249 réponses à ce sujet

[leaguer of one]

M U P P 3 T Z wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
If you have not get it yet, templar have been shown to be out of control with out red lyrium. If your saying it will do it any way, you still missing the facts to why the templars use it.

So why is it necessary? Why can't the templars just be ****s motivated by personal interests, revenge, fear, etc. and. that's. it. Why do you have to add "manipulated by magicks!" to enemies who are already formidable? It's convenient and gimmicky. You, the PC, must fight them because "Oh~ red lyrium/indoctrination = bad."

So far the motivation for the rogue templar is too impose order on the mages  and chantry law as they see fit. There is a letter stating this in Da Asuders stating this. The red templar may have use red lyrium to help them do this. They are also not the only faction on had with the templars ether.

We have not gotten there full motives yet ether so say we are killing them just because they are red templar is an assumption. We are plaing an inquisitor who is also trying to restore order to close the veil as well. Being that order is a means to an end and order to the red templar is an end, it seem we may  butt heads on how and why it need to be done.

[leaguer of one]

Morocco Mole wrote...

2. Who so you never taked the Mirril have you? Last time I chech there are many out of control mages who were not blood mages.

Merril is an idiot.

So what...She was not out of control... Which is my point.

[Lotion Soronarr]

leaguer of one wrote...
'm saying it's too complex to have enemies just to be enemies. We have too many side with many reasons to fight in this war. It's not mage vs templars. Do you think Vivvian who is pro circle with side with reble mages or Cassadra to agree with rogue templars? They are many factions with in the mage and templar sides and how they are motivated will define the meaning of their actions.  

Many factions? When a faction is midelss it's not a faction to consider to begin with.

Having "good templrs" and "bad templars" does not give meaningfull choice. It does not make the situation grey. It just makes it cartoonishly stupid.

So the fact that re lyrium is a power , they are fighting a war and
factions of the templars have limited supply of lyrium which they need
has no merrit to why a templar would use red lyrium at all.

The same Red Lyrium that is so super-rare there is only ONE known source and it is in the unprotected part of the DEEP ROADS where Darkspawn constantly roam?
The same Red Lyrium of which there was only enough for one (exceptionally stupid) sword?

For thousands of years no one heard anything of red lyrium? And now suddenly (and conveniently) sources are sprouting everywhere?
That's just more bad writing.

I said Templars hav been shown to be out of control before red lyrium.
The fact that they rebeled from the chantry in DA Asunders proves my
point

No it doens't. It's a compeltely different kind of "out of control".
Also, the templars "rebellion" is LEGAL.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 28 septembre 2013 - 08:12 .

[leaguer of one]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
'm saying it's too complex to have enemies just to be enemies. We have too many side with many reasons to fight in this war. It's not mage vs templars. Do you think Vivvian who is pro circle with side with reble mages or Cassadra to agree with rogue templars? They are many factions with in the mage and templar sides and how they are motivated will define the meaning of their actions.  

Many factions? When a faction is midelss it's not a faction to consider to begin with.

Having "good templrs" and "bad templars" does not give meaningfull choice. It does not make the situation grey. It just makes it cartoonishly stupid.

So the fact that re lyrium is a power , they are fighting a war and
factions of the templars have limited supply of lyrium which they need
has no merrit to why a templar would use red lyrium at all.

The same Red Lyrium that is so super-rare there is only ONE known source and it is in the unprotected part of the DEEP ROADS where Darkspawn constantly roam?
The same Red Lyrium of which there was only enough for one (exceptionally stupid) sword?

For thousands of years no one heard anything of red lyrium? And now suddenly (and conveniently) sources are sprouting everywhere?
That's just more bad writing.

I said Templars hav been shown to be out of control before red lyrium.
The fact that they rebeled from the chantry in DA Asunders proves my
point

No it doens't. It's a compeltely different kind of "out of control".
Also, the templars "rebellion" is LEGAL.

1."Many factions? When a faction is midelss it's not a faction to consider to begin with.

Having "good templrs" and "bad templars" does not give meaningfull choice. It does not make the situation grey. It just makes it cartoonishly stupid."

You have no idea what you're taking about.  It's not good templars bad templars.  We have pro chantry, anti chantry, pro mages and red templars. There is no indication with which are good or bad.

2."The same Red Lyrium that is so super-rare there is only ONE known source and it is in the unprotected part of the DEEP ROADS where Darkspawn constantly roam?
The same Red Lyrium of which there was only enough for one (exceptionally stupid) sword?

For thousands of years no one heard anything of red lyrium? And now suddenly (and conveniently) sources are sprouting everywhere?
That's just more bad writing."

It was rediscovered in DA2.  That does not means more can't be found or were found. For all we know there may be some in the bone pit. The lore sys it's rare not that it was never found before.

3."No it doens't. It's a compeltely different kind of "out of control".
Also, the templars "rebellion" is LEGAL."

I'm sorry but...What? There is no such thing as a legal rebellion. That is the most outraguse thing I heared...Try again.

[TKavatar]

People are jumping to conclusions without even knowing the story or how it is going to be executed in the first place.

sigh...

[DKJaigen]

billy the squid wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

spirosz wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Red Lyrium and Indoctrination are excuses used by the intellectually barren as a reason why stupid, senseless things happen and why characters behave like they lose their minds.

They can be good excuses though, but it seems everything was falling back on those two and exclusively it seems.  

Indoctrination was present in ME1, but it was used well. That's why I don't bring up ME1 in my criticism, the same with Cerberus, it was there in ME1, but Saren's indoctrination and Cerberus' behaviour wasn't buckets of crazy which it became in ME3. 

Red Lyrium has always been stupid, and it was used to justify all the stupid behaviour, along with "a weakened veil" *Ghostly voice* in DA2.

Iorveth and Vernon Roche have some incredibly hardline racial supremecist and xenophobic views, but neither of them are crazy, nor is Letho a complete lunatic, twirling his moustache and plotting world domination. He's not even the real antagonist, he serves someone else who doesn't even appear in the game.

Edit: best examples of sympathetic characters who can be complete bastards without given the "diabolical villain" treatment.

I have to remind you that their more factions at play in da3 and that the main culprits have introduced red lyrium to the templars in order to gain control of the templar order. that is not stupid writing. even in da1 you see how easily templars are corrupted when they dont get their lyrium fix.

And who are these people? Or is it supposition? I'm not following the details of DA3 so this may have escaped me. Wasn't Red Lyrium rare and restricted to the Thaig under Kirkwall, and isn't Lyrium controlled by the dwarves?

Retconns Ho!

Unknown but you assume that they do not know about red lyrium. thats major oversight. You say bad writing i say the red templars are the logical conclusion. A police officer that is caught using narcottics is booted out of the force. why? because he becomes corruptable. now think for a moment what the templars are.

[LobselVith8]

TKavatar wrote...

People are jumping to conclusions without even knowing the story or how it is going to be executed in the first place.

sigh...

Well, I think it has to do with the Red Templars killing the people of Crestwood (in PAX demo) seems to paint them as generic villains, rather than people who you could try to understand and work with (in the way that not all blood mages are evil, for example).

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
'm saying it's too complex to have enemies just to be enemies. We have too many side with many reasons to fight in this war. It's not mage vs templars. Do you think Vivvian who is pro circle with side with reble mages or Cassadra to agree with rogue templars? They are many factions with in the mage and templar sides and how they are motivated will define the meaning of their actions.  

Many factions? When a faction is midelss it's not a faction to consider to begin with.

Having "good templrs" and "bad templars" does not give meaningfull choice. It does not make the situation grey. It just makes it cartoonishly stupid.

So the fact that re lyrium is a power , they are fighting a war and
factions of the templars have limited supply of lyrium which they need
has no merrit to why a templar would use red lyrium at all.

The same Red Lyrium that is so super-rare there is only ONE known source and it is in the unprotected part of the DEEP ROADS where Darkspawn constantly roam?
The same Red Lyrium of which there was only enough for one (exceptionally stupid) sword?

For thousands of years no one heard anything of red lyrium? And now suddenly (and conveniently) sources are sprouting everywhere?
That's just more bad writing.

I said Templars hav been shown to be out of control before red lyrium.
The fact that they rebeled from the chantry in DA Asunders proves my
point

No it doens't. It's a compeltely different kind of "out of control".
Also, the templars "rebellion" is LEGAL.

You still live in that narrow mindset of mages and templars and never look beyond that. who says that the new enemy doesnt know about red lyrium? The fact is that their are lot powerful beings in DA universe  whose motives are not clear to say the least. But what really bothers you is that not mages have ****ed up the world but the templars.

And the templar rebelion may have been legal ( i highly doubt it howver) its was still an inceedibly risky powerplay of lambert and it failed and backfired to the templars.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


The same Red Lyrium that is so super-rare there is only ONE known source and it is in the unprotected part of the DEEP ROADS where Darkspawn constantly roam?
The same Red Lyrium of which there was only enough for one (exceptionally stupid) sword?

For thousands of years no one heard anything of red lyrium? And now suddenly (and conveniently) sources are sprouting everywhere?
That's just more bad writing.

I wouldn't call it bad writting myself if they give a good reason behind so much red lyrium being discoverd, such as a new thaig in the deep roads that was lost to the history books that happens to have such a diposite. Even in DAO we see the shapers don't have a complete history of their own people, nor do other countries in thedas.

And thousands of years? You know this how? In fact how do you know that the red lyrium idol was the only one there was? When was that explination ever given that this is the only red lyrium that exist in all of thedas and shown concrete evidence that this was the case? I remember in DA2 they were infruiatingly vague about red lyrium to the point it became a deus ex plot device for a meredith fight. If anything, having more of it discovered actually gives potential for some explination and backstory to come about.

A plot twist or a reveal isn't bad writing, bad writing is when the twist makes no sense or comes out of nowhere or contradicts previous infromation.

Red lyrium being more prevelant than previous thought doesn't do this, at least from where I'm standing.

[Lotion Soronarr]

leaguer of one wrote...

You have no idea what you're taking about.  It's not good templars bad templars.  We have pro chantry, anti chantry, pro mages and red templars. There is no indication with which are good or bad.

So the red tempalrs that turin into mindless monsters and kill villagers arne't bad?
You could have fooled me.

I'm sorry, but I see exactly ZEo, zilch, NADA worth or potential in Red Lyrium.

2."The same Red Lyrium that is so super-rare there is only ONE known source and it is in the unprotected part of the DEEP ROADS where Darkspawn constantly roam?
The same Red Lyrium of which there was only enough for one (exceptionally stupid) sword?

For thousands of years no one heard anything of red lyrium? And now suddenly (and conveniently) sources are sprouting everywhere?
That's just more bad writing."

It was rediscovered in DA2.  That does not means more can't be found or were found. For all we know there may be some in the bone pit. The lore sys it's rare not that it was never found before.

1) So in other word,s super convenience for the sake of stupid.

2) THEN WHY NO ONE EVER HEARD OF IT BEFORE?

I'm sorry but...What? There is no such thing as a legal rebellion. That is the most outraguse thing I heared...Try again.

It's not a rebellion.
The Nevarran accords was an agreement for templars/inquisition to work with the Chantry.
However, that doesnt' mean they cannot leave.
It was an agreement for the benefit of both, mutual cooperation.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...

You still live in that narrow mindset of mages and templars and never look beyond that. who says that the new enemy doesnt know about red lyrium? The fact is that their are lot powerful beings in DA universe  whose motives are not clear to say the least. But what really bothers you is that not mages have ****ed up the world but the templars.

What does the "new enemy" have to do with anything?

I hate the concept of red lyrium. I hate it's powers, I hate it's implications. I hate what is done with it.
And yes, I hate that it basicly turned templars into mages.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

2) THEN WHY NO ONE EVER HEARD OF IT BEFORE?

HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT? 

We never hear an explination about red lyrium in the first place. Did we go to the shaperate at some point and ask them? Did they scoure the land of thedas for all the ancient records regarding lyrium found in the deep roads? Did they ever seek knoweledge from the tevinter imperium and call upon their strong ties to the dwarves and long history of magic?

No, they just threw it out there, and off the top of their heads, didn't know anything about it. That's assuming information regarding the thaig they searched and the dwarves who lived there and their beliefs weren't lost to the savages of time and destruction of dwarven cities thansk tot he darkspawn.

[leaguer of one]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

You have no idea what you're taking about.  It's not good templars bad templars.  We have pro chantry, anti chantry, pro mages and red templars. There is no indication with which are good or bad.

So the red tempalrs that turin into mindless monsters and kill villagers arne't bad?
You could have fooled me.

I'm sorry, but I see exactly ZEo, zilch, NADA worth or potential in Red Lyrium.

2."The same Red Lyrium that is so super-rare there is only ONE known source and it is in the unprotected part of the DEEP ROADS where Darkspawn constantly roam?
The same Red Lyrium of which there was only enough for one (exceptionally stupid) sword?

For thousands of years no one heard anything of red lyrium? And now suddenly (and conveniently) sources are sprouting everywhere?
That's just more bad writing."

It was rediscovered in DA2.  That does not means more can't be found or were found. For all we know there may be some in the bone pit. The lore sys it's rare not that it was never found before.

1) So in other word,s super convenience for the sake of stupid.

2) THEN WHY NO ONE EVER HEARD OF IT BEFORE?

I'm sorry but...What? There is no such thing as a legal rebellion. That is the most outraguse thing I heared...Try again.

It's not a rebellion.
The Nevarran accords was an agreement for templars/inquisition to work with the Chantry.
However, that doesnt' mean they cannot leave.
It was an agreement for the benefit of both, mutual cooperation.

1. "It's not a rebellion. "
Yes it is. It a rebellion.

2."However, that doesnt' mean they cannot leave.
It was an agreement for the benefit of both, mutual cooperation."

But it still means they have to obau chantry laws. So them not being with the chantry and being templar is already agenst the law.

3."So the red tempalrs that turin into mindless monsters and kill villagers arne't bad?
You could have fooled me."
 Who said they were mindless monsters. They are antagonist to the inquisitor not darkspawn. And you don't have to be mindless to attack a village.
It's not just good or bad.

4."1) So in other word,s super convenience for the sake of stupid.

2) THEN WHY NO ONE EVER HEARD OF IT BEFORE?"

It's not made that way out of super convenience.
 
And if something is rare then it reason alown that few people know about it.  You think the people in that expidition are experts with rare lyrium?
Added you do know it was found in a thiag.....A thiag has to be built by people.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Dinosaur fossils are super contrived, because they were suppose to be super rare back in the 1800's and suddenly we're finding them all over the place.

Totally bad writing, real life.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 28 septembre 2013 - 10:03 .

[Neon Rising Winter]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

You still live in that narrow mindset of mages and templars and never look beyond that. who says that the new enemy doesnt know about red lyrium? The fact is that their are lot powerful beings in DA universe  whose motives are not clear to say the least. But what really bothers you is that not mages have ****ed up the world but the templars.

What does the "new enemy" have to do with anything?

I hate the concept of red lyrium. I hate it's powers, I hate it's implications. I hate what is done with it.
And yes, I hate that it basicly turned templars into mages.

Given they were already happily gobbing down quantities of the plain, rather strongly correlated with magical phenomena version, that's not so much a turn as a very gentle sway.

[Br3admax]

Lyrium is only used to control Templars. They don't actually need it to before their abilities.

[Br3admax]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Dinosaur fossils are super contrived, because they were suppose to be super rare back in the 1800's and suddenly we're finding them all over the place.

Totally bad writing, real life.

3 years =/= 210 years

[iOnlySignIn]

How much do we know exactly about this Behemoth symptom?

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 28 septembre 2013 - 11:08 .

[leaguer of one]

Br3ad wrote...

Lyrium is only used to control Templars. They don't actually need it to before their abilities.

Wrong. Templars need Lyrium to use their powers.

"It is confirmed that lyrium does have effective benefits for templars, as it builds a resistance to magic in them over time, as well as increasing the effectiveness of their magic abilities, such as being able to shut off a mage's abilities entirely. "
http://dragonage.wik...yrium_addiction

One way or another, no lyrium means no templars.

[Neon Rising Winter]

Br3ad wrote...

Lyrium is only used to control Templars. They don't actually need it to before their abilities.

It does hint that now and then doesn't it. And assuming it were the case, it does leave the question where those abilities come from, and why the Chantry is keen to slip a lyrium leash on them. Either way there's something odd going on with them already.

Modifié par Narrow Margin, 28 septembre 2013 - 11:10 .

[Laughing_Man]

Hmm... I agree that Red-Lyrium shouldn't just transform templars into cartoonish villains.

I think that Red Lyrium is almost exactly like Blood-magic.
It's dangerous, powerfull, and it points out that the temptations of power exist for everyone, templars too. (from the moment the concept of templars rose, it was clear that even "regular" humans could use magic to some capacity with enough study and dedication. So tha't nothing new really.)

[I also agree that idoctrination & Reaper tech should have been studied. Not in the same way cerberus did it, but still.]

And, I would *love* to see resonable, post red-lyrium, templar.
(Just as I would like to see more resonable Blood-Mages)

That said, killing villagers does not have to mean that the "reds" lost their minds.
It could be under the same logic stuff in W40K works:
On one side you have uncomromising religious fervor that demads you KILL THE HERETIC AND DA XENO, and on the other you have a village that may or may not somehow become a hinderance to you in the future because of demons or whatever, so you "EXTERMINATUS" them...

[Laughing_Man]

leaguer of one wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Lyrium is only used to control Templars. They don't actually need it to before their abilities.

Wrong. Templars need Lyrium to use their powers.

"It is confirmed that lyrium does have effective benefits for templars, as it builds a resistance to magic in them over time, as well as increasing the effectiveness of their magic abilities, such as being able to shut off a mage's abilities entirely. "
http://dragonage.wik...yrium_addiction

One way or another, no lyrium means no templars.

It's quite clear from the games that you don't *need* Lyrium to perform the templar "arts".
Lyrium may make them better and stronger, but at a heavy price.

[Br3admax]

leaguer of one wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Lyrium is only used to control Templars. They don't actually need it to before their abilities.

Wrong. Templars need Lyrium to use their powers.

"It is confirmed that lyrium does have effective benefits for templars, as it builds a resistance to magic in them over time, as well as increasing the effectiveness of their magic abilities, such as being able to shut off a mage's abilities entirely. "
http://dragonage.wik...yrium_addiction

One way or another, no lyrium means no templars.

See Alistar, see Warden, see Hawke, see Grey Warden Carver. 

[Br3admax]

Narrow Margin wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Lyrium is only used to control Templars. They don't actually need it to before their abilities.

It does hint that now and then doesn't it. And assuming it were the case, it does leave the question where those abilities come from, and why the Chantry is keen to slip a lyrium leash on them. Either way there's something odd going on with them already.

I want to say spirits, but I just don't know. 

[caradoc2000]

If the so called 'Iron Bull' companion is true, we could get interesting transformations:

Red Lyrium+Iron Bull = Red Bull.