249 réponses à ce sujet

[leaguer of one]

spirosz wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

how complex thing are going to be with the issue the player will face in the story. With the way everything is set up it's far too complex then you making it out to be. I arguing on the point it far too complex for it to be so simple. proves this point.

If you don't understand that then you need to re look and re think on the issue on had that is going to come up in dai.

Why do you keep arguining about those aspects being too complex, when they aren't? 

What.  

I'm saying it's too complex to have enemies just to be enemies. We have too many side with many reasons to fight in this war. It's not mage vs templars. Do you think Vivvian who is pro circle with side with reble mages or Cassadra to agree with rogue templars? They are many factions with in the mage and templar sides and how they are motivated will define the meaning of their actions.  

[TKavatar]

The templars resorting to red lyrium makes sense. The templars have now broken off from the chantry, their normal lyrium supply is gone, they're desperate for a fix so they turn to red lyrium.

[spirosz]

leaguer of one wrote...

motivated will define the meaning of their actions.  

Red Lyrium and just because is their meaning so far, so...? 

[Seboist]

Red Lyrium/Indoctrination is just a license to kill/mook generator and a plot railroader. They were some of the absolute worst parts of DA2 and ME2/3.

[leaguer of one]

spirosz wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

motivated will define the meaning of their actions.  

Red Lyrium and just because is their meaning so far, so...? 

So the fact that re lyrium is a power , they are fighting a war and factions of the templars have limited supply of lyrium which they need has no merrit to why a templar would use red lyrium at all.

[leaguer of one]

Seboist wrote...

Red Lyrium/Indoctrination is just a license to kill/mook generator and a plot railroader. They were some of the absolute worst parts of DA2 and ME2/3.

You do understand that red lyrium is a choice to use and indoctrination is something someone has no choice of being effected by, right?

[billy the squid]

leaguer of one wrote...

billy the squid wrote...


Yes you are, you ignored the issues in DA2 and ME3 with a proverbial handwave of "design" And no the points areen't complex at all, you're petty fogging the issue, and trotting out points which are all derived from the same crap writing and cack handed method used to create a conflict.

Anders blows up the Chantry because "thou must" Orsino goes bat crap crazy and Meredith goes nuts because "thou must" it's crap, lazy writing to crow bar in a decision which needs to be taken and another fight, and covered up with "Red Lyrium". ME3, a once covert organisation, suddenly becomes a galactic power with the ability to fight a conflict why? "Indoctrination" TIM becomes an antagonist "indoctrination"  it's a huge cilche and a poorly derived scribble that Walters trotted out and you can see it in the DLC for ME2

It's not compex at all, it comes down to Red Lyrium creates villains and indoctrination creates villans. That's it. Your point is asinine and simply goes round in circles without making any sense. Red Lyrium and Indoctrination are excuses used by the intellectually barren as reason why stupid, senseless things happen and why characters behave like they lose their minds.

This has nothing to do with ME3 or da2. Those games, how they were done, and how you feel about them does not overide the fact that the situtation in DAI and how complex thing are going to be with the issue the player will face in the story. With the way everything is set up it's far too complex then you making it out to be. I'm not here to argue with your issues with da2 and me3. I arguing on the point it far too complex for it to be so simple. You are not arguing that it's a bad idea when you bring up me3 or da2. You trying to argue that they will mess up what they are doing in dai based on what you feel about those two games. That is bring this descusion off trake. There is no point to bring up your issues with the game here being that it's so bies that it ignores the issue on whether this is a good plot point or not over your issue with how bw wrote in the past.

Red lyrium is nothing like indoctrination. Why? Because using it is a choice. Indoctrination is and has always been shown to happen to the character no matter what the feel about. It's forced on them. The fact that there are so many sides to the templars in this war  and they are not all going to be red templar proves this point.

If you don't understand that then you need to re look and re think on the issue on had that is going to come up in dai.

There is every reason to bring up that issue, because that's were the stupidity was derived from. You can see it now. Red Templars', association with Red Lyrium; brilliant, so they're evil because of "red lyrium" great, they've been given the Meredith treatment. 

It's complex because it is? You're arguing it's too complex because you either clutter it with meanigless crap and charcters, or accept that the writing was dire mess and they've painted themselves into a corner with the concept of "red lyrium" which was dumb from the begining and by the look of the red monsters it doesn't look like it's going to get much better.

I see you have completely disregarded the idea of a contrived plot device used to mask stupid behavour to cover up the need for characters to do mind numbingly dense things and events to happen because "thou must" You need to apply to the writing team, you'd fit right in.

[DKJaigen]

billy the squid wrote...

spirosz wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Red Lyrium and Indoctrination are excuses used by the intellectually barren as a reason why stupid, senseless things happen and why characters behave like they lose their minds.

They can be good excuses though, but it seems everything was falling back on those two and exclusively it seems.  

Indoctrination was present in ME1, but it was used well. That's why I don't bring up ME1 in my criticism, the same with Cerberus, it was there in ME1, but Saren's indoctrination and Cerberus' behaviour wasn't buckets of crazy which it became in ME3. 

Red Lyrium has always been stupid, and it was used to justify all the stupid behaviour, along with "a weakened veil" *Ghostly voice* in DA2.

Iorveth and Vernon Roche have some incredibly hardline racial supremecist and xenophobic views, but neither of them are crazy, nor is Letho a complete lunatic, twirling his moustache and plotting world domination. He's not even the real antagonist, he serves someone else who doesn't even appear in the game.

Edit: best examples of sympathetic characters who can be complete bastards without given the "diabolical villain" treatment.

I have to remind you that their more factions at play in da3 and that the main culprits have introduced red lyrium to the templars in order to gain control of the templar order. that is not stupid writing. even in da1 you see how easily templars are corrupted when they dont get their lyrium fix.

[AresKeith]

leaguer of one wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Red Lyrium/Indoctrination is just a license to kill/mook generator and a plot railroader. They were some of the absolute worst parts of DA2 and ME2/3.

You do understand that red lyrium is a choice to use and indoctrination is something someone has no choice of being effected by, right?

And you missed his point

He's talking about how Bioware uses those as a means to make mooks to kill

[leaguer of one]

Br3ad wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Lol at this conversation. That contradicts itself and completely ad hominems and strawmans everything. And by the way, the phrase is "Point blank" not "Point blink."

I mean why should we even talk anymore. Your flawed reasoning is still flawed and you refuse to face the fact that it makes no sense by trying to beat it with a hammer until it does. And then when the writers make up crappy retcons like "You can shield from it, but only when we say so" you think that it is a proper reasoning. There is not point in continuing a circular conversation with those that are both deaf and blind.

Flawed reasoning.
1. You the one here who is ignoring the fact the templars have shown o be out of control with out red lyrium.  Da2 AND da Asunders prove you wrong in those cases. Templars have lost control and did horrible things many times.

2. Add with ME, you are ignoring clear point in the plot. Sorry, but saying the expliantion of how indoctrination works in ME1  is wrong does not make you look good.

1. That statement was never made. Go back and read again.

2.What the **** does this even mean? That's not even the point of this discusion. Contradictions in the story over and over again is the point. 

1. My for the entire time was that templar were shown to out of control with out red lyrium and you were arguing ageinst it....And now your saying you were saying somrthing else?
2. How does something stated in the foundation of the plot  contradicts the story. Form day 1 it was  reapers and reapers tech= indoctrination over time...Suddenly when it happens it's a contridiction?

1. Really, continuing to talk is doing nothing for you. Go reread if you ctually believe that this statement made any sense.
2. "Forget all that nonsense in ME2 and ME3. ME didn't say it, so yeah just this." Stop talking. You really don't understand anything about Mass Effect lore or making a cohesive argument. 

1.This is what you wrote...

Br3ad wrote...


1. No it's there to make a villan. It's there to show that Templars can be out of control just like blood mages. It's a failed attempt at making a gray plot. Similar to plenty of situations in ME. It's a half handed way at trying to make no right choice.

I said Templars hav been shown to be out of control before red lyrium. The fact that they rebeled from the chantry in DA Asunders proves my point

2.What are you taking about. ME1 said...
reapers and reapers tech= indoctrination over time

Me2  said..
reapers and reapers tech= indoctrination over time
This includes dead reapers as well.

ME3 just did the same thing and add that the origin of indoactrination is from the leviathens.

And if you still don't get it...at 44:30
http://www.youtube.c...XOeDxLZM#t=2666

Modifié par leaguer of one, 28 septembre 2013 - 07:17 .

[billy the squid]

DKJaigen wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

spirosz wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Red Lyrium and Indoctrination are excuses used by the intellectually barren as a reason why stupid, senseless things happen and why characters behave like they lose their minds.

They can be good excuses though, but it seems everything was falling back on those two and exclusively it seems.  

Indoctrination was present in ME1, but it was used well. That's why I don't bring up ME1 in my criticism, the same with Cerberus, it was there in ME1, but Saren's indoctrination and Cerberus' behaviour wasn't buckets of crazy which it became in ME3. 

Red Lyrium has always been stupid, and it was used to justify all the stupid behaviour, along with "a weakened veil" *Ghostly voice* in DA2.

Iorveth and Vernon Roche have some incredibly hardline racial supremecist and xenophobic views, but neither of them are crazy, nor is Letho a complete lunatic, twirling his moustache and plotting world domination. He's not even the real antagonist, he serves someone else who doesn't even appear in the game.

Edit: best examples of sympathetic characters who can be complete bastards without given the "diabolical villain" treatment.

I have to remind you that their more factions at play in da3 and that the main culprits have introduced red lyrium to the templars in order to gain control of the templar order. that is not stupid writing. even in da1 you see how easily templars are corrupted when they dont get their lyrium fix.

And who are these people? Or is it supposition? I'm not following the details of DA3 so this may have escaped me. Wasn't Red Lyrium rare and restricted to the Thaig under Kirkwall, and isn't Lyrium controlled by the dwarves?

Retconns Ho!

[leaguer of one]

AresKeith wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Red Lyrium/Indoctrination is just a license to kill/mook generator and a plot railroader. They were some of the absolute worst parts of DA2 and ME2/3.

You do understand that red lyrium is a choice to use and indoctrination is something someone has no choice of being effected by, right?

And you missed his point

He's talking about how Bioware uses those as a means to make mooks to kill

And you missed 2 pages of my past argument about the fact that it more of an issue of means to an end for the people using it, just like blood magic.

[Br3admax]

leaguer of one wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Lol at this conversation. That contradicts itself and completely ad hominems and strawmans everything. And by the way, the phrase is "Point blank" not "Point blink."

I mean why should we even talk anymore. Your flawed reasoning is still flawed and you refuse to face the fact that it makes no sense by trying to beat it with a hammer until it does. And then when the writers make up crappy retcons like "You can shield from it, but only when we say so" you think that it is a proper reasoning. There is not point in continuing a circular conversation with those that are both deaf and blind.

Flawed reasoning.
1. You the one here who is ignoring the fact the templars have shown o be out of control with out red lyrium.  Da2 AND da Asunders prove you wrong in those cases. Templars have lost control and did horrible things many times.

2. Add with ME, you are ignoring clear point in the plot. Sorry, but saying the expliantion of how indoctrination works in ME1  is wrong does not make you look good.

1. That statement was never made. Go back and read again.

2.What the **** does this even mean? That's not even the point of this discusion. Contradictions in the story over and over again is the point. 

1. My for the entire time was that templar were shown to out of control with out red lyrium and you were arguing ageinst it....And now your saying you were saying somrthing else?
2. How does something stated in the foundation of the plot  contradicts the story. Form day 1 it was  reapers and reapers tech= indoctrination over time...Suddenly when it happens it's a contridiction?

1. Really, continuing to talk is doing nothing for you. Go reread if you ctually believe that this statement made any sense.
2. "Forget all that nonsense in ME2 and ME3. ME didn't say it, so yeah just this." Stop talking. You really don't understand anything about Mass Effect lore or making a cohesive argument. 

1.This is what you wrote...

Br3ad wrote...


1. No it's there to make a villan. It's there to show that Templars can be out of control just like blood mages. It's a failed attempt at making a gray plot. Similar to plenty of situations in ME. It's a half handed way at trying to make no right choice.

I said Templars hav been shown to be out of control before red lyrium. The fact that they rebeled from the chantry in DA Asunders proves my point

2.What are you taking about. ME1 said...
reapers and reapers tech= indoctrination over time

Me2  said..
reapers and reapers tech= indoctrination over time
This includes dead reapers as well.

ME3 just did the same thing and add that the origin of indoactrination is from the leviathens.

And if you still don't get it...at 44:30
http://www.youtube.c...XOeDxLZM#t=2666

I really don't think you get what we are saying. Seriously. Go back and reread everything said to you, because obviously, you still don't know what we have said or any of our points.

[leaguer of one]

billy the squid wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

spirosz wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Red Lyrium and Indoctrination are excuses used by the intellectually barren as a reason why stupid, senseless things happen and why characters behave like they lose their minds.

They can be good excuses though, but it seems everything was falling back on those two and exclusively it seems.  

Indoctrination was present in ME1, but it was used well. That's why I don't bring up ME1 in my criticism, the same with Cerberus, it was there in ME1, but Saren's indoctrination and Cerberus' behaviour wasn't buckets of crazy which it became in ME3. 

Red Lyrium has always been stupid, and it was used to justify all the stupid behaviour, along with "a weakened veil" *Ghostly voice* in DA2.

Iorveth and Vernon Roche have some incredibly hardline racial supremecist and xenophobic views, but neither of them are crazy, nor is Letho a complete lunatic, twirling his moustache and plotting world domination. He's not even the real antagonist, he serves someone else who doesn't even appear in the game.

Edit: best examples of sympathetic characters who can be complete bastards without given the "diabolical villain" treatment.

I have to remind you that their more factions at play in da3 and that the main culprits have introduced red lyrium to the templars in order to gain control of the templar order. that is not stupid writing. even in da1 you see how easily templars are corrupted when they dont get their lyrium fix.

And who are these people? Or is it supposition? I'm not following the details of DA3 so this may have escaped me. Wasn't Red Lyrium rare and restricted to the Thaig under Kirkwall, and isn't Lyrium controlled by the dwarves?

Retconns Ho!

1. Lyrium is not only controled by the dwarves just because. It's like this because of chantry law. It a way to control the templars. I would think rogue templars would ignore chantry law and since templar were the ones enforcing it before and are no longer excet with the few who remains with the chantry, I don't think  the dwarves will chare who they sell it to.

2. It was refound in that Thaig, That does not mean the only place it is at is in that thaig.

3. Also for the 3 years from the end of da2 hawke's story more could be found.

[mupp3tz]

I don't understand how you are so adamant that red lyrium will be a 'complex' issue, when DA2 made it an explanation for a super saiyan boss battle with walking statues. Is it really a surprise that people are apprehensive about or just flat out detest having some mysterious force explain crazy or bad behavior?

Modifié par M U P P 3 T Z, 28 septembre 2013 - 07:32 .

[leaguer of one]

Morocco Mole wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

You do understand that red lyrium is a choice to use and indoctrination is something someone has no choice of being effected by, right?

Its still a cheap plot point to dehumanize and remove any meaningful elements from one side in favor of turning them into monsters.

just like blood magic.

Which was one of the major issues of DA2's plot.

1. In this mage templar war it's not mage vs templars. There many factions and sides to this war. We can't say it dehumanizes anything yet because we have yet to see or here the point of the red templar faction. This is jumping to a concution.

2. Who so you never taked the Mirril have you? Last time I chech there are many out of control mages who were not blood mages.

[Br3admax]

 


/thread

[BlueMagitek]

leaguer of one wrote...

You do understand that red lyrium is a choice to use and indoctrination is something someone has no choice of being effected by, right?

I remember when Varric's brother and Meredith totally knew that Red Lyrium turned people into monsters and addled their minds before using it.

Drink responsibly! 

[leaguer of one]

Br3ad wrote...


I really don't think you get what we are saying. Seriously. Go back and reread everything said to you, because obviously, you still don't know what we have said or any of our points.

My first point restate you quote. If you have not get it yet, templar have been shown to be out of control with out red lyrium. If your saying it will do it any way, you still missing the facts to why the templars use it.
 And My seacond point make it clear with how indoctriation happens. There is no contradictions with it in the plot.Sorry but TIM was indoctriated from before the surgury. He was right next the the dead reaper corpse for over 6 months plus.

[billy the squid]

leaguer of one wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

spirosz wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Red Lyrium and Indoctrination are excuses used by the intellectually barren as a reason why stupid, senseless things happen and why characters behave like they lose their minds.

They can be good excuses though, but it seems everything was falling back on those two and exclusively it seems.  

Indoctrination was present in ME1, but it was used well. That's why I don't bring up ME1 in my criticism, the same with Cerberus, it was there in ME1, but Saren's indoctrination and Cerberus' behaviour wasn't buckets of crazy which it became in ME3. 

Red Lyrium has always been stupid, and it was used to justify all the stupid behaviour, along with "a weakened veil" *Ghostly voice* in DA2.

Iorveth and Vernon Roche have some incredibly hardline racial supremecist and xenophobic views, but neither of them are crazy, nor is Letho a complete lunatic, twirling his moustache and plotting world domination. He's not even the real antagonist, he serves someone else who doesn't even appear in the game.

Edit: best examples of sympathetic characters who can be complete bastards without given the "diabolical villain" treatment.

I have to remind you that their more factions at play in da3 and that the main culprits have introduced red lyrium to the templars in order to gain control of the templar order. that is not stupid writing. even in da1 you see how easily templars are corrupted when they dont get their lyrium fix.

And who are these people? Or is it supposition? I'm not following the details of DA3 so this may have escaped me. Wasn't Red Lyrium rare and restricted to the Thaig under Kirkwall, and isn't Lyrium controlled by the dwarves?

Retconns Ho!

1. Lyrium is not only controled by the dwarves just because. It's like this because of chantry law. It a way to control the templars. I would think rogue templars would ignore chantry law and since templar were the ones enforcing it before and are no longer excet with the few who remains with the chantry, I don't think  the dwarves will chare who they sell it to.

2. It was refound in that Thaig, That does not mean the only place it is at is in that thaig.

3. Also for the 3 years from the end of da2 hawke's story more could be found.

Er, no dwarves control it, because it occurs under ground... where they live, and they mine it, and sell it to the Chantry, the only one who will buy it in bulk.

Yes and it remains underground, so everyone is going to go mining, singing "I ho, I ho it's off to work we go"? It's the same stupidity that became prevalent in ME2 and 3 with everything being "indoctrination" Cerberus soldier behaviour? "indoctrination" just ignore the entire concept that a covert organisation now has enough power to take on half the galaxy. The red Lyrium concept bears all the same hall marks of the flimsy half arsed reasoning used to try and justify why a faction or character exists and behaves in the dense way they do.

Modifié par billy the squid, 28 septembre 2013 - 07:42 .

[leaguer of one]

BlueMagitek wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

You do understand that red lyrium is a choice to use and indoctrination is something someone has no choice of being effected by, right?

I remember when Varric's brother and Meredith totally knew that Red Lyrium turned people into monsters and addled their minds before using it.

Drink responsibly! 

Please, they grabbed it before knowing what it was or what it could do. It does not control some one by just being there, if it were true all the templars under Meredith command would be under it's control and Hawke would of been controled by it from walking in the room with it in the Thaig.

[leaguer of one]

billy the squid wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

spirosz wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Red Lyrium and Indoctrination are excuses used by the intellectually barren as a reason why stupid, senseless things happen and why characters behave like they lose their minds.

They can be good excuses though, but it seems everything was falling back on those two and exclusively it seems.  

Indoctrination was present in ME1, but it was used well. That's why I don't bring up ME1 in my criticism, the same with Cerberus, it was there in ME1, but Saren's indoctrination and Cerberus' behaviour wasn't buckets of crazy which it became in ME3. 

Red Lyrium has always been stupid, and it was used to justify all the stupid behaviour, along with "a weakened veil" *Ghostly voice* in DA2.

Iorveth and Vernon Roche have some incredibly hardline racial supremecist and xenophobic views, but neither of them are crazy, nor is Letho a complete lunatic, twirling his moustache and plotting world domination. He's not even the real antagonist, he serves someone else who doesn't even appear in the game.

Edit: best examples of sympathetic characters who can be complete bastards without given the "diabolical villain" treatment.

I have to remind you that their more factions at play in da3 and that the main culprits have introduced red lyrium to the templars in order to gain control of the templar order. that is not stupid writing. even in da1 you see how easily templars are corrupted when they dont get their lyrium fix.

And who are these people? Or is it supposition? I'm not following the details of DA3 so this may have escaped me. Wasn't Red Lyrium rare and restricted to the Thaig under Kirkwall, and isn't Lyrium controlled by the dwarves?

Retconns Ho!

1. Lyrium is not only controled by the dwarves just because. It's like this because of chantry law. It a way to control the templars. I would think rogue templars would ignore chantry law and since templar were the ones enforcing it before and are no longer excet with the few who remains with the chantry, I don't think  the dwarves will chare who they sell it to.

2. It was refound in that Thaig, That does not mean the only place it is at is in that thaig.

3. Also for the 3 years from the end of da2 hawke's story more could be found.

Er, no dwarves control it, because it occurs under ground... where they live, and they mine it, and sell it to the Chantry, the only one who will buy it in bulk.

Yes and it remains underground, so everyone is going to go mining, singing "I ho, I ho it's off to work we go"? It's the same stupidity that became prevalent in ME2 and 3 with everything being "indoctrination" Cerberus soldier behaviour? "indoctrination" just ignore the entire concept that a covert organisation now has enough power to take on half the galaxy. The red Lyrium concept bears all the same hall marks of the flimsy half arsed reasoning used to try and justify why a faction of character exists and behaver in the dense way they do.

"Er, no dwarves control it, because it occurs under ground... where they live, and they mine it, and sell it to the Chantry, the only one who will buy it in bulk."

So human can go an mine it them selves because.......

Sorry, but you have no point. What is stopping humans form mining it.

It's made clear in the lore...

"Lyrium is used by the Chantry to control the templars: templars are given lyrium to "develop their talents" (thoughAlistair seems to doubt whether it actually has any real effect), which also leaves them addicted and thus within the control of the Chantry, which controls the lyrium trade."

http://dragonage.wik...Use_and_effects

Dwarves don't control it because they are nearest to the lyrium. The control it because the chantry lets them.
The humans can mine it themselves if they wanted to.

[mupp3tz]

leaguer of one wrote...
If you have not get it yet, templar have been shown to be out of control with out red lyrium. If your saying it will do it any way, you still missing the facts to why the templars use it.

So why is it necessary? Why can't the templars just be ****s motivated by personal interests, revenge, fear, etc. and. that's. it. Why do you have to add "manipulated by magicks!" to enemies who are already formidable? It's convenient and gimmicky. You, the PC, must fight them because "Oh~ red lyrium/indoctrination = bad."