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[Br3admax]

leaguer of one wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

1. You are trying to argue why a concept needs to be there. Templars need red lyrium as much as Templars need the normal kind. Not at all. They can already nullify mana, they can already stop hostile magic, they can already cut down mages with ease. The edge red lyrium gives is unneeded. It's just another reason to throw in another villain.

2.You are using your own speculation to fuel your argument. You know none of this, you're just throwing out something to make sense of a nonsense situation. There is nothing to suggest that the Illusive Man was indoctrinated until they needed one. I doubt the Illusive Man was personally doing every bit of Cerberus research so explain to me when he had the chance to become indoctrinated. Or are you a part of the "It took twenty years but it still happened," crowd?

1. I never said they needed it. I said it gave them an advantage by using it. Added, templers have amassive need for lyrium to the point that if they become useless if they don't have it for a month. The question is not need but advantage. In war, people look to they to get as much of an advantage they can get to fight them, even to the point of some negative effects. That is the question that is on hand.

There is no need for the concept. That is what I am saying. It's pointless in almost every fashion for them to even be able to aquire a sample of lyrium that only has one known source and then be able to distibute it on any kind of effective scale.

2. It's not a speculation. Even his former henchmen pointed out he was eventullu indoctrinated. You think he would , in the right mind, would put reaper tech in his body. Added, there is a reaper corpse next to his office...In his base. How does he not get indoctrinated?

The same way that entire group of Cerberus scientist rescued with Jacob are not. Indoctrination means nothing unless plot. 

1.There is plenty need for it like blood magic, reaver skills, and all the horrible thing you can do to get to an end in dao and da2. The question of means to an end is inherite with the story.

2.There a difference between direct constat exposer and limit exposer to reaper tech. This is made clear in the plot it's self. TIM being on a base with a reaper corpse in it from some point after ME:retribution  to much of ME3 makes it clear HE got a massive amount of exposer to get indoctrinated. And let not for get the iexposer he had before that.

1. As soon as you said that there was a need for "muhhahahah," your argument became invalid. 
2. Scientist are always there and always studying. And no, it does not require any of those things. Try again. 

[cjones91]

katerinafm wrote...

At least we had foreshadowing about red lyrium in DA2, not like me2 where cerberus was pretty neutral until they became the second main villain out of nowhere in me3.
I just hope they don't act exactly like Cerberus and that not ALL templars are suddenly evil and have access to red lyrium out of nowhere. That would be ridiculous, especially since DA2 was supposed to be 'morally grey' with you being able to side with templars or mages without one of the choices being considered evil (despite most people agreeing that siding with the mages is the lesser evil of the two). I hope we get a thorough explanation for it, not just 'hey all templars are bad now because red lyrium okbye' .

Lol,Cerberus was never neutral,they just put on a front in ME2 but TIM was never a good person for helping Shepard since he did so for his own ends.

[katerinafm]

leaguer of one wrote...

katerinafm wrote...

At least we had foreshadowing about red lyrium in DA2, not like me2 where cerberus was pretty neutral until they became the second main villain out of nowhere in me3.
I just hope they don't act exactly like Cerberus and that not ALL templars are suddenly evil and have access to red lyrium out of nowhere. That would be ridiculous, especially since DA2 was supposed to be 'morally grey' with you being able to side with templars or mages without one of the choices being considered evil (despite most people agreeing that siding with the mages is the lesser evil of the two). I hope we get a thorough explanation for it, not just 'hey all templars are bad now because red lyrium okbye' .

For the last time. Them being neutal was a trick.The fact they were still doing experiment and action with no ethics makes this clear.

I was talking to the op, not entering the argument you're having . Unless the writers come out and say what it was meant to look like, I'm allowed to my opinion, as are you.

[leaguer of one]

billy the squid wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Red Lyrium is a mind numbingly dumb concept and the writing team needs to move away from ideas that they came up with while they were on a bad acid trip. It's a cack handed way of making a villain to fight, make him buckets of crazy and then crowbar in a "thou must" position. It was the same with Cerberus, they went from a shady covert organisation in ME1 to buckets of crazy galactic spanning conquest because of "indoctrination"

Bravo BioWare, bravo.

1.It's not a dumb idea. It's the same consept as mages turning to blood magic and demons for more power.Yes, blood magic is not inherity evil but the draw of power can lead to it. 

2. Cerberus becoming indoctrinated is something anyone can see coming from a mile from ME1. They were always a high risk, high rewards organization and it bit them in the ass. Only the 2nd normandy rebuild project was not high risk.

If you like saturday morning cartoon villany with all the finesse of a crayon drawing making the entire individual or organisation a grotesque characature, then no it's not a dumb idea. If you were aiming for a comic book villain twirling his moustache and planning world domination from his secret volcano lair then spot on. If you actually wanted to make it a believable, well thought out aspect then it's mind numbingly stupid.




^ This is what an example of a comedic villain is, this is what Cerberus turned into, and what DA2 did.

Please. I'm sorry but you got it wrong . With the  years of studying the workings of reaper tech says nothing suggest TIM would want to control the reapers and use them to as way to advance humanity? Or get indoctrinated trying to do it?

So the nanotech they took from reapers and studied, the husk experiments in ME1, the studing of  a reaper corpes, the vast collecting of reaper tech, and the start of experiments on live subject to see the evolution of indoctionations from before ME3 says TIM is not tring to study and take reaper tech as his own?
Let not for get the years of trying to find a way to gain a stable form of mind control to control the super weapon project cerberus came up with as well.

Please, a blind man can see that TIM is trying to take the reapers and there tech as his own. Heck, He was even the only one in the story to see they were just a bunch of out of control tools.


What your not getting that cerberus had done a mountain of horrible things in the series. And they all cover it out with the excuse of being morally grey. You don't think that is an issue? They crushed so many innocent people to there end and simple cover it up with the statement that they are moraly grey. And you beleived it? Then they do the same thing again in ME3 and suddenly they are saterday morning villians?
Sorry but you need to look at ther history more and stop being so gullible.


With the read templers is more then just bad for bad sake or  power of power sake. This is power to impose order.These are people who are willing go th the extreme to get an advantage in a war they are trying to impose order in. it added a question of how far one would go for victory. It's no different from Logian selling elves for slave to fund his war or him trying to assasinate the arl of red cliff for an advatage.

 Red Lyrium is inheritly a power up. The only reason why the templers use it is becuse it gives them a massive power up. Yes it has dire effects but the question comes up with the point whether the benifits are worth the risk of the faults. With it having that effect it not a bad issue to have being that they are at war and are trying to get as much as an advanatge as possible. The only reason the templars want it is because they are trying to win a war for order. That makes it not stupid to have it in the plot. The fact it's a choice to take it with a clear reason  they take it makes it not stupid to have it there.

Not every templer is the same. In fact the templar are divide with in themselves, it's not templar vs mage but factions of one side fight other factions. I never siad all templar would take red lyrium. It 's a choice not something that controls some one and makes the take it. Some will take it some won't...Like some templars with be pro mage, some will be pro chantry, some with be anti chantry and others with be red templars. No  all templars will be red templars. The fact it;s choice and a question of what some one would do to get an advantage makes it not stupid.

You need to think about much more nad not just to an assumption.

[leaguer of one]

katerinafm wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

katerinafm wrote...

At least we had foreshadowing about red lyrium in DA2, not like me2 where cerberus was pretty neutral until they became the second main villain out of nowhere in me3.
I just hope they don't act exactly like Cerberus and that not ALL templars are suddenly evil and have access to red lyrium out of nowhere. That would be ridiculous, especially since DA2 was supposed to be 'morally grey' with you being able to side with templars or mages without one of the choices being considered evil (despite most people agreeing that siding with the mages is the lesser evil of the two). I hope we get a thorough explanation for it, not just 'hey all templars are bad now because red lyrium okbye' .

For the last time. Them being neutal was a trick.The fact they were still doing experiment and action with no ethics makes this clear.

I was talking to the op, not entering the argument you're having . Unless the writers come out and say what it was meant to look like, I'm allowed to my opinion, as are you.

So the video's in cerberus base is not proof enough it was a trick?

[MisterJB]

leaguer of one wrote...
1.No it not a point miss. Red Lyrium is inheritly a power up. The only reason why the templers use it is becuse it gives them a massive power up. Yes it has dire effects but the question comes up with the point whether the benifits are worth the risk of the faults. With it having that effect it not a bad issue to have being that they are at war and are trying to get as much as an advanatge as possible. The only reason the templars want it is because they are trying to win a war for order. That makes it not stupid to have it in the plot. The fact it's a choice to take it with a clear reason  they take it makes it not stupid to have it there.

The problem is that Bioware has an historial of using poorly-tought devices that can make the suffered insane in order to justify them doing whatever they need for the plot to advance as well as having faceless mooks you'll feel no regret killing. Imagine if Loghain had done his actions not because of a paranoia caused by growying up under the orlesian occupation but because the Archdemon mind controlled him.

Does that mean Red Lyrium can't be used well? I don't think so; personally, I'd use it to show how being a Templar is, by no means, easy but I'm sure there are other ways. I'm just scared they'll use it in order to be able to insert Templars whenever they need an enemy to fight which would also damage the complexity plot of the Templar/Mage issue.

[cjones91]

leaguer of one wrote...

katerinafm wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

katerinafm wrote...

At least we had foreshadowing about red lyrium in DA2, not like me2 where cerberus was pretty neutral until they became the second main villain out of nowhere in me3.
I just hope they don't act exactly like Cerberus and that not ALL templars are suddenly evil and have access to red lyrium out of nowhere. That would be ridiculous, especially since DA2 was supposed to be 'morally grey' with you being able to side with templars or mages without one of the choices being considered evil (despite most people agreeing that siding with the mages is the lesser evil of the two). I hope we get a thorough explanation for it, not just 'hey all templars are bad now because red lyrium okbye' .

For the last time. Them being neutal was a trick.The fact they were still doing experiment and action with no ethics makes this clear.

I was talking to the op, not entering the argument you're having . Unless the writers come out and say what it was meant to look like, I'm allowed to my opinion, as are you.

So the video's in cerberus base is not proof enough it was a trick?

Cerberus supporters have been denying Cerberus as being bad for years now.

[leaguer of one]

Br3ad wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

1. You are trying to argue why a concept needs to be there. Templars need red lyrium as much as Templars need the normal kind. Not at all. They can already nullify mana, they can already stop hostile magic, they can already cut down mages with ease. The edge red lyrium gives is unneeded. It's just another reason to throw in another villain.

2.You are using your own speculation to fuel your argument. You know none of this, you're just throwing out something to make sense of a nonsense situation. There is nothing to suggest that the Illusive Man was indoctrinated until they needed one. I doubt the Illusive Man was personally doing every bit of Cerberus research so explain to me when he had the chance to become indoctrinated. Or are you a part of the "It took twenty years but it still happened," crowd?

1. I never said they needed it. I said it gave them an advantage by using it. Added, templers have amassive need for lyrium to the point that if they become useless if they don't have it for a month. The question is not need but advantage. In war, people look to they to get as much of an advantage they can get to fight them, even to the point of some negative effects. That is the question that is on hand.

There is no need for the concept. That is what I am saying. It's pointless in almost every fashion for them to even be able to aquire a sample of lyrium that only has one known source and then be able to distibute it on any kind of effective scale.

2. It's not a speculation. Even his former henchmen pointed out he was eventullu indoctrinated. You think he would , in the right mind, would put reaper tech in his body. Added, there is a reaper corpse next to his office...In his base. How does he not get indoctrinated?

The same way that entire group of Cerberus scientist rescued with Jacob are not. Indoctrination means nothing unless plot. 

1.There is plenty need for it like blood magic, reaver skills, and all the horrible thing you can do to get to an end in dao and da2. The question of means to an end is inherite with the story.

2.There a difference between direct constat exposer and limit exposer to reaper tech. This is made clear in the plot it's self. TIM being on a base with a reaper corpse in it from some point after ME:retribution  to much of ME3 makes it clear HE got a massive amount of exposer to get indoctrinated. And let not for get the iexposer he had before that.

1. As soon as you said that there was a need for "muhhahahah," your argument became invalid. 
2. Scientist are always there and always studying. And no, it does not require any of those things. Try again. 

1. Then you are not getting my point still. It's need for a sake of an arguement and point....Like all conriversal choices in teh plot. It's there of the player to think about it.

2. No they were not. Those scientist were studying collecter tech from the base. They would not get the till after the end of ME2. The would of had it for a limited time. TIM is right next to a reaper corpse. That is much different being that he never left the base after me retribution and has some reaper implants in him already.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 28 septembre 2013 - 05:02 .

[Spectre slayer]

Not all of the Templars will be drinking the liquefied Red Lyrium since it's only a splinter faction that isdoing so, it will be in the game and we will either get some more clarification or full resolution on the topic of what it is, where it came from, why are some Templars drinking it and where did they get it.

[Vit246]

Anyway.....

OP, like your idea. Loved that movie.

[billy the squid]

leaguer of one wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Red Lyrium is a mind numbingly dumb concept and the writing team needs to move away from ideas that they came up with while they were on a bad acid trip. It's a cack handed way of making a villain to fight, make him buckets of crazy and then crowbar in a "thou must" position. It was the same with Cerberus, they went from a shady covert organisation in ME1 to buckets of crazy galactic spanning conquest because of "indoctrination"

Bravo BioWare, bravo.

1.It's not a dumb idea. It's the same consept as mages turning to blood magic and demons for more power.Yes, blood magic is not inherity evil but the draw of power can lead to it. 

2. Cerberus becoming indoctrinated is something anyone can see coming from a mile from ME1. They were always a high risk, high rewards organization and it bit them in the ass. Only the 2nd normandy rebuild project was not high risk.

If you like saturday morning cartoon villany with all the finesse of a crayon drawing making the entire individual or organisation a grotesque characature, then no it's not a dumb idea. If you were aiming for a comic book villain twirling his moustache and planning world domination from his secret volcano lair then spot on. If you actually wanted to make it a believable, well thought out aspect then it's mind numbingly stupid.




^ This is what an example of a comedic villain is, this is what Cerberus turned into, and what DA2 did.

Please. I'm sorry but you got it wrong . With the  years of studying the workings of reaper tech says nothing suggest TIM would want to control the reapers and use them to as way to advance humanity? Or get indoctrinated trying to do it?

So the nanotech they took from reapers and studied, the husk experiments in ME1, the studing of  a reaper corpes, the vast collecting of reaper tech, and the start of experiments on live subject to see the evolution of indoctionations from before ME3 says TIM is not tring to study and take reaper tech as his own?
Let not for get the years of trying to find a way to gain a stable form of mind control to control the super weapon project cerberus came up with as well.

Please, a blind man can see that TIM is trying to take the reapers and there tech as his own. Heck, He was even the only one in the story to see they were just a bunch of out of control tools.


What your not getting that cerberus had done a mountain of horrible things in the series. And they all cover it out with the excuse of being morally grey. You don't think that is an issue? They crushed so many innocent people to there end and simple cover it up with the statement that they are moraly grey. And you beleived it? Then they do the same thing again in ME3 and suddenly they are saterday morning villians?
Sorry but you need to look at ther history more and stop being so gullible.


With the read templers is more then just bad for bad sake or  power of power sake. This is power to impose order.These are people who are willing go th the extreme to get an advantage in a war they are trying to impose order in. it added a question of how far one would go for victory. It's no different from Logian selling elves for slave to fund his war or him trying to assasinate the arl of red cliff for an advatage.

 Red Lyrium is inheritly a power up. The only reason why the templers use it is becuse it gives them a massive power up. Yes it has dire effects but the question comes up with the point whether the benifits are worth the risk of the faults. With it having that effect it not a bad issue to have being that they are at war and are trying to get as much as an advanatge as possible. The only reason the templars want it is because they are trying to win a war for order. That makes it not stupid to have it in the plot. The fact it's a choice to take it with a clear reason  they take it makes it not stupid to have it there.

Not every templer is the same. In fact the templar are divide with in themselves, it's not templar vs mage but factions of one side fight other factions. I never siad all templar would take red lyrium. It 's a choice not something that controls some one and makes the take it. Some will take it some won't...Like some templars with be pro mage, some will be pro chantry, some with be anti chantry and others with be red templars. No  all templars will be red templars. The fact it;s choice and a question of what some one would do to get an advantage makes it not stupid.

You need to think about much more nad not just to an assumption.

Behold your core fans BioWare, you can crap on a plate and call it ice cream and these people will attempt to justify it. It's like looking at a case of stockholm syndrome.

[katerinafm]

leaguer of one wrote...

katerinafm wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

katerinafm wrote...

At least we had foreshadowing about red lyrium in DA2, not like me2 where cerberus was pretty neutral until they became the second main villain out of nowhere in me3.
I just hope they don't act exactly like Cerberus and that not ALL templars are suddenly evil and have access to red lyrium out of nowhere. That would be ridiculous, especially since DA2 was supposed to be 'morally grey' with you being able to side with templars or mages without one of the choices being considered evil (despite most people agreeing that siding with the mages is the lesser evil of the two). I hope we get a thorough explanation for it, not just 'hey all templars are bad now because red lyrium okbye' .

For the last time. Them being neutal was a trick.The fact they were still doing experiment and action with no ethics makes this clear.

I was talking to the op, not entering the argument you're having . Unless the writers come out and say what it was meant to look like, I'm allowed to my opinion, as are you.

So the video's in cerberus base is not proof enough it was a trick?

I'm not saying they were good, I was saying that despite doing bad things their intentions weren't necessarily bad, at least at first. Like how Avernus did bad experiments, but he did them to help the Wardens.

[Br3admax]

leaguer of one wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

1. You are trying to argue why a concept needs to be there. Templars need red lyrium as much as Templars need the normal kind. Not at all. They can already nullify mana, they can already stop hostile magic, they can already cut down mages with ease. The edge red lyrium gives is unneeded. It's just another reason to throw in another villain.

2.You are using your own speculation to fuel your argument. You know none of this, you're just throwing out something to make sense of a nonsense situation. There is nothing to suggest that the Illusive Man was indoctrinated until they needed one. I doubt the Illusive Man was personally doing every bit of Cerberus research so explain to me when he had the chance to become indoctrinated. Or are you a part of the "It took twenty years but it still happened," crowd?

1. I never said they needed it. I said it gave them an advantage by using it. Added, templers have amassive need for lyrium to the point that if they become useless if they don't have it for a month. The question is not need but advantage. In war, people look to they to get as much of an advantage they can get to fight them, even to the point of some negative effects. That is the question that is on hand.

There is no need for the concept. That is what I am saying. It's pointless in almost every fashion for them to even be able to aquire a sample of lyrium that only has one known source and then be able to distibute it on any kind of effective scale.

2. It's not a speculation. Even his former henchmen pointed out he was eventullu indoctrinated. You think he would , in the right mind, would put reaper tech in his body. Added, there is a reaper corpse next to his office...In his base. How does he not get indoctrinated?

The same way that entire group of Cerberus scientist rescued with Jacob are not. Indoctrination means nothing unless plot. 

1.There is plenty need for it like blood magic, reaver skills, and all the horrible thing you can do to get to an end in dao and da2. The question of means to an end is inherite with the story.

2.There a difference between direct constat exposer and limit exposer to reaper tech. This is made clear in the plot it's self. TIM being on a base with a reaper corpse in it from some point after ME:retribution  to much of ME3 makes it clear HE got a massive amount of exposer to get indoctrinated. And let not for get the iexposer he had before that.

1. As soon as you said that there was a need for "muhhahahah," your argument became invalid. 
2. Scientist are always there and always studying. And no, it does not require any of those things. Try again. 

1. Then you are not getting my point still. It's need for a sake of an arguement and point....Like all conriversal choices in teh plot. It's there of the player to think about it.

2. No they were not. Those scientist were studying collecter tech from the base. They would not get the till after the end of ME2. The would of had it for a limited time. TIM is right next to a reaper corpse. That is much different being that he never left the base after me retribution and has some reaper implants in him already.

1. No it's there to make a villan. It's there to show that Templars can be out of control just like blood mages. It's a failed attempt at making a gray plot. Similar to plenty of situations in ME. It's a half handed way at trying to make no right choice.

2. Nothing in game suggests any of your estimations on indoctrination are true. And indoctrination can happen in a few days. I doubt even the lab technitions were around any Reaper tech for less time. 

[leaguer of one]

MisterJB wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
1.No it not a point miss. Red Lyrium is inheritly a power up. The only reason why the templers use it is becuse it gives them a massive power up. Yes it has dire effects but the question comes up with the point whether the benifits are worth the risk of the faults. With it having that effect it not a bad issue to have being that they are at war and are trying to get as much as an advanatge as possible. The only reason the templars want it is because they are trying to win a war for order. That makes it not stupid to have it in the plot. The fact it's a choice to take it with a clear reason  they take it makes it not stupid to have it there.

The problem is that Bioware has an historial of using poorly-tought devices that can make the suffered insane in order to justify them doing whatever they need for the plot to advance as well as having faceless mooks you'll feel no regret killing. Imagine if Loghain had done his actions not because of a paranoia caused by growying up under the orlesian occupation but because the Archdemon mind controlled him.

Does that mean Red Lyrium can't be used well? I don't think so; personally, I'd use it to show how being a Templar is, by no means, easy but I'm sure there are other ways. I'm just scared they'll use it in order to be able to insert Templars whenever they need an enemy to fight which would also damage the complexity plot of the Templar/Mage issue.

There still point your missing. Using it is a choice. With Meredith her actions with controling the mages did not start with the Idol. She was pressing down before it go into her hands. She already had the fear of mages and magic and paranioa from before. The Idol just made it worse. Remeber, the templar war is not just mages vs templar, they are divide into mutiple factions in themselves. There is pro chantry, pro mages, anti chantry, and red templars with the templars themselves. The fact that it's a templars choice to take it makes it more of an issue of advantages.
It's going to be far mor complex then you think it will be.

[BlueMagitek]

That'd be pretty cool, TC, but I'm wondering why there isn't substantially more red lyrium around if it infects the living.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Survival doesn't care for ethics.
As for cerberus, ME2 itself is inconsistent and the writers were clearly running out of ideas for DLC, hence the "Cerberus experiment gone wrong" template which got so overused it became a subject of ridicule.

And no, studying reaper tech ins't stupid. Dangerous - extreemly - but not stupid.
You cannot defeat an enemy you know nothing about. You cannto fight agaisnt indoctrination if you dont' know how it works.

Sheppard and the rest of the team retard seem to forget that and put their trust into a Deus Ex Machina appearing out of nowhere to save the galaxy, and they get it. (again, because the writers).

[leaguer of one]

Br3ad wrote...


1. No it's there to make a villan. It's there to show that Templars can be out of control just like blood mages. It's a failed attempt at making a gray plot. Similar to plenty of situations in ME. It's a half handed way at trying to make no right choice.

2. Nothing in game suggests any of your estimations on indoctrination are true. And indoctrination can happen in a few days. I doubt even the lab technitions were around any Reaper tech for less time. 

1. We already know Templars can be out of control and the is with out red lyrium. Added, blood magic nor blood mages are not out of control. Any mage can become out of control. The issue here is of advantage vs hasards to get to an end.

2.Indoctrination can happen in a few days constant  and regular exposer. Added, nothing in the plot state collector tech indoctrinates...And those scientist only worked on collecter tech.
TIM diffenetly had long term exposer to reaper tech.

[BlueMagitek]

Seriously guys, this is a topic about the transformation of red lyrium, do you need to turn it into another templar/mage topic or whatever?

[leaguer of one]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Survival doesn't care for ethics.
As for cerberus, ME2 itself is inconsistent and the writers were clearly running out of ideas for DLC, hence the "Cerberus experiment gone wrong" template which got so overused it became a subject of ridicule.

And no, studying reaper tech ins't stupid. Dangerous - extreemly - but not stupid.
You cannot defeat an enemy you know nothing about. You cannto fight agaisnt indoctrination if you dont' know how it works.

Sheppard and the rest of the team retard seem to forget that and put their trust into a Deus Ex Machina appearing out of nowhere to save the galaxy, and they get it. (again, because the writers).

1. I know Survival doesn't care for ethics. But does not mean you can just blindly xperiment of kids and wipe out colonies to get to an end.

2.I never said it was dumb to study reaper tech. I'm just saying how cerberus did it was with out ethics and risky. That lead to there down fall.

3. The crucible is not a deus ex machina. And the catalyst is more of a deablo ex machina...He makes the situation worse.

[Br3admax]

leaguer of one wrote...

Br3ad wrote...


1. No it's there to make a villan. It's there to show that Templars can be out of control just like blood mages. It's a failed attempt at making a gray plot. Similar to plenty of situations in ME. It's a half handed way at trying to make no right choice.

2. Nothing in game suggests any of your estimations on indoctrination are true. And indoctrination can happen in a few days. I doubt even the lab technitions were around any Reaper tech for less time. 

1. We already know Templars can be out of control and the is with out red lyrium. Added, blood magic nor blood mages are not out of control. Any mage can become out of control. The issue here is of advantage vs hasards to get to an end.

2.Indoctrination can happen in a few days constant  and regular exposer. Added, nothing in the plot state collector tech indoctrinates...And those scientist only worked on collecter tech.
TIM diffenetly had long term exposer to reaper tech.

1. Not true. Meredith is not every Templar, and the ones in Fereldan are nothing of the such. This coming from someone who always plays mage cannonly. 

2. Pure speculation to explain why Indoctrination only works a certain way, when really it simply plot that decides. You do not know everything the sceintist studied or for how long. You're just making implications to somehow show that any of this makes sense, when at its heart, it does not.  

[alex90c]

So I guess this red lyrium is going to be used as a device to spam enemy mobs at us.

Oh look, templars are now generic bad guys rather than the whole "protecting the many from the powers of the few" that they were portrayed as in Origins.

Sigh.

[leaguer of one]

billy the squid wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Red Lyrium is a mind numbingly dumb concept and the writing team needs to move away from ideas that they came up with while they were on a bad acid trip. It's a cack handed way of making a villain to fight, make him buckets of crazy and then crowbar in a "thou must" position. It was the same with Cerberus, they went from a shady covert organisation in ME1 to buckets of crazy galactic spanning conquest because of "indoctrination"

Bravo BioWare, bravo.

1.It's not a dumb idea. It's the same consept as mages turning to blood magic and demons for more power.Yes, blood magic is not inherity evil but the draw of power can lead to it. 

2. Cerberus becoming indoctrinated is something anyone can see coming from a mile from ME1. They were always a high risk, high rewards organization and it bit them in the ass. Only the 2nd normandy rebuild project was not high risk.

If you like saturday morning cartoon villany with all the finesse of a crayon drawing making the entire individual or organisation a grotesque characature, then no it's not a dumb idea. If you were aiming for a comic book villain twirling his moustache and planning world domination from his secret volcano lair then spot on. If you actually wanted to make it a believable, well thought out aspect then it's mind numbingly stupid.




^ This is what an example of a comedic villain is, this is what Cerberus turned into, and what DA2 did.

Please. I'm sorry but you got it wrong . With the  years of studying the workings of reaper tech says nothing suggest TIM would want to control the reapers and use them to as way to advance humanity? Or get indoctrinated trying to do it?

So the nanotech they took from reapers and studied, the husk experiments in ME1, the studing of  a reaper corpes, the vast collecting of reaper tech, and the start of experiments on live subject to see the evolution of indoctionations from before ME3 says TIM is not tring to study and take reaper tech as his own?
Let not for get the years of trying to find a way to gain a stable form of mind control to control the super weapon project cerberus came up with as well.

Please, a blind man can see that TIM is trying to take the reapers and there tech as his own. Heck, He was even the only one in the story to see they were just a bunch of out of control tools.


What your not getting that cerberus had done a mountain of horrible things in the series. And they all cover it out with the excuse of being morally grey. You don't think that is an issue? They crushed so many innocent people to there end and simple cover it up with the statement that they are moraly grey. And you beleived it? Then they do the same thing again in ME3 and suddenly they are saterday morning villians?
Sorry but you need to look at ther history more and stop being so gullible.


With the read templers is more then just bad for bad sake or  power of power sake. This is power to impose order.These are people who are willing go th the extreme to get an advantage in a war they are trying to impose order in. it added a question of how far one would go for victory. It's no different from Logian selling elves for slave to fund his war or him trying to assasinate the arl of red cliff for an advatage.

 Red Lyrium is inheritly a power up. The only reason why the templers use it is becuse it gives them a massive power up. Yes it has dire effects but the question comes up with the point whether the benifits are worth the risk of the faults. With it having that effect it not a bad issue to have being that they are at war and are trying to get as much as an advanatge as possible. The only reason the templars want it is because they are trying to win a war for order. That makes it not stupid to have it in the plot. The fact it's a choice to take it with a clear reason  they take it makes it not stupid to have it there.

Not every templer is the same. In fact the templar are divide with in themselves, it's not templar vs mage but factions of one side fight other factions. I never siad all templar would take red lyrium. It 's a choice not something that controls some one and makes the take it. Some will take it some won't...Like some templars with be pro mage, some will be pro chantry, some with be anti chantry and others with be red templars. No  all templars will be red templars. The fact it;s choice and a question of what some one would do to get an advantage makes it not stupid.

You need to think about much more nad not just to an assumption.

Behold your core fans BioWare, you can crap on a plate and call it ice cream and these people will attempt to justify it. It's like looking at a case of stockholm syndrome.

I think you should come back when you want to have a serious conversation. If you can't see red lyrium is a plot point about advanages then your blind. Also, if you don't like the fact it's there and feel it will ruin the plot, you should know at this point it's too late for them to change it . if you still don't like it you free to not play the game and not whine about it on this borad.

[BlueMagitek]

*gets involved in multiple post discussion*

*tells other person not to whine*

What? This is a forum, and this specifically is a topic about red lyrium. I believe you're allowed to express an opinion.

[leaguer of one]

Br3ad wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Br3ad wrote...


1. No it's there to make a villan. It's there to show that Templars can be out of control just like blood mages. It's a failed attempt at making a gray plot. Similar to plenty of situations in ME. It's a half handed way at trying to make no right choice.

2. Nothing in game suggests any of your estimations on indoctrination are true. And indoctrination can happen in a few days. I doubt even the lab technitions were around any Reaper tech for less time. 

1. We already know Templars can be out of control and the is with out red lyrium. Added, blood magic nor blood mages are not out of control. Any mage can become out of control. The issue here is of advantage vs hasards to get to an end.

2.Indoctrination can happen in a few days constant  and regular exposer. Added, nothing in the plot state collector tech indoctrinates...And those scientist only worked on collecter tech.
TIM diffenetly had long term exposer to reaper tech.

1. Not true. Meredith is not every Templar, and the ones in Fereldan are nothing of the such. This coming from someone who always plays mage cannonly. 

2. Pure speculation to explain why Indoctrination only works a certain way, when really it simply plot that decides. You do not know everything the sceintist studied or for how long. You're just making implications to somehow show that any of this makes sense, when at its heart, it does not.  

1. How did "We already know Templars can be out of control "mean "even templar will be out of control"?

I did not say all of them will be out of control and Meredith is an example of it. Also, Meredith was not the only out of control templar in DA2. Some templare will be out of control, just how most left the chantry. They don't need red lyrium to be out of control.

2. It's not pure spectulation. That's how it was explained how it worked from Virmire in ME1. Long time exposer= indoctrination...Every single time. And TIM is right next to a reaper corpse which was stated for ME2 can indoctrinate.

[leaguer of one]

BlueMagitek wrote...

*gets involved in multiple post discussion*

*tells other person not to whine*

What? This is a forum, and this specifically is a topic about red lyrium. I believe you're allowed to express an opinion.

Sorry, it's a knee jerk reaction I had from billy the squids comment. He want to be antagonistic more then he wants to make a point.