eradicated because they still got people from that era where whole planetary population men, women and children got bombed to death by dropping asteroids on populated planets?

Also, I'm not sure if one can say one species deserves more hate and retribution just because they live longer than others.
While Geth do die in accidents and violent occurances and other unfortunate events some might live to be a million years if they maintain themselves. Does that make their species guilty in a special way compared to the Salarians who dies after 30 or 40 years and leaves it to their children to maintain their legacy and the Salarian Union?

Modifié par shodiswe, 29 septembre 2013 - 03:41 .

[AlexMBrennan]

And for the love of god, please stop saying "the Geth defended themselves". Butchering millions of infants, children, elderly and civilians in general is not self-defence

You are right, of course - "in general". In this case, however, the quarians put their civilians on military ships used in combat in violation of the laws of war (you can't exploit the requirement to protect civilians by putting your military installation in population centres, effectively using your civilians as human shields)

Based on what we see of quarian behaviour in ME3, the vision you are trying to paint of geth troopers going door-to-door and murdering women and children is nothing more than fantasy: We know that the quarian admirals are too retarded to call of an attack they know will result in the extermination of their species, and the quarians in general do nothing to get rid of leaders clearly incapable of command.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Since this was the last game of the series it was all about the war assets number. Max out that baby. To hell with logic. Who cares? Talk Mordin into faking it. You get the Salarian fleet along with the Krogan with Wreav in charge. With Wrex? You cure it. You make peace with the Quarian and Geth. If not possible and you rewrote the heretics, you pick the Geth. If you destroyed the heretics you pick the Quarians. It's all numbers. You die in the end anyway. The relays blow up. And the Normandy crashes.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Steelcan wrote...

cap and gown wrote...

Crap, now I feel even worse. Bakara just sent me her usual email about "hope for the future." Which would be fine in any other playthrough, but not one where you sabotage the cure! GUILT TRIP!

If you are going to sabotage the cure, at least make sure Mordin makes it out

Why? The guilt of the first genophage was killing him. Now it's going to be even worse.

Shoot him, even on sabotage runs. Mordin is old anyway. Let him die for what he believes.

I normally do not advocate "put him out of his misery"-stances, but in this case, death truly does set him free.

[shodiswe]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Since this was the last game of the series it was all about the war assets number. Max out that baby. To hell with logic. Who cares? Talk Mordin into faking it. You get the Salarian fleet along with the Krogan with Wreav in charge. With Wrex? You cure it. You make peace with the Quarian and Geth. If not possible and you rewrote the heretics, you pick the Geth. If you destroyed the heretics you pick the Quarians. It's all numbers. You die in the end anyway. The relays blow up. And the Normandy crashes.

I rewrote the Geth so that they could help fight the Reapers... Then the Quarians ran in like bunch of morons spoiling my plans.
I tend to make peace since that gives you two fleets and replaces some of the resources lost when the Quarians attacked one of my allies. The Geth in ME2 except for the Heretics were planning to fight the Reapers, the Quarians always told me they had other concerns for the Quarian people.... Least they wern't lying about that part. The Quarians didn't want to help save the whole galaxy from the Reapers, they were just thinking of themselves and ended up attacking one of my allies.

Each to their own on that one i guess. People with a Quarian Waifu would probably annihilate any of the other species to make the Quarians happy.

Personaly, I think killing Mordin is wrong. Also, if the Krogans do try soemtihng again then they would get smashed by everyone else, the galaxy is a lot bigger and stronger than it was over a milenia ago when the Krogans attacked the Asari and Salarians. Who then later brought in the Turians to help fight the Krogans.
I don't think the Krogans would stand a chance if they tried something really stupid. If you got Wreav then sabotaging the cure does make a little sense, you still get their help and they pretty much tell you they will try to conquer the galaxy once the Reapers are gone and insinuating that you are a fool for curing them.
Well Wreav, who's the fool now? Sitting there by your self on a rock looking out at an empty mostly dead planet?

Modifié par shodiswe, 29 septembre 2013 - 09:01 .

[Sir DeLoria]

shodiswe wrote...
*snip*

Also, I'm not sure if one can say one species deserves more hate and retribution just because they live longer than others.
While Geth do die in accidents and violent occurances and other unfortunate events some might live to be a million years if they maintain themselves. Does that make their species guilty in a special way compared to the Salarians who dies after 30 or 40 years and leaves it to their children to maintain their legacy and the Salarian Union?

That's wrong actually, the Rebellions happened in 700 CE(1480 years before ME) not even Asari or Krogan live that long. Some might have had parents in the war(Aethya; Wrex) but no one is still alive from that time. 

You're kind of missing the point here. I don't hate the Geth for living longer than others. It's just that a majority of programs has fought in the Morning War. Geth are just machines, lifeless objects, I'd rather destroy the whole lot of them than have them go completely unpunished.

The Quarians did nothing wrong, if they hadn't taken Rannoch to secure their people, they'd have been annihilated by the Reapers. Don't you think humans would've done the same in that role?

If you're going purely by war assets, Quarian war assetes are potentially higher than Geth assetes. 

[cap and gown]

Finn the Jakey wrote...

And yes, Garrus tells you later on that he had a hunch .

I didn't hear that. I just talked to Garrus after doing Thessia. The subject of the cure came up and I had the usual option of telling him the truth (paragon) or whatever the renegade response is ("careful diplomacy"). I have never lied to Garrus so I don't know what kind of dialogue "careful diplomacy" leads to. The paragon response however does not indicate that Garrus had a hunch. Instead, he asks "Did Mordin just go along?" to which Shepard makes no reply, after which Garrus says "Damn war."

[caradoc2000]

I've never understood the rationale behind sabotaging the cure. Even if you disregard the war assets you will miss out on, you are exterminating an entire race.

The question is: if you do this, are you any better than the Reapers?

[KaiserShep]

Short answer: yes.

The Dalatrass' concerns are actually legitimate, even if she does come off as annoying. The only reason I don't sabotage the cure is because Wrex and Eve survive in my playthough, and while I would still see a resurgent krogan as a considerable risk, I'm accepting that risk with the idea that a new regime could help quell typical krogan aggression in the future. Wreav, however, leaves little doubt that the krogan will be just as bloodthirsty as they were during the rebellions, and they still do want to strike back at the turians and salarians once the conflict is over, which would effectively lead to problems with every other spacefaring race in the galaxy.

When the Primarch made the proposal to get the krogan on board, this was before anyone knew that a plan for the cure was even in place, but suddenly it's a bargaining chip thrown on the table to get an alliance rolling. Considering the reasons why the genophage was even implemented and subsequently modified, that's a pretty big thing to ask for. The only reason sabotage is seen as such an absolutely bad thing is because its only proponents at that point are unlikeable.

[KR96]

caradoc2000 wrote...

I've never understood the rationale behind sabotaging the cure. Even if you disregard the war assets you will miss out on, you are exterminating an entire race.

The question is: if you do this, are you any better than the Reapers?

That depends on whether the clan is lead by Wreav or Wrex and Eve. Wrex and Eve are obviously interested in the advancement of the Krogan race, without the bloodshed of other races. Plus, you're not killing them, you're reducing their birth rate. Remember, Krogan don't reproduce like humans do, they really spawn new krogan like cockroaches. So the genophage was the right thing to do. 

The thing that disappoints me the most however, is that throughout ME2 I convinced Mordin of the fact that the genophage was the right thing to do and still he has this huge regret over modifying the genophage. Shame, really. 

[o Ventus]

Necanor wrote...

Geth are lifeless machines, nothing more.

Tali says otherwise.

Also, the Geth that slaughtered millions of innocent civilians in the Morning War are the same ones still roaming the Perseus Veil. The Krogan alive now aren't responsible for what their ancestors did.

Okeer is a veteran of the rebellions, and he lived all the way up to 2185, where he was murdered. He didn't even die of natural causes. So yes, there are krogan from the rebellions who are still alive.

And for the love of god, please stop saying "the Geth defended themselves". Butchering millions of infants, children, elderly and civilians in general is not self-defence. Neither is committing complete cultural genocide. The Geth deserve nothing but death, the Krogan don't.

The hypocrisy is strong in this one. The krogan did the exact same thing here as the geth did, only a far greater scale. The geth, who had literally zero experience with organics and were being hunted and disabled for no good reason, almost destroyed a single species on one planet. The krogan, who were by all means the aggressors during the rebellions, wiped out entire systems and would slam satellites into populated colonies. But no, just ignore one side for the other, because "machines".

[Jukaga]

Don't forget Wrex taking a full bottle of derp pills, forgetting the only reason he was able to unite the Krogan in the first place. With a cure, there is no reason for the other clans to follow Wrex & Bakara.

[o Ventus]

Jukaga wrote...

Don't forget Wrex taking a full bottle of derp pills, forgetting the only reason he was able to unite the Krogan in the first place. With a cure, there is no reason for the other clans to follow Wrex & Bakara.

Clan Urdnot still has all the females and all the power, even after the cure is put in. I doubt the other krogan would just up and leave with no clansmen to live with or women to mate with.

[KR96]

o Ventus wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Geth are lifeless machines, nothing more.

Tali says otherwise.

Also, the Geth that slaughtered millions of innocent civilians in the Morning War are the same ones still roaming the Perseus Veil. The Krogan alive now aren't responsible for what their ancestors did.

Okeer is a veteran of the rebellions, and he lived all the way up to 2185, where he was murdered. He didn't even die of natural causes. So yes, there are krogan from the rebellions who are still alive.

And for the love of god, please stop saying "the Geth defended themselves". Butchering millions of infants, children, elderly and civilians in general is not self-defence. Neither is committing complete cultural genocide. The Geth deserve nothing but death, the Krogan don't.

The hypocrisy is strong in this one. The krogan did the exact same thing here as the geth did, only a far greater scale. The geth, who had literally zero experience with organics and were being hunted and disabled for no good reason, almost destroyed a single species on one planet. The krogan, who were by all means the aggressors during the rebellions, wiped out entire systems and would slam satellites into populated colonies. But no, just ignore one side for the other, because "machines".

Not to mention the fact that the Geth broke off their pursuit when the Quarians fled into space. The Quarians could easilty have been annihilated. 

[IceTrey1987]

cap and gown wrote...

Jukaga wrote...

That is one of my favorite scenes in the game, it has a DS9 'By the Pale Moonlight' episode feel to it.

Don't recall the episode. (not sure I saw all, or even most, of DS9.)

I really had to think about how I wanted to do this. I knew right from the start that I wanted Wreav in this playthrough, so I had Ash kill Wrex on Virmire. My motivation was a deep suspicion of the Krogan. This led to a problem on Tuchanka, though: what to do with the cure data? If I destroyed it based on my deep suspicion, then I would have the easy way out later on: just persuade Mordin/Wiks to go along. But I didn't want the easy way out, I wanted drama! So how to justify saving the data? Well, in the end Shep decided that data is data, better to have it and not use it than to trash it altogether. So this left the question of what to do with Mordin. I have only seen Wiks one time and I would like to have him again, but that would mean leaving Mordin face down in the dirt on the Collecter Base. A rather inglorious end to a great character. In the end I decided Mordin's death should be a moment of deep tragedy and great heroics. So he survived the Collector Base only to be murdered by Sheppard on Tuchanka.

What really struck me was the total lack of music as we drove away from the Shroud. Unlike all the alternative playthroughs, the "kill Mordin" playthrough has no music at all, just silence as the Shroud collapses.

If Wreav is the Krogan leader, you should not cure the genophage.  Just for the galaxy's sake.  You shouldn't be a humanitarian (kroganitarian?) at the cost of being stupid.

[IceTrey1987]

killerrabbit1996 wrote...

caradoc2000 wrote...

I've never understood the rationale behind sabotaging the cure. Even if you disregard the war assets you will miss out on, you are exterminating an entire race.

The question is: if you do this, are you any better than the Reapers?

That depends on whether the clan is lead by Wreav or Wrex and Eve. Wrex and Eve are obviously interested in the advancement of the Krogan race, without the bloodshed of other races. Plus, you're not killing them, you're reducing their birth rate. Remember, Krogan don't reproduce like humans do, they really spawn new krogan like cockroaches. So the genophage was the right thing to do. 

The thing that disappoints me the most however, is that throughout ME2 I convinced Mordin of the fact that the genophage was the right thing to do and still he has this huge regret over modifying the genophage. Shame, really. 

Except that the Krogan are a sentient species and to continue their race they then had to endure millions of stillborns, taking an extreme emotional and psychological effect on them.  I'd prefer curing the genophage and encouraging a responsible breeding program under the leadership of Wrex.  It really all comes down to who's leading the Krogan and who you can trust.  Also I'm pretty sure they made it clear that the number of Krogan was decreasing, not being sustained.

[Reorte]

IceTrey1987 wrote...

Except that the Krogan are a sentient species and to continue their race they then had to endure millions of stillborns, taking an extreme emotional and psychological effect on them.  I'd prefer curing the genophage and encouraging a responsible breeding program under the leadership of Wrex.  It really all comes down to who's leading the Krogan and who you can trust.  Also I'm pretty sure they made it clear that the number of Krogan was decreasing, not being sustained.

Yet the whole point of the genophage modification project that Mordin worked on was because the krogan birth rate was increasing despite the genophage.

[caradoc2000]

Sorry, I've been doing IRL problems.  
Nevertheless to answer my own rhetorical question:

The question is: if you do this, are you any better than the Reapers?

The real answer is - no, if any one of you  is even thinking of answering this as 'yes'

then egads 

Modifié par caradoc2000, 30 septembre 2013 - 08:33 .

[Reorte]

caradoc2000 wrote...

Sorry, I've been doing IRL problems.  
Nevertheless to answer my own rhetorical question:

The question is: if you do this, are you any better than the Reapers?

The real answer is - no, if any one of you  is even thinking of answering this as 'yes'

then egads 

The Reapers are killing everyone for no good reason. Sabotaging the cure on the other hand simply means stopping the krogan from being able to expand (and keeping them a bit miserable) for a very good reason, considering what they've done in what must be regarded as relatively recent history (just about living memory still for some krogan and asari IIRC).

[Sir DeLoria]

@Vent

Ah, I see you're trying to convince me, that the Krogan deserve the same righteous punishment as the Geth.

When is it mentioned, that Okeer was a veteran of the war? I don't remember that. Even if that is the case, it is highly unlikely many Krogan beside him survived that long. In that case, yes he would deserve to be trialed for committing war crimes. There is a difference however in punishing war criminals and mass murderers and punishing their ancestors. The nature of the Geth does not make that argument possible on their behalf.

Besides, the Krogan were actually punished for their crimes, they suffered for millenia. The Geth of course were never punished for anything. I guess butchering millions in the name of "survival" is entirely justified.

The evil humans wanted to deactivate skynet, it is entirely fair, that skynet killed the vast majority of humanity. After all, it was only "self-defence".

Tali only really disagrees if you choose to activate Legion. Even if she disagrees, I don't really care, I have the same view of the Geth as Daro and Han.

Modifié par Necanor, 30 septembre 2013 - 08:45 .

[caradoc2000]

Reorte wrote...

The Reapers are killing everyone for no good reason. Sabotaging the cure on the other hand simply means stopping the krogan from being able to expand (and keeping them a bit miserable) for a very good reason, considering what they've done in what must be regarded as relatively recent history (just about living memory still for some krogan and asari IIRC).

 Thank you - not 

The Reapers are killing everyone for the same reason you would be killing the Krogan, just because they can.

[Sir DeLoria]

killerrabbit1996 wrote...

Not to mention the fact that the Geth broke off their pursuit when the Quarians fled into space. The Quarians could easilty have been annihilated. 

Yes, the Geth let an entire 1% of the Quarians live, are they not merciful?

I'm sure you'll judge a psychotic serial killer who kills 99 people and lets one go the same way;)