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[leaguer of one]

billy the squid wrote...

Red Lyrium is a mind numbingly dumb concept and the writing team needs to move away from ideas that they came up with while they were on a bad acid trip. It's a cack handed way of making a villain to fight, make him buckets of crazy and then crowbar in a "thou must" position. It was the same with Cerberus, they went from a shady covert organisation in ME1 to buckets of crazy galactic spanning conquest because of "indoctrination"

Bravo BioWare, bravo.

1.It's not a dumb idea. It's the same consept as mages turning to blood magic and demons for more power.Yes, blood magic is not inherity evil but the draw of power can lead to it. 

2. Cerberus becoming indoctrinated is something anyone can see coming from a mile from ME1. They were always a high risk, high rewards organization and it bit them in the ass. Only the 2nd normandy rebuild project was not high risk.

[Br3admax]

1. That's exactly why it's a dumb idea.

2. No it's not.It was pointless move to make a villian. Nothing ever suggested that TIM would do any such thing, total 180 inc character. Two, the Normandy rebuild operation was the most high risk thing Cerberus did. And it turned on them.

Modifié par Br3ad, 28 septembre 2013 - 03:38 .

[Volus Warlord]

Br3ad wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Red Lyrium is a mind numbingly dumb concept and the writing team needs to move away from ideas that they came up with while they were on a bad acid trip. It's a cack handed way of making a villain to fight, make him buckets of crazy and then crowbar in a "thou must" position. It was the same with Cerberus, they went from a shady covert organisation in ME1 to buckets of crazy galactic spanning conquest because of "indoctrination"

Bravo BioWare, bravo.

Cerberus was always evil,they just hid it during ME2.

[leaguer of one]

Br3ad wrote...

1. That's exactly why it's a dumb idea.

2. No it's not.It was pointless move to make a villian. Nothing ever suggested that TIM would do any such thing, total 180 inc character. Two, the Normandy rebuild operation was the most high risk thing Cerberus did. And it turned on them.

1. No it not. There more to it then than just power of power sake. This is power to impose order.These are people who are willing go th the extreme to get an advantage in a war they are trying to impose order in. it added a question of how far one would go for victory. It's no different from Logian selling elves for slave to fund his war or him trying to assasinate the arl of red cliff for an advatage.

2.Nothing?....I'm sorry but years of studying the workings of reaper tech says nothing suggest TIM would want to control the reapers and use them to as way to advance humanity? Or get indoctrinated trying to do it?

So the nanotech they took from reapers and studied, the husk experiments in ME1, the studing of  a reaper corpes, the vast collecting of reaper tech, and the start of experiments on live subject to see the evolution of indoctionations from before ME3 says TIM is not tring to study and take reaper tech as his own?
Let not for get the years of trying to find a way to gain a stable form of mind control to control the super weapon project cerberus came up with as well.

Please, a blind man can see that TIM is trying to take the reapers and there tech as his own. Heck, He was even the only one in the story to see they were just a bunch of out of control tools.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 28 septembre 2013 - 03:51 .

[Br3admax]

leaguer of one wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

1. That's exactly why it's a dumb idea.

2. No it's not.It was pointless move to make a villian. Nothing ever suggested that TIM would do any such thing, total 180 inc character. Two, the Normandy rebuild operation was the most high risk thing Cerberus did. And it turned on them.

1. No it not. There more to it then than just power of power sake. This is power to impose order.These are people who are willing go th the extreme to get an advantage in a war they are trying to impose order in. it added a question of how far one would go for victory. It's no different from Logian selling elves for slave to fund his war or him trying to assasinate the arl of red cliff for an advatage.

2.Nothing?....I'm sorry but years of working of reaper tech says nothing suggest TIM would want to control the reapers and use them to as way to advance humanity? Or get indoctrinated trying to do it?

So the nanotech they took from reapers and stidied, the husk experiments in ME1, the studing of  a reaper corpes, the vast collecting of reaper tech, and the start of experiments on live subject to see the evolution of indoctionations says TIM is not tring to study and take reaper tech as his own?
Let not for get the years of trying to find a way to gain a stable form of mind control to control the super weapon project cerberus came up with as well.

Please, a blind man can see that TIM is trying to take the reapers and there tech as his own. Heck, He was even the only one in the story to see they were just a bunch of out of control tools.

1. The concept of Red Lyrium itself is stupid. Again, point missed.

2. None of that suggest that TIM would use it on himself for instance. And study something does not mean that you will use it on anyone. It's a study to understand it, in a more sensical world, to also combat it. You're using a fallacy when you say that because someone studies something, they must also want to abuse it and use it. 

[Volus Warlord]

leaguer of one wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

1. That's exactly why it's a dumb idea.

2. No it's not.It was pointless move to make a villian. Nothing ever suggested that TIM would do any such thing, total 180 inc character. Two, the Normandy rebuild operation was the most high risk thing Cerberus did. And it turned on them.

1. No it not. There more to it then than just power of power sake. This is power to impose order.These are people who are willing go th the extreme to get an advantage in a war they are trying to impose order in. it added a question of how far one would go for victory. It's no different from Logian selling elves for slave to fund his war or him trying to assasinate the arl of red cliff for an advatage.

2.Nothing?....I'm sorry but years of studying the workings of reaper tech says nothing suggest TIM would want to control the reapers and use them to as way to advance humanity? Or get indoctrinated trying to do it?

So the nanotech they took from reapers and studied, the husk experiments in ME1, the studing of  a reaper corpes, the vast collecting of reaper tech, and the start of experiments on live subject to see the evolution of indoctionations from before ME3 says TIM is not tring to study and take reaper tech as his own?
Let not for get the years of trying to find a way to gain a stable form of mind control to control the super weapon project cerberus came up with as well.

Please, a blind man can see that TIM is trying to take the reapers and there tech as his own. Heck, He was even the only one in the story to see they were just a bunch of out of control tools.

1.) Not really, no. Thing is, Loghain's decisions were strategic, and ME3TIM's decisions were LOLEVIL or LOLINDOCTRINATED or both. Why shoot up the Citadel and not kidnap or kill the Council quietly? LOLEVIL. Why fight for those you are seeking to destroy? LOLINDOCTRINATED.

2.) Why does seeking technology make one evil? Are you some sort of Luddite?

[TheBlackAdder13]

I actually don't mind exploring the idea of red lyrium further. Just as long as they don't use it as a cheap writing cop-out like they did with Meredith.

[leaguer of one]

Br3ad wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

1. That's exactly why it's a dumb idea.

2. No it's not.It was pointless move to make a villian. Nothing ever suggested that TIM would do any such thing, total 180 inc character. Two, the Normandy rebuild operation was the most high risk thing Cerberus did. And it turned on them.

1. No it not. There more to it then than just power of power sake. This is power to impose order.These are people who are willing go th the extreme to get an advantage in a war they are trying to impose order in. it added a question of how far one would go for victory. It's no different from Logian selling elves for slave to fund his war or him trying to assasinate the arl of red cliff for an advatage.

2.Nothing?....I'm sorry but years of working of reaper tech says nothing suggest TIM would want to control the reapers and use them to as way to advance humanity? Or get indoctrinated trying to do it?

So the nanotech they took from reapers and stidied, the husk experiments in ME1, the studing of  a reaper corpes, the vast collecting of reaper tech, and the start of experiments on live subject to see the evolution of indoctionations says TIM is not tring to study and take reaper tech as his own?
Let not for get the years of trying to find a way to gain a stable form of mind control to control the super weapon project cerberus came up with as well.

Please, a blind man can see that TIM is trying to take the reapers and there tech as his own. Heck, He was even the only one in the story to see they were just a bunch of out of control tools.

1. The concept of Red Lyrium itself is stupid. Again, point missed.

2. None of that suggest that TIM would use it on himself for instance. And study something does not mean that you will use it on anyone. It's a study to understand it, in a more sensical world, to also combat it. You're using a fallacy when you say that because someone studies something, they must also want to abuse it and use it. 

1.No it not a point miss. Red Lyrium is inheritly a power up. The only reason why the templers use it is becuse it gives them a massive power up. Yes it has dire effects but the question comes up with the point whether the benifits are worth the risk of the faults. With it having that effect it not a bad issue to have being that they are at war and are trying to get as much as an advanatge as possible. The only reason the templars want it is because they are trying to win a war for order. That makes it not stupid to have it in the plot. The fact it's a choice to take it with a clear reason  they take it makes it not stupid to have it there.

2. Dude, the time he used it on himself is at the point he was indoctrinated. He did not have a choice in the matter. It started as an act of him trying to control the reapers but ended up getting controled to the point of letting himself get more implanted. They was to point out his fall. That was the only 180 he did but that is because he became indoctrinated trying to do what he was planning to do in the first place.

[Lotion Soronarr]

billy the squid wrote...

Red Lyrium is a mind numbingly dumb concept and the writing team needs to move away from ideas that they came up with while they were on a bad acid trip. It's a cack handed way of making a villain to fight, make him buckets of crazy and then crowbar in a "thou must" position. It was the same with Cerberus, they went from a shady covert organisation in ME1 to buckets of crazy galactic spanning conquest because of "indoctrination"

Bravo BioWare, bravo.

Seconded.

[myahele]

I wonder if these transformed red templars will be common or will it be just 1 person who somehow manage to keep their mind?

it seems like there will be alot of transformations now

Templars=behemoths
Mages=abominations
Gray warden= ghouls
Flemeth= dragon or vice versa

[Br3admax]

1. You are trying to argue why a concept needs to be there. Templars need red lyrium as much as Templars need the normal kind. Not at all. They can already nullify mana, they can already stop hostile magic, they can already cut down mages with ease. The edge red lyrium gives is unneeded. It's just another reason to throw in another villain.

2.You are using your own speculation to fuel your argument. You know none of this, you're just throwing out something to make sense of a nonsense situation. There is nothing to suggest that the Illusive Man was indoctrinated until they needed one. I doubt the Illusive Man was personally doing every bit of Cerberus research so explain to me when he had the chance to become indoctrinated. Or are you a part of the "It took twenty years but it still happened," crowd?

In essence, you are trying to make sense, for the written nonsense. 

Modifié par Br3ad, 28 septembre 2013 - 04:11 .

[leaguer of one]

Volus Warlord wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

1. That's exactly why it's a dumb idea.

2. No it's not.It was pointless move to make a villian. Nothing ever suggested that TIM would do any such thing, total 180 inc character. Two, the Normandy rebuild operation was the most high risk thing Cerberus did. And it turned on them.

1. No it not. There more to it then than just power of power sake. This is power to impose order.These are people who are willing go th the extreme to get an advantage in a war they are trying to impose order in. it added a question of how far one would go for victory. It's no different from Logian selling elves for slave to fund his war or him trying to assasinate the arl of red cliff for an advatage.

2.Nothing?....I'm sorry but years of studying the workings of reaper tech says nothing suggest TIM would want to control the reapers and use them to as way to advance humanity? Or get indoctrinated trying to do it?

So the nanotech they took from reapers and studied, the husk experiments in ME1, the studing of  a reaper corpes, the vast collecting of reaper tech, and the start of experiments on live subject to see the evolution of indoctionations from before ME3 says TIM is not tring to study and take reaper tech as his own?
Let not for get the years of trying to find a way to gain a stable form of mind control to control the super weapon project cerberus came up with as well.

Please, a blind man can see that TIM is trying to take the reapers and there tech as his own. Heck, He was even the only one in the story to see they were just a bunch of out of control tools.

1.) Not really, no. Thing is, Loghain's decisions were strategic, and ME3TIM's decisions were LOLEVIL or LOLINDOCTRINATED or both. Why shoot up the Citadel and not kidnap or kill the Council quietly? LOLEVIL. Why fight for those you are seeking to destroy? LOLINDOCTRINATED.

2.) Why does seeking technology make one evil? Are you some sort of Luddite?

1.No it not a point miss. Red Lyrium is inheritly a power up. The only reason why the templers use it is becuse it gives them a massive power up. Yes it has dire effects but the question comes up with the point whether the benifits are worth the risk of the faults. With it having that effect it not a bad issue to have being that they are at war and are trying to get as much as an advanatge as possible. The only reason the templars want it is because they are trying to win a war for order. That makes it not stupid to have it in the plot. The fact it's a choice to take it with a clear reason  they take it makes it not stupid to have it there.
It's not the same case with Meredith who did not know what she had.

2. Wow, now you are missing the point.  Cerberus was never good in the forst place. It not the the tech made him evil, he was already of moral bankrupcy before the reaper tech. Cerberus is an organization know for experiments and advancement while throwing all ethics out the window. They as so ruthless to do anything to get to there end and this was shown time and time again. If you thing cerberus is morally grey only, you were fooled. If you look at nearly any cerberus project you would see that you would not cerberus in control of anythign because they lack ethics. And that was before me3.

[Lotion Soronarr]

leaguer of one wrote...
1.It's not a dumb idea. It's the same consept as mages turning to blood magic and demons for more power.Yes, blood magic is not inherity evil but the draw of power can lead to it.

Yes it is. Super-extra-mega dumb...with sprinkels on top.
What exactly was gained from it? What does it add to the narrative? Why was it done?

It is stupid. A lazy way to create an antagonist. This is worse than "crazy blood mages everywhere" in DAII.

2. Cerberus becoming indoctrinated is something anyone can see coming from a mile from ME1. They were always a high risk, high rewards organization and it bit them in the ass. Only the 2nd normandy rebuild project was not high risk.

No, Me3 plot was garbage, and so were big parts of ME2's plot.

[leaguer of one]

Br3ad wrote...

1. You are trying to argue why a concept needs to be there. Templars need red lyrium as much as Templars need the normal kind. Not at all. They can already nullify mana, they can already stop hostile magic, they can already cut down mages with ease. The edge red lyrium gives is unneeded. It's just another reason to throw in another villain.

2.You are using your own speculation to fuel your argument. You know none of this, you're just throwing out something to make sense of a nonsense situation. There is nothing to suggest that the Illusive Man was indoctrinated until they needed one. I doubt the Illusive Man was personally doing every bit of Cerberus research so explain to me when he had the chance to become indoctrinated. Or are you a part of the "It took twenty years but it still happened," crowd?

1. I never said they needed it. I said it gave them an advantage by using it. Added, templers have amassive need for lyrium to the point that if they become useless if they don't have it for a month. The question is not need but advantage. In war, people look to they to get as much of an advantage they can get to fight them, even to the point of some negative effects. That is the question that is on hand.

2. It's not a speculation. Even his former henchmen pointed out he was eventullu indoctrinated. You think he would , in the right mind, would put reaper tech in his body. Added, there is a reaper corpse next to his office...In his base. How does he not get indoctrinated?

[leaguer of one]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
1.It's not a dumb idea. It's the same consept as mages turning to blood magic and demons for more power.Yes, blood magic is not inherity evil but the draw of power can lead to it.

Yes it is. Super-extra-mega dumb...with sprinkels on top.
What exactly was gained from it? What does it add to the narrative? Why was it done?

It is stupid. A lazy way to create an antagonist. This is worse than "crazy blood mages everywhere" in DAII.

2. Cerberus becoming indoctrinated is something anyone can see coming from a mile from ME1. They were always a high risk, high rewards organization and it bit them in the ass. Only the 2nd normandy rebuild project was not high risk.

No, Me3 plot was garbage, and so were big parts of ME2's plot.

1.No it not. The fact that it brings up a question of how for someonr would go for an advantage in war and the fact that it's the templars choice to take it makes it not dumd.

2. Dude, even if you only count ME1, you can see cerberus was going to get indoctriated...Especially if you look at the husk experiment they did from ME1. 

[katerinafm]

At least we had foreshadowing about red lyrium in DA2, not like me2 where cerberus was pretty neutral until they became the second main villain out of nowhere in me3.
I just hope they don't act exactly like Cerberus and that not ALL templars are suddenly evil and have access to red lyrium out of nowhere. That would be ridiculous, especially since DA2 was supposed to be 'morally grey' with you being able to side with templars or mages without one of the choices being considered evil (despite most people agreeing that siding with the mages is the lesser evil of the two). I hope we get a thorough explanation for it, not just 'hey all templars are bad now because red lyrium okbye' .

[Volus Warlord]

leaguer of one wrote...

1.No it not a point miss. Red Lyrium is inheritly a power up. The only reason why the templers use it is becuse it gives them a massive power up. Yes it has dire effects but the question comes up with the point whether the benifits are worth the risk of the faults. With it having that effect it not a bad issue to have being that they are at war and are trying to get as much as an advanatge as possible. The only reason the templars want it is because they are trying to win a war for order. That makes it not stupid to have it in the plot. The fact it's a choice to take it with a clear reason  they take it makes it not stupid to have it there.
It's not the same case with Meredith who did not know what she had.

2. Wow, now you are missing the point.  Cerberus was never good in the forst place. It not the the tech made him evil, he was already of moral bankrupcy before the reaper tech. Cerberus is an organization know for experiments and advancement while throwing all ethics out the window. They as so ruthless to do anything to get to there end and this was shown time and time again. If you thing cerberus is morally grey only, you were fooled. If you look at nearly any cerberus project you would see that you would not cerberus in control of anythign because they lack ethics. And that was before me3.

1.) Do we really know why the Templars began to take it? If the Templars all agreed it was good, why transition to "Red Templars?" Who said the Templars were all ruthless? And why should I be content with "not stupid?" Why should I think crazy pills are an innovative and legit plot device? 

And please don't use DA2's plot as a reference for credibility. Ever. 

2.) Moral Ambiguity =/= Moral Bankruptcy. TIM had goals that he would not compromise in reaching. That is utilitarianism.

Also, you should take a look at today's technology and the advancement to it, and see how much of it was researched and/or popularized by throwing ethics out of the window. You'd be surprised.

[Br3admax]

leaguer of one wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

1. You are trying to argue why a concept needs to be there. Templars need red lyrium as much as Templars need the normal kind. Not at all. They can already nullify mana, they can already stop hostile magic, they can already cut down mages with ease. The edge red lyrium gives is unneeded. It's just another reason to throw in another villain.

2.You are using your own speculation to fuel your argument. You know none of this, you're just throwing out something to make sense of a nonsense situation. There is nothing to suggest that the Illusive Man was indoctrinated until they needed one. I doubt the Illusive Man was personally doing every bit of Cerberus research so explain to me when he had the chance to become indoctrinated. Or are you a part of the "It took twenty years but it still happened," crowd?

1. I never said they needed it. I said it gave them an advantage by using it. Added, templers have amassive need for lyrium to the point that if they become useless if they don't have it for a month. The question is not need but advantage. In war, people look to they to get as much of an advantage they can get to fight them, even to the point of some negative effects. That is the question that is on hand.

There is no need for the concept. That is what I am saying. It's pointless in almost every fashion for them to even be able to aquire a sample of lyrium that only has one known source and then be able to distibute it on any kind of effective scale.

2. It's not a speculation. Even his former henchmen pointed out he was eventullu indoctrinated. You think he would , in the right mind, would put reaper tech in his body. Added, there is a reaper corpse next to his office...In his base. How does he not get indoctrinated?

The same way that entire group of Cerberus scientist rescued with Jacob are not. Indoctrination means nothing unless plot. 

[TheBlackAdder13]

Yes it is. Super-extra-mega dumb...with sprinkels on top.
What exactly was gained from it? What does it add to the narrative? Why was it done?

It creates a situation wherein some templars use the exact same questionable/dangerous morality as blood mages with the same consequences, serving as a direct thematic parallel to blood magic, making these templars exactly the same as those they purport to be protecting the world from.

What exactly is gained from blood magic and abominations? What does it add to the narrative?

As long as it's not overused as a plot device like it was in DA II it's fine.

There is no need for the concept. That is what I am saying. It's pointless in almost every fashion for them to even be able to aquire a sample of lyrium that only has one known source and then be able to distibute it on any kind of effective scale.

You're making an awful lot of assumptions about where they're getting the red lyrium from here. Assumptions that have a strong chance of being incorrect as you're not privy to the writers pit. 

Modifié par TheBlackAdder13, 28 septembre 2013 - 04:24 .

[Br3admax]

TheBlackAdder13 wrote...

Yes it is. Super-extra-mega dumb...with sprinkels on top.
What exactly was gained from it? What does it add to the narrative? Why was it done?

It creates a situation wherein some templars use the exact same questionable/dangerous morality as blood mages with the same consequences, serving as a direct thematic parallel to blood magic, making these templars exactly the same as those they purport to be protecting the world from.

What exactly is gained from blood magic and abominations? What does it add to the narrative?

As long as it's not overused as a plot device like it was in DA II it's fine.

Stop it. You'll jinx us if you keep saying that. 

[leaguer of one]

Volus Warlord wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

1.No it not a point miss. Red Lyrium is inheritly a power up. The only reason why the templers use it is becuse it gives them a massive power up. Yes it has dire effects but the question comes up with the point whether the benifits are worth the risk of the faults. With it having that effect it not a bad issue to have being that they are at war and are trying to get as much as an advanatge as possible. The only reason the templars want it is because they are trying to win a war for order. That makes it not stupid to have it in the plot. The fact it's a choice to take it with a clear reason  they take it makes it not stupid to have it there.
It's not the same case with Meredith who did not know what she had.

2. Wow, now you are missing the point.  Cerberus was never good in the forst place. It not the the tech made him evil, he was already of moral bankrupcy before the reaper tech. Cerberus is an organization know for experiments and advancement while throwing all ethics out the window. They as so ruthless to do anything to get to there end and this was shown time and time again. If you thing cerberus is morally grey only, you were fooled. If you look at nearly any cerberus project you would see that you would not cerberus in control of anythign because they lack ethics. And that was before me3.

1.) Do we really know why the Templars began to take it? If the Templars all agreed it was good, why transition to "Red Templars?" Who said the Templars were all ruthless? And why should I be content with "not stupid?" Why should I think crazy pills are an innovative and legit plot device? 

And please don't use DA2's plot as a reference for credibility. Ever. 

2.) Moral Ambiguity =/= Moral Bankruptcy. TIM had goals that he would not compromise in reaching. That is utilitarianism.

Also, you should take a look at today's technology and the advancement to it, and see how much of it was researched and/or popularized by throwing ethics out of the window. You'd be surprised.

1. I'm not using da2 as a referance. I'm using common understanding of human nature in war...You know the same human nature the use chemical weapons in WW1. Not every templer is the same. In fact the templar are divide with in themselves, it's not templar vs mage but factions of one side fight other factions. I never siad all templar would take red lyrium. It 's a choice not something that controls some one and makes the take it. Some will take it some won't...Like some templars with be pro mage, some will be pro chantry, some with be anti chantry and others with be red templars. No  all templars will be red templars. The fact it;s choice and a question of what some one would do to get an advantage makes it not stupid.

2. I said he had no ethics not no morals. I never said tecknology and advancement are evil. I said how it's done makes the difference. There is a difference with getting volenteers to allow them selve to get experimented on out to reasonable term for a group who tricks and kidnaps people to do lethal or extremely hazerdus experiments on.
And reguardless to what you say the point still stand that cerberus does there experiment with out ethic letting anything be allowed to get an end reguardless to the harm it does. 

[leaguer of one]

katerinafm wrote...

At least we had foreshadowing about red lyrium in DA2, not like me2 where cerberus was pretty neutral until they became the second main villain out of nowhere in me3.
I just hope they don't act exactly like Cerberus and that not ALL templars are suddenly evil and have access to red lyrium out of nowhere. That would be ridiculous, especially since DA2 was supposed to be 'morally grey' with you being able to side with templars or mages without one of the choices being considered evil (despite most people agreeing that siding with the mages is the lesser evil of the two). I hope we get a thorough explanation for it, not just 'hey all templars are bad now because red lyrium okbye' .

For the last time. Them being neutal was a trick.The fact they were still doing experiment and action with no ethics makes this clear.

[leaguer of one]

Br3ad wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

1. You are trying to argue why a concept needs to be there. Templars need red lyrium as much as Templars need the normal kind. Not at all. They can already nullify mana, they can already stop hostile magic, they can already cut down mages with ease. The edge red lyrium gives is unneeded. It's just another reason to throw in another villain.

2.You are using your own speculation to fuel your argument. You know none of this, you're just throwing out something to make sense of a nonsense situation. There is nothing to suggest that the Illusive Man was indoctrinated until they needed one. I doubt the Illusive Man was personally doing every bit of Cerberus research so explain to me when he had the chance to become indoctrinated. Or are you a part of the "It took twenty years but it still happened," crowd?

1. I never said they needed it. I said it gave them an advantage by using it. Added, templers have amassive need for lyrium to the point that if they become useless if they don't have it for a month. The question is not need but advantage. In war, people look to they to get as much of an advantage they can get to fight them, even to the point of some negative effects. That is the question that is on hand.

There is no need for the concept. That is what I am saying. It's pointless in almost every fashion for them to even be able to aquire a sample of lyrium that only has one known source and then be able to distibute it on any kind of effective scale.

2. It's not a speculation. Even his former henchmen pointed out he was eventullu indoctrinated. You think he would , in the right mind, would put reaper tech in his body. Added, there is a reaper corpse next to his office...In his base. How does he not get indoctrinated?

The same way that entire group of Cerberus scientist rescued with Jacob are not. Indoctrination means nothing unless plot. 

1.There is plenty need for it like blood magic, reaver skills, and all the horrible thing you can do to get to an end in dao and da2. The question of means to an end is inherite with the story.

2.There a difference between direct constat exposer and limit exposer to reaper tech. This is made clear in the plot it's self. TIM being on a base with a reaper corpse in it from some point after ME:retribution  to much of ME3 makes it clear HE got a massive amount of exposer to get indoctrinated. And let not for get the iexposer he had before that.

[billy the squid]

leaguer of one wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Red Lyrium is a mind numbingly dumb concept and the writing team needs to move away from ideas that they came up with while they were on a bad acid trip. It's a cack handed way of making a villain to fight, make him buckets of crazy and then crowbar in a "thou must" position. It was the same with Cerberus, they went from a shady covert organisation in ME1 to buckets of crazy galactic spanning conquest because of "indoctrination"

Bravo BioWare, bravo.

1.It's not a dumb idea. It's the same consept as mages turning to blood magic and demons for more power.Yes, blood magic is not inherity evil but the draw of power can lead to it. 

2. Cerberus becoming indoctrinated is something anyone can see coming from a mile from ME1. They were always a high risk, high rewards organization and it bit them in the ass. Only the 2nd normandy rebuild project was not high risk.

If you like saturday morning cartoon villany with all the finesse of a crayon drawing making the entire individual or organisation a grotesque characature, then no it's not a dumb idea. If you were aiming for a comic book villain twirling his moustache and planning world domination from his secret volcano lair then spot on. If you actually wanted to make it a believable, well thought out aspect then it's mind numbingly stupid.




^ This is an example of a comedic villain, this is what Cerberus turned into, and what DA2 did.

Modifié par billy the squid, 28 septembre 2013 - 04:49 .

[Lokiwithrope]

This isn't going to turn into an off-topic discussion that's going to get the thread closed, is it?

Modifié par Lokiwithrope, 28 septembre 2013 - 04:50 .