249 réponses à ce sujet

[Laughing_Man]

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

You still live in that narrow mindset of mages and templars and never look beyond that. who says that the new enemy doesnt know about red lyrium? The fact is that their are lot powerful beings in DA universe  whose motives are not clear to say the least. But what really bothers you is that not mages have ****ed up the world but the templars.

What does the "new enemy" have to do with anything?

I hate the concept of red lyrium. I hate it's powers, I hate it's implications. I hate what is done with it.
And yes, I hate that it basicly turned templars into mages.

You hate it because of your bias. But its not bad writing. this could have happend much earlier . templars are slaves to lyrium the one who controls the lyrium controls the templars. While i did not expect this to happen this is nothing more then bring the many flaws of the templar order to its logical conclusion.

Hmm... the whole templar-mage thing is kinda ironic.
The idea was to contain mages from becoming the all powerful monsters without morals that most Tavinter mages became, and at the end, the guardians became very similar to the monsters they sought to prevent,
including in seeking power at any cost, like red-lyrium.

I don't think that this theme in itself is bad-writing even if it makes some people's mouthes all frothy...

That said, complex villains are alot better than "indoctrinated" ones.

[billy the squid]

deuce985 wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Red Lyrium is a mind numbingly dumb concept and the writing team needs to move away from ideas that they came up with while they were on a bad acid trip. It's a cack handed way of making a villain to fight, make him buckets of crazy and then crowbar in a "thou must" position. It was the same with Cerberus, they went from a shady covert organisation in ME1 to buckets of crazy galactic spanning conquest because of "indoctrination"

Bravo BioWare, bravo.

Since you apparently have access to Bioware's writing team and script...mind sharing it with me? I'd love to read it. I mean, you have it all figured out already so I'm assuming you read what we haven't yet.

So Red Lyrium is going to be retconned from the fiasco of DA2? Please, tell me how good BioWare's track record of using plot devices is. I must have mistaken DA2, ME2 and ME3 dense handwaving for a well reasoned story as to why events happen and why people act in certain ways. 

Or are you just going to do the "wait and see, we don't know yet" line like everyone did in DA2, and in ME3 when people were criticising the demo and story before release then. 

Modifié par billy the squid, 29 septembre 2013 - 11:13 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...
You hate it because of your bias. But its not bad writing. this could have happend much earlier . templars are slaves to lyrium the one who controls the lyrium controls the templars. While i did not expect this to happen this is nothing more then bring the many flaws of the templar order to its logical conclusion.

And maybe you love it becaue of your bias?

I say it is bad writing. Period. And there's not a damn thing you can say that will change my mind.

I asked before - what does it add? Nothing. Templar flaws and logical conclusion?
No, this is turning templars into mages and mindless monsters. This is a shoddy attempt to make things grey by making everyone "equal".

[Laughing_Man]

billy the squid wrote...

So Red Lyrium is going to be retconned from the fiasco of DA2? Please, tell me how well BioWare's track record of using plot devices is. I must have mistaken DA2, ME2 and ME3 dense handwaving for a well reasoned story as to why events happen and why people act in certain ways. 

Or are you just going to do the "wait and see, we don't know yet" line like everyone did in DA2, and in ME3 when people were criticising the demo and story before release then. 

If it's acceptable to arbitrarily decide that blood-magic can make people crazy because it's "dark" and "evil",
than there is no reason that it's mineral counterpart will be any different.

After all, as it was pointed out a couple of times, Lyrium use has similar risks to magic use, in other words, Lyrium IS magic.

[Ravensword]

TheRedVipress wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

So Red Lyrium is going to be retconned from the fiasco of DA2? Please, tell me how well BioWare's track record of using plot devices is. I must have mistaken DA2, ME2 and ME3 dense handwaving for a well reasoned story as to why events happen and why people act in certain ways. 

Or are you just going to do the "wait and see, we don't know yet" line like everyone did in DA2, and in ME3 when people were criticising the demo and story before release then. 

If it's acceptable to arbitrarily decide that blood-magic can make people crazy because it's "dark" and "evil",
than there is no reason that it's mineral counterpart will be any different.

After all, as it was pointed out a couple of times, Lyrium use has similar risks to magic use, in other words, Lyrium IS magic.

It's not acceptable; it's poor writing.

[Laughing_Man]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And maybe you love it becaue of your bias?

I say it is bad writing. Period. And there's not a damn thing you can say that will change my mind.

I asked before - what does it add? Nothing. Templar flaws and logical conclusion?
No, this is turning templars into mages and mindless monsters. This is a shoddy attempt to make things grey by making everyone "equal".

Pointing out that you can become the same abomination you are supposed to fight is a "shoddy attempt" and bad writing?
I think that this danger is all too real, as we obviously saw, even before the red-lyrium thing.

In fact, this *is* the point of the story.
The fact that you actually can't completely demonize either side, no matter how hard you try.
You have good people on both sides, you have bad people on both sides, and you also have desperate people that resort to foolish solutions *on both sides*.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Br3ad wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Well, normal lyrium ingestion slowly makes you lose your mind over a lifetime, according to DA:O, so red lyrium doing something similar isn't out of the picture.

I'm surprised it happens so fast though.

Red is the color of evil. Red is also the color of the Sith Empire and the lightsabers of its Dark Jedi. Therefore, Red lyrium is sith lyrium, red lyrium is evil lyrium, and it makes you crazy. Duh. 
 

It's also the color of evil and/or bad conversation choices.

[billy the squid]

TheRedVipress wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

So Red Lyrium is going to be retconned from the fiasco of DA2? Please, tell me how well BioWare's track record of using plot devices is. I must have mistaken DA2, ME2 and ME3 dense handwaving for a well reasoned story as to why events happen and why people act in certain ways. 

Or are you just going to do the "wait and see, we don't know yet" line like everyone did in DA2, and in ME3 when people were criticising the demo and story before release then. 

If it's acceptable to arbitrarily decide that blood-magic can make people crazy because it's "dark" and "evil",
than there is no reason that it's mineral counterpart will be any different.

After all, as it was pointed out a couple of times, Lyrium use has similar risks to magic use, in other words, Lyrium IS magic.

It's not, it bears the same dumb hallmarks as Red Lyrium and Indoctrination.

[Lotion Soronarr]

eluvianix wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
I hate the concept of red lyrium. I hate it's powers, I hate it's implications. I hate what is done with it.
And yes, I hate that it basicly turned templars into mages.

Heaven forbid that they be mages right?:innocent:

Yes. Very much so.
What's the point of the entire dillema if you're gonna undo the dillema in the first place?

[Laughing_Man]

Ravensword wrote...
It's not acceptable; it's poor writing.

Maybe. Or you can think about it like using drugs to enhance your soldiers effectiveness.
It might be effective in the short run, or if you use it only occasionaly for a speciffic purpose.
But in the long run, with heavy use, you are going to sabotage yourself.

In short, it's a tempting way to get alot of power fast.

Modifié par TheRedVipress, 29 septembre 2013 - 11:17 .

[Wulfram]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I asked before - what does it add? Nothing. Templar flaws and logical conclusion?
No, this is turning templars into mages and mindless monsters. This is a shoddy attempt to make things grey by making everyone "equal".

It adds a faction of enemies that can serve as a foe for every character.  Which is necessary in a CRPG setting, and which Thedas is short of between blights.

[Ravensword]

TheRedVipress wrote...

Ravensword wrote...
It's not acceptable; it's poor writing.

Maybe. Or you can think about it like using drugs to enhance your soldiers effectiveness.
It might be effective in the short run, or if you use it only occasionaly for a speciffic purpose.
But in the long run, with heavy use, you are going to sabotage yourself.

In short, it's a tempting way to get alot of power fast.

The way they portrayed apostate mages as foaming-at-the-mouth the mouth psychopaths is poor writing, and so is the Red Templar crap. Hopefully, DA:I isn't all about the mage rebellion and the Red Templars are just some random mook faction.

[Dave of Canada]

Wulfram wrote...

It adds a faction of enemies that can serve as a foe for every character.  Which is necessary in a CRPG setting, and which Thedas is short of between blights.

Isn't that the point of the Fade ripping apart and demons being everywhere?

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 29 septembre 2013 - 11:29 .

[billy the squid]

Wulfram wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I asked before - what does it add? Nothing. Templar flaws and logical conclusion?
No, this is turning templars into mages and mindless monsters. This is a shoddy attempt to make things grey by making everyone "equal".

It adds a faction of enemies that can serve as a foe for every character.  Which is necessary in a CRPG setting, and which Thedas is short of between blights.

And here is the crux of the issue. Disregard any notion of having a cohesive reason to combat a faction and replace it "thou must" because Red Lyrium. 

Thank you for making my point.

You could deal with demons, Templars of various factions such as the real hardline fanatics, Mages of various factions inc their mind controlled slaves, the Orlesians, the Dalish maybe, the Tevinter Imperium, the Qunari possibly? But no, we've gone the indoctrination route to make cannon fodder factions. 

I'm very tired of the need to create a conflict between 2 cardboard cut out factions using magic of some sort to account for dense "evil" behaviour.

Modifié par billy the squid, 29 septembre 2013 - 11:38 .

[Wulfram]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Isn't that the point of the Fade ripping apart and demons being everywhere?

Well, you can't just have demons.  Would get boring, no?  And I would guess that they don't want to make society as totally collapsed as really ubiquitous demons would imply.

I'd guess it'll turn out that the Red Lyrium ties into the whole demon/fade rift thing, anyway.

billy the squid wrote...

And here is the crux of the
issue. Disregard any notion of having a cohesive reason to combat a
faction and replace it "thou must" because Red Lyrium. 

Thank you for making my point.

You
could deal with demons, Templars of various factions such as the real
hardline fanatics, Mages of various factions inc their mind controlled
slaves, the Orlesians, the Dalish maybe, the Tevinter Imperium, the
Qunari possibly? But no, we've gone the indoctrination route to make
cannon fodder factions. 

Without turning enemies de facto crazy or mindless, there's not a cohesive reason that'll justify every character fighting them.  I mean, just look at these forums - there's no hardliner that a bunch of people won't say was totally justified and misunderstood.  Lotion is going to want to join the Templars, Xlizhra is going to want to joing the Dalish and Mages, the Tevinters are de facto crazy evil anyway and people complained a bunch about having to fight the Qunari, though I'd count them as crazy evil too.

There is an alternative, but that alternative is to restrict the player's freedom to play their own character.  Sorry, but your guy opposes the templars, or is a Fereldan patrior who'll fight invaders.  But that's still a trade off.

edit: But I'm not saying these guys are great writing - I'm pretty sceptical, Meredith isn't a great precedent - I'm just saying that they do serve a purpose.

Modifié par Wulfram, 29 septembre 2013 - 11:46 .

[billy the squid]

Wulfram wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

And here is the crux of the
issue. Disregard any notion of having a cohesive reason to combat a
faction and replace it "thou must" because Red Lyrium. 

Thank you for making my point.

You
could deal with demons, Templars of various factions such as the real
hardline fanatics, Mages of various factions inc their mind controlled
slaves, the Orlesians, the Dalish maybe, the Tevinter Imperium, the
Qunari possibly? But no, we've gone the indoctrination route to make
cannon fodder factions. 

Without turning enemies de facto crazy or mindless, there's not a cohesive reason that'll justify every character fighting them.  I mean, just look at these forums - there's no hardliner that a bunch of people won't say was totally justified and misunderstood.  Lotion is going to want to join the Templars, Xlizhra is going to want to joing the Dalish and Mages, the Tevinters are de facto crazy evil anyway and people complained a bunch about having to fight the Qunari, though I'd count them as crazy evil too.

There is an alternative, but that alternative is to restrict the player's freedom to play their own character.

So you have to fight the red templars, even though you could support the templars. Brilliant. This is precisely yht e same problem that ME3 had with Cerberus being turned into buckets of crazy so everyone could fight them. It's a monumentally stupid idea. 

It's not as if you have any shortage of enemies to fight based on what faction you align yourself with is it. Heaven forbid that placing yourself in one camp will affect the outlook of the others. Shocking concept I know, but one of the major failing in every pieve of writing that BioWare has produced. If you don't have the crazy evil faction around, the plot seems incapable of moving on without it. That's railroading.

[Wulfram]

billy the squid wrote...

So you have to fight the red templars, even though you could support the templars. Brilliant. This is precisely yht e same problem that ME3 had with Cerberus being turned into buckets of crazy so everyone could fight them. It's a monumentally stupid idea. 

It's not as if you have any shortage of enemies to fight based on what faction you align yourself with is it. Heaven forbid that placing yourself in one camp will affect the outlook of the others. Shocking concept I know, but one of the major failing in every pieve of writing that BioWare has produced. If you don't have the crazy evil faction around, the plot seems incapable of moving on without it. That's railroading.

So, what's your alternative?  Write basically two seperate games for Mage supporters and Templar supporters?  Not to mention the Dalish supporters and Chantry supporters and everyone else?

[Lotion Soronarr]

TheRedVipress wrote...
Pointing out that you can become the same abomination you are supposed to fight is a "shoddy attempt" and bad writing?
I think that this danger is all too real, as we obviously saw, even before the red-lyrium thing.

Yes. The method is lazy nad stupid and it has no place in the larger narrative, since hte mage-mundane dillema is a comepltely different one that goes beyond "monster"/"guardian" (not that the mages ever were monsters, but it's you who used that word)

In fact, this *is* the point of the story.
The fact that you actually can't completely demonize either side, no matter how hard you try.
You have good people on both sides, you have bad people on both sides, and you also have desperate people that resort to foolish solutions *on both sides*.

Nope. Wrong way to do it. Making them equal in specific is not how you do it. There was no need for Red Lyrium at all to make templars go overboard.
They already did in DA2. Behavior, with credible reasons and consequnces >>>> magical item that makes you crazy and CONVENINETLY makes you simialr to an abomination.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Wulfram wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I asked before - what does it add? Nothing. Templar flaws and logical conclusion?
No, this is turning templars into mages and mindless monsters. This is a shoddy attempt to make things grey by making everyone "equal".

It adds a faction of enemies that can serve as a foe for every character.  Which is necessary in a CRPG setting, and which Thedas is short of between blights.

And all the demons pouring from the veil tears and undead and bandits and stuff?
What do you call them?

No, not necessary.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Wulfram wrote...

So, what's your alternative?  Write basically two seperate games for Mage supporters and Templar supporters?  Not to mention the Dalish supporters and Chantry supporters and everyone else?

YES.
Other games have done it.

Since with one faction, and you may end up fighting others.
Take a look at Witcher II for example.

[Laughing_Man]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

So, what's your alternative?  Write basically two seperate games for Mage supporters and Templar supporters?  Not to mention the Dalish supporters and Chantry supporters and everyone else?

YES.
Other games have done it.

Since with one faction, and you may end up fighting others.
Take a look at Witcher II for example.

It would have been nice I guess. Problem is, DA has too many variables.
With limited resources, you have to choose what your'e going put in the game.
Personally, I wouldn't mind generic mobs that fight everyone (be they red templars or blood-mages), if it means we'll see good things in other areas.

At the end of the day you will have the "sane" factions to deal with too, and you might actually need to fight some of them depending on your choices. (rejoice! you may get to kill mages after all!)

Modifié par TheRedVipress, 29 septembre 2013 - 12:23 .

[Laughing_Man]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

TheRedVipress wrote...
Pointing out that you can become the same abomination you are supposed to fight is a "shoddy attempt" and bad writing?
I think that this danger is all too real, as we obviously saw, even before the red-lyrium thing.

Yes. The method is lazy nad stupid and it has no place in the larger narrative, since hte mage-mundane dillema is a comepltely different one that goes beyond "monster"/"guardian" (not that the mages ever were monsters, but it's you who used that word)

In fact, this *is* the point of the story.
The fact that you actually can't completely demonize either side, no matter how hard you try.
You have good people on both sides, you have bad people on both sides, and you also have desperate people that resort to foolish solutions *on both sides*.

Nope. Wrong way to do it. Making them equal in specific is not how you do it. There was no need for Red Lyrium at all to make templars go overboard.
They already did in DA2. Behavior, with credible reasons and consequnces >>>> magical item that makes you crazy and CONVENINETLY makes you simialr to an abomination.

Consider this, both mages and templars live in the same world, with the same resources.
A mage decides that he needs more power fast, if it's to defend himself or because he is EVIL, he uses blood-magic demons etc.
Some are able to resist demons, some don't.

A templar could face more or less the same dillema.
Doesn't matter if he is an evil sadist who enjoys abusing his power and authority, or if he's an honest man that seeks to protect others from abominations.
He learns about red-lyrium, he assumes that until you overuse it you are safe from "overload".
He doesn't know about the connections to demons, or thinks that his will is strong enough to resist.
So he uses it.

I think that this scenario is pefectly reasonable.

It might not be the way you want templars to be portrayed, but it fitts with the rest of DA's lore.

Modifié par TheRedVipress, 29 septembre 2013 - 12:36 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Oh, please... Red Lyrium causes instanity jsut by being near it. There is no "overload" treshold.

And no, I don't the scenario is very reasonable. I don't think it makes a good plot twist.

[Wulfram]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And all the demons pouring from the veil tears and undead and bandits and stuff?
What do you call them?

No, not necessary.

Bandits are extremely boring enemies, only viable as low level filler, Thedas doesn't have much in the way of interesting undead and you can't support a game just on demons..

And anyway, how's a game with loads of demons better than a game with a load of demons and a load of Red Templars?

[leaguer of one]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

TheRedVipress wrote...
Pointing out that you can become the same abomination you are supposed to fight is a "shoddy attempt" and bad writing?
I think that this danger is all too real, as we obviously saw, even before the red-lyrium thing.

Yes. The method is lazy nad stupid and it has no place in the larger narrative, since hte mage-mundane dillema is a comepltely different one that goes beyond "monster"/"guardian" (not that the mages ever were monsters, but it's you who used that word)

In fact, this *is* the point of the story.
The fact that you actually can't completely demonize either side, no matter how hard you try.
You have good people on both sides, you have bad people on both sides, and you also have desperate people that resort to foolish solutions *on both sides*.

Nope. Wrong way to do it. Making them equal in specific is not how you do it. There was no need for Red Lyrium at all to make templars go overboard.
They already did in DA2. Behavior, with credible reasons and consequnces >>>> magical item that makes you crazy and CONVENINETLY makes you simialr to an abomination.

Not this again.. Look red Lyrium is a power up with aditional negative effects. It gives the templars power up but has a chance of driving them mad. This is a question of what one would do to gain power. It easy to understand why someone in a war would take red lyrium just like someone would learn blood magic.
Red lyrium is not over borad.