78 réponses à ce sujet

[eyezonlyii]

I know this may be off topic, but did everyone who killed the Krogans also kill the Rachni queen? if not, then how can that be justified?

[Xplode441]

Necanor wrote...
Ah, I see you're trying to convince me, that the Krogan deserve the same righteous punishment as the Geth.
The evil humans wanted to deactivate skynet, it is entirely fair, that skynet killed the vast majority of humanity. After all, it was only "self-defence".

Tali only really disagrees if you choose to activate Legion. Even if she disagrees, I don't really care, I have the same view of the Geth as Daro and Han.

You take a bottle of derp pills every morning after your Quarian milk?  I mean, are you really trying to compare the Geth to Skynet?
Skynet sought to destroy organic life that could compete with artificial intelligence because it became self-aware and saw humans as inferior.
Geth became self-aware and the Quarians reacted prematurely (I understand their concerns) to attempt to deactivate them before they became a problem.  The Geth being an immature species reacted as any sapient species would that was going to be exterminated, they fought back. Self-preservation and all that.
You're looking into the conflict with an obvious bias in favor of the Quarians and ignoring their faults in the war.

It's known that the civilians are 'drafted' into conflicts as seen in ME3.  It's known that the Quarians freaked the hell out at Geth simply becoming intelligent and tried to exterminate a newly sapient species.  (You can disagree that synthetic life could ever be seen as a new species, but many scientists would disagree with you)

Basically what I'm asking you is, what justification can you give for the Quarians attempting to basically genocide a species simply for attaining higher intelligence.  It's shown in the consensus that the Geth had no hostile intentions before they started being deactivated.  It's also shown in the Citadel archives that AI are shot down even when showing no ill intent.

If you want to take the Javik or Starchild approach and say that synthetics will all eventually see organics as inferior and wage war (which isn't the case yet with the Geth) then you're free too, it is a RPG after all.  But coming on here and saying that the Geth are ebil aggressors when it's shown to be untrue does not help your case at all.

Modifié par Xplode441, 30 septembre 2013 - 09:15 .

[YourFleshIsMine]

To me I know I will choose destruction in the end. Why? Because I want the races in the univers t make their own choices. Sabotaging the cure is like the control option. So for me it wouldn't fit with my own logic if I maintained the genophage.

[Sir DeLoria]

Xplode441 wrote...
Basically what I'm asking you is, what justification can you give for the Quarians attempting to basically genocide a species simply for attaining higher intelligence.  It's shown in the consensus that the Geth had no hostile intentions before they started being deactivated.  It's also shown in the Citadel archives that AI are shot down even when showing no ill intent.

Your argument is based on the belief, that AIs are actually considered living beings. I disagree, so a discussion is pointless, because this talk never achieves anything. 

I don't think, that the Geth were the aggressors in the conflict. The Geth acted in self-defense at first, but what they ended up doing in the end can't be justified by that. Killing civilians isn't self-defense. 

Sure, maybe a small bunch of civilians did get emergency drafted, but I hardly think babies and children would make good soldiers. 

I also don't see any explanation, as to why the Geth killed non-Quarian civilians as well. 

Modifié par Necanor, 30 septembre 2013 - 09:24 .

[o Ventus]

Necanor wrote...

killerrabbit1996 wrote...

Not to mention the fact that the Geth broke off their pursuit when the Quarians fled into space. The Quarians could easilty have been annihilated. 

Yes, the Geth let an entire 1% of the Quarians live, are they not merciful?

I'm sure you'll judge a psychotic serial killer who kills 99 people and lets one go the same way;)

You really do like making poor comparisons, don't you?

Also, I wasn't trying to convince you of anything in my last post. All I was doing was pointing out how stupid and arbitrary your argument is.

[Reorte]

caradoc2000 wrote...

Reorte wrote...

The Reapers are killing everyone for no good reason. Sabotaging the cure on the other hand simply means stopping the krogan from being able to expand (and keeping them a bit miserable) for a very good reason, considering what they've done in what must be regarded as relatively recent history (just about living memory still for some krogan and asari IIRC).

 Thank you - not 

The Reapers are killing everyone for the same reason you would be killing the Krogan, just because they can.

That is not what I said at all. For starters, you're not killing the krogan. Secondly, there's very good reason to believe that the krogan might return to their old ways and cause a hell of a lot more destruction. Not that I've actually sabotaged the cure but the game really doesn't provide you with much rational cause to consider the genophage as anything other than the right move, or that curing it won't just bring back the same problems (there's some chance it won't with Wrex and Eve but if Wreav is in charge...)

[RZIBARA]

Did this honestly turn into a Geth Quarian Debate?

The f*ck....... smh

[Reorte]

Necanor wrote...

Your argument is based on the belief, that AIs are actually considered living beings. I disagree, so a discussion is pointless, because this talk never achieves anything.

Careful - people have said pretty much the same thing about other groups of people. A discussion is not pointless because you should really think hard and listen and discuss to make sure that you're not falling into the same sort of prejudice.

[Reorte]

eyezonlyii wrote...

I know this may be off topic, but did everyone who killed the Krogans also kill the Rachni queen? if not, then how can that be justified?

We know exactly what the krogan did and why, and it was all down to them. The rachni have a greater degree of uncertainty (i.e. do you believe the queen or not?)

[Xplode441]

Necanor wrote...
Your argument is based on the belief, that AIs are actually considered living beings. I disagree, so a discussion is pointless, because this talk never achieves anything. 

http://science.howstuffworks.com/weird-life.htm
As I said, scientists would disagree with you.  Can't say I didn't warn you.

I don't think, that the Geth were the aggressors in the conflict. The
Geth acted in self-defense at first, but what they ended up doing in the
end can't be justified by that. Killing civilians isn't self-defense.

As seen in the consensus, the Quarians had no problem killing Quarian civilians who were protecting the Geth, so why is the double standard applied here?

Sure, maybe a small bunch of civilians did get emergency drafted, but I
hardly think babies and children would make good soldiers.

You have civilian casualties in every war.  Only an ignorant fool would think there is such a thing as civilized war.  As well, the Geth were an immature species who were operating on self-preservation.  Your error is in assuming that the Geth understood any laws of warfare.  And while it is cruel to think about, wiping out children's parents while trying to protect yourself from them does not leave a good impression on the children.  What it does is further increase the chance of coming into hostilites with the child after they age.

I also don't see any explanation, as to why the Geth killed non-Quarian civilians as well.

While I think it was impolite for you to dodge my question towards you for justification of the quarians genociding the geth, I will give you my perspective and I will try to say something that I didn't say before.
I don't see any reason that the Geth would differentiate between hostile and non-hostile Quarians after the entire Quarian race was put under martial law and the dissenters were silenced.  Like it or not, terroristic tactics work in dropping morale of the enemy and putting pressure on your enemy to end the war.  It's a sound tactic when facing an enemy who outnumbers you and has more military might than you.  Of course, this is assuming that the Geth had the processing power to reason such a thing at the time.  But then again, I see my right to assume things when that is the basis of a lot of your arguments.

[caradoc2000]

Reorte wrote...
...you're not killing the krogan.

Yeah, right, I'm not killing the Krogan, I'm just not rescuing them...

Secondly, there's very good reason to believe that the krogan might return to their old ways and cause a hell of a lot more destruction.

Even so, are you any better than the Reapers, especially considering you will be sooo screwww'd if you don't ?

[KR96]

caradoc2000 wrote...

Reorte wrote...
...you're not killing the krogan.

Yeah, right, I'm not killing the Krogan, I'm just not rescuing them...

Secondly, there's very good reason to believe that the krogan might return to their old ways and cause a hell of a lot more destruction.

Even so, are you any better than the Reapers, especially considering you will be sooo screwww'd if you don't ?

The reapers are looking to wipe out all organic life from the face of the galaxy. In comparison to that, retaining a 1/1000 birth control for the entire Krogan population seems small time, especially considering their extremely high birth rates should they not be controlled. This was why the Salarians produced the genophage in the first place, because it seemed as though the Krogan had endless reinforcements because of their birth rate and lack of natural enemies, other than the Turian bullets flying around of course. 

[Sir DeLoria]

Do you know the Chinese room? Yeah, not all scientists believe, that AIs are living, thinking beings. Like I said, it's a never ending debate and debating it here again is utterly pointess.

Yes, some Quarians may have killed a few of their own civilains in the war, I never questioned that. Of course these individuals were committing terrible crimes as well, but the Quarian never murdered their own people on such a grand scale as the Geth.

Of course you have civilian casualties in every war, but looking at the few facts we have about the war, it looks like Geth were deliberately targetting civilians. If the Geth managed to nearly eradicate an entire planet's population, they had to have specifically targeted civilians.

The Geth are machines, they aren't living beings in my opinion. Seeing as though AIs can be extremely dangerous and the fact, that the Quarians were forced by council law to disable any and all AIs, the Quarians had every right to permanently shut down the Geth.

How can I not assume things? We have almost no facts about the war, we don't even know how many Quarians were killed in the war(presumably 1-2 billion).

You also haven't yet explained why the Geth killed non-Quarian civilians in the Morning War.

[LiL Reapur]

Necanor wrote...

Do you know the Chinese room? Yeah, not all scientists believe, that AIs are living, thinking beings. Like I said, it's a never ending debate and debating it here again is utterly pointess.

Yes, some Quarians may have killed a few of their own civilains in the war, I never questioned that. Of course these individuals were committing terrible crimes as well, but the Quarian never murdered their own people on such a grand scale as the Geth.

Of course you have civilian casualties in every war, but looking at the few facts we have about the war, it looks like Geth were deliberately targetting civilians. If the Geth managed to nearly eradicate an entire planet's population, they had to have specifically targeted civilians.

The Geth are machines, they aren't living beings in my opinion. Seeing as though AIs can be extremely dangerous and the fact, that the Quarians were forced by council law to disable any and all AIs, the Quarians had every right to permanently shut down the Geth.

How can I not assume things? We have almost no facts about the war, we don't even know how many Quarians were killed in the war(presumably 1-2 billion).

You also haven't yet explained why the Geth killed non-Quarian civilians in the Morning War.

This arguement is at a 50/50 split, both of you are correct

[caradoc2000]

killerrabbit1996 wrote...

The reapers are looking to wipe out all organic life from the face of the galaxy. In comparison to that, retaining a 1/1000 birth control for the entire Krogan population seems small time, especially considering their extremely high birth rates should they not be controlled. This was why the Salarians produced the genophage in the first place, because it seemed as though the Krogan had endless reinforcements because of their birth rate and lack of natural enemies, other than the Turian bullets flying around of course. 

Sincere apologies: 

I would answer to that, but site rules and common courtesy prevent me from doing so.

For this very reason, this my last post is this thread - peace and love <3

Modifié par caradoc2000, 30 septembre 2013 - 10:22 .

[Reorte]

caradoc2000 wrote...

Reorte wrote...
...you're not killing the krogan.

Yeah, right, I'm not killing the Krogan, I'm just not rescuing them...

From what? You're not enabling them to go on a galaxy-conquering rampage; quite frankly there's little done in the game to make a good argument in the krogan's favour when it comes to curing the genophage. They're suffering mentally for it, there's no question there, but there's precious little offered to suggest there's a better alternative. As has been repeatedly pointed out the krogan are not being killed by the genophage; as Mordin pointed out in ME2 a large part of the work in it went in to making sure that it wouldn't do that.

Secondly, there's very good reason to believe that the krogan might return to their old ways and cause a hell of a lot more destruction.

Even so, are you any better than the Reapers, especially considering you will be sooo screwww'd if you don't ?

Considering what the Reapers are doing, then of course. Curing the genophage may well be a lesser evil, short-term pragmatism thing of course.

[Sir DeLoria]

Sorry Reorte, but it's mentioned a few times, that sabotaging the genophage does indeed doom the Krogan race. Leaving the Rachni alive and not curing the genophage just speeds up the process of their extinction.

[Reorte]

Necanor wrote...

Sorry Reorte, but it's mentioned a few times, that sabotaging the genophage does indeed doom the Krogan race. Leaving the Rachni alive and not curing the genophage just speeds up the process of their extinction.

The krogan claim they're doomed but there's no logic to support that position. Remember what the whole purpose of the genophage is. What you do with the rachni is irrelevent to the genophage.

Modifié par Reorte, 30 septembre 2013 - 10:38 .

[Sir DeLoria]

Reorte wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Sorry Reorte, but it's mentioned a few times, that sabotaging the genophage does indeed doom the Krogan race. Leaving the Rachni alive and not curing the genophage just speeds up the process of their extinction.

The krogan claim they're doomed but there's no logic to support that position. Remember what the whole purpose of the genophage is. What you do with the rachni is irrelevent to the genophage.

With the heavy losses from the war and no sufficient growth in population I don't see a future for the Krogan race. Not curing the genophage and leaving the Rachni alive leads to the Rachni conquering Tuchanka. So much is implied in the ending slide.

[Xplode441]

Necanor wrote...
Do you know the Chinese room? Yeah, not all scientists believe, that AIs are living, thinking beings. Like I said, it's a never ending debate and debating it here again is utterly pointess.

It's blatantly obvious and an accepted fact that AI's are thinking beings.  Also, life as we define it is based on our knowledge of our world.  It's not a standard definition that would necessarily fit anything new or extra-terrestrial, this is also accepted.  Ask a biologist how they would define life found on another world and you'll get more than one answer.
If you would excuse a quote from Descartes: "cogito ergo sum".  The Geth think, therefore they exist.  That is to say, they can acknowledge their own existence, question their existence, and other Geth can acknowledge a single Geth's existence.  If you were to speak this in a philosophical sense, does that not make them alive?  What does it mean to be alive?  IMHO that's what the Geth represented in the ME universe, they were the theme of what does it mean to be alive.

Yes, some Quarians may have killed a few of their own civilains in the
war, I never questioned that. Of course these individuals were
committing terrible crimes as well, but the Quarian never murdered their
own people on such a grand scale as the Geth.

And what of the Geth who did not wish to fight the Quarians, did they deserve death?  In the consensus, a Geth unit is shown taking up arms to save other Geth who were defenseless, did they deserve death?

Of course you have civilian casualties in every war, but looking at the
few facts we have about the war, it looks like Geth were deliberately
targetting civilians. If the Geth managed to nearly eradicate an entire
planet's population, they had to have specifically targeted civilians.

I actually already responded to this in my last post, it's a sound tactic.  Besides, it's not like the Quarians aren't guilty of eliminating non-hostile Geth.  You can't pretend like either side has clean hands.

The Geth are machines, they aren't living beings in my opinion. Seeing
as though AIs can be extremely dangerous and the fact, that the Quarians
were forced by council law to disable any and all AIs, the Quarians had
every right to permanently shut down the Geth.

The Geth were not true AI, they still aren't technically until they attain the Reaper upgrades.  They're just linked intelligences, similar to the way the world wide web works.  If the Council truly had any stake in the affairs of the Quarian and the Geth, then that would have been something to mention, otherwise it's an assumption.

How can I not assume things? We have almost no facts about the war, we
don't even know how many Quarians were killed in the war(presumably 1-2
billion).

Then why hold your opinions to be self-evident?  I'd be fine if you toned it down and didn't go on tirades on how the Geth are ebil machines that should be destroyed for things you're assuming about.

You also haven't yet explained why the Geth killed non-Quarian civilians in the Morning War.

I did, I told you that I would give you my perspective and that is what you received.  I cannot offer more without stretching assumptions too much as there is not enough evidence to provide a solid reasoning.  It is entirely your choice to read them.

[Jukaga]

I don't have much to add here that hasn't already been said. Personally, I've developed a rule I follow now after at least a dozen runs through ME3. If I cure the 'phage, or peace the Quarians/Geth I have to choose control. I trust Wrex's intentions (if not his logic) but Wrex is just one Krogan, they could easily split into civil war/anarchy and with that breeding rate the galaxy would be overrun if they so chose. The threat from a peaced Geth is less clear, but I'm wary of them. I don't feel comfortable leaving the galaxy without a force of guardians to keep things in line.

[Sir DeLoria]

Again, half of this argument is based on the question wether Geth are considered equal to organics or not. No point in discussing it over and over and over.

I'll simply say this: Targeting civilians isn't a sound tactic, it's a pointless crime. The Geth didn't gain any tactical advantage by attacking defenseless civilians. Deliberately killing civilians is of questionable tactical value. Many historians argue, that the bombing raids on German cities in WW2 barely gained the allies any tactical advantage. The only time it affected the German war machinery, was when important targets in the infra-structure were hit.

The only advantage cold hearted mass murder offers is shocking and demoralizing the enemy.

If one side kills civilians, the other side doesn't have the right to do the same.

Regardless it is highly unlikely the Geth thought this far ahead or considered any of these tactics. From the description in ME1, it's likely to assume, that many people perished due to heavy use of WMDs.

[Xplode441]

Necanor wrote...
Again, half of this argument is based on the question wether Geth are considered equal to organics or not. No point in discussing it over and over and over.

And what argument have you displayed to counter anything I've said?  I've tried being logical with you and you just keep handwaving it and saying, "That's not what I think."
It's a common theme in science fiction games, movies, and tv shows.  'What is life?'  It's common in science fiction for self-awareness to be the trait that bestows personhood onto a nonorganic character(s).  This is most visible in ME3 in discussions with EDI.  You can't just handwave in-game things by saying you don't believe in them.

I'll simply say this: Targeting civilians isn't a sound tactic, it's a pointless crime. The Geth didn't gain any tactical advantage by attacking defenseless civilians. Deliberately killing civilians is of questionable tactical value. Many historians argue, that the bombing raids on German cities in WW2 barely gained the allies any tactical advantage. The only time it affected the German war machinery, was when important targets in the infra-structure were hit.

I'll point you to Vietnam where the Vietcong engaged in indiscriminate killing of US troops, diplomats and anyone allied with the US civilian or not.  This was incredibly demoralizing to the people back home in the US because they were seeing and hearing stories of people being tortured and strung up.  Same thing happened in Iraq/Afghanistan and Somalia.

The only advantage cold hearted mass murder offers is shocking and demoralizing the enemy.

That's why it's called terrorism, because it instills terror into the populace.

If one side kills civilians, the other side doesn't have the right to do the same.

Of course, but it does fuel the idea of justification for it.

Regardless it is highly unlikely the Geth thought this far ahead or considered any of these tactics. From the description in ME1, it's likely to assume, that many people perished due to heavy use of WMDs.

Assumptions lead nowhere but circles of assumptions.  Unless we get harder evidence for anything about the war, you can't claim one side had moral superiority.

[Reorte]

Necanor wrote...

I'll simply say this: Targeting civilians isn't a sound tactic, it's a pointless crime. The Geth didn't gain any tactical advantage by attacking defenseless civilians. Deliberately killing civilians is of questionable tactical value.

What about long-term strategic value? As long as the quarians were still around the geth would be threatened by them. Any decent person would decide that that's going too far (and the geth eventually decided the same) but it isn't irrational.