267 réponses à ce sujet

[cjones91]

BlueMagitek wrote...

To solve a problem they helped create.

Says who?The only group who vilifies all mages as the creators of darkspawn is the Chantry and they are'nt objective at all.

[Beerfish]

Nohvarr wrote...

Mages have a role to play in society, just like the farmer who ensures they have food, or the weaver who provides clothes for them to wear, the blacksmith who provides weapons to the army etc. However, it's when they step beyond their role and demand more that I take a dim view of their actions. I have no love of the Chantry but neither will I just hand mages total freedom without some way to check them if they get out of hand.

As long as a mage use their power to serve what is best in them and not what is base we will get along. Otherwise I'll put them to the flame myself.

The problem is this.  Take the nicest best intentioned mage, one who wishes to use their skills to help but not harm, one who has no ambition but to help.  That mage is still a grave danger if they are not of strong enough character to resist possession.  This is the major reason why mages are closely controlled.  The bad mages are going to be taken to task just like any other bad person that has no magical skill.  The fact that an innocent like Connor creates as much destruction as he does is reinforces the templar/chantry postion of strict control.  From their piont of view you can easily point to the Redcliffe disaster as a reason why mages at a young age must go to a circle.

I've said it before, like a lot of high level conflicts in a world with two opposing stake hodlers (mages and chantry/templars) the ones that in the end really effect a change are the vast majority in the land.  The common man.  If the mages are ever going to effect long term change they have to appeal to the populace and gie them a real reason to support some of their goals.  Just rebelling against their controller will long term never get them anywhere.

[Nohvarr]

Agree, which is why Anders solution infuriated me, because it wasn't a solution at all. He basically set fire to the house in order to force a change he hoped would be beneficial to Mages at large. In all honesty the only reason I would not kill him is because I want him to see what he's set in motion. Anders had just enough morality to know what he was doing was wrong, and enough intelligence to realize how bad what he set in motion would be. Then he tries to escape seeing the results by getting himself killed.

I am not so merciful. I have every intention of using the Dragon Age Keep to make a world where Anders lives, is forced to fight against the mages at the end of DA 2 and is hopefully still alive in Inquisition to see the horror he has helped bring to the land

[dragonflight288]

Nohvarr wrote...

Agree, which is why Anders solution infuriated me, because it wasn't a solution at all. He basically set fire to the house in order to force a change he hoped would be beneficial to Mages at large. In all honesty the only reason I would not kill him is because I want him to see what he's set in motion. Anders had just enough morality to know what he was doing was wrong, and enough intelligence to realize how bad what he set in motion would be. Then he tries to escape seeing the results by getting himself killed.

I am not so merciful. I have every intention of using the Dragon Age Keep to make a world where Anders lives, is forced to fight against the mages at the end of DA 2 and is hopefully still alive in Inquisition to see the horror he has helped bring to the land

Technically, he didn't. It was the events of Asunder, and Lambert started the violence, while Fiona tried pushing full-steam ahead to liberate the circle and pissing off templars at the same time.

[Swoopdogg]

I'm going to take all the demons, mages, darkspawn... and put them somewhere else!

[dragonflight288]

Swoopdogg wrote...


I'm going to take all the demons, mages, darkspawn... and put them somewhere else!

How about....in darkspace and call them Reapers?

[Beerfish]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Nohvarr wrote...

Agree, which is why Anders solution infuriated me, because it wasn't a solution at all. He basically set fire to the house in order to force a change he hoped would be beneficial to Mages at large. In all honesty the only reason I would not kill him is because I want him to see what he's set in motion. Anders had just enough morality to know what he was doing was wrong, and enough intelligence to realize how bad what he set in motion would be. Then he tries to escape seeing the results by getting himself killed.

I am not so merciful. I have every intention of using the Dragon Age Keep to make a world where Anders lives, is forced to fight against the mages at the end of DA 2 and is hopefully still alive in Inquisition to see the horror he has helped bring to the land

Technically, he didn't. It was the events of Asunder, and Lambert started the violence, while Fiona tried pushing full-steam ahead to liberate the circle and pissing off templars at the same time.

Lambert was totally justified in his actions if you do not put your mages glasses on.  Cole was a murderous demon who was protected.  Main components of that circle openly flaunted the rules.  A double crossing templar helped a mage destory phylactries, a mage experimenting in the reverasl of tranquklilty cuased a whole keep to be destroyed by demons.

Lambert and the red haired mage who were the biggest 'trouble makers' in the story were the only ones that actually stayed true to the ideals they had through the book.  The rest of characters were all selfish, wishy washy and traiterous, flip flopping from one moment to the next when it suited their own personal well being.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Beerfish wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Nohvarr wrote...

Agree, which is why Anders solution infuriated me, because it wasn't a solution at all. He basically set fire to the house in order to force a change he hoped would be beneficial to Mages at large. In all honesty the only reason I would not kill him is because I want him to see what he's set in motion. Anders had just enough morality to know what he was doing was wrong, and enough intelligence to realize how bad what he set in motion would be. Then he tries to escape seeing the results by getting himself killed.

I am not so merciful. I have every intention of using the Dragon Age Keep to make a world where Anders lives, is forced to fight against the mages at the end of DA 2 and is hopefully still alive in Inquisition to see the horror he has helped bring to the land

Technically, he didn't. It was the events of Asunder, and Lambert started the violence, while Fiona tried pushing full-steam ahead to liberate the circle and pissing off templars at the same time.

Lambert was totally justified in his actions if you do not put your mages glasses on.  Cole was a murderous demon who was protected.  Main components of that circle openly flaunted the rules.  A double crossing templar helped a mage destory phylactries, a mage experimenting in the reverasl of tranquklilty cuased a whole keep to be destroyed by demons.

Lambert and the red haired mage who were the biggest 'trouble makers' in the story were the only ones that actually stayed true to the ideals they had through the book.  The rest of characters were all selfish, wishy washy and traiterous, flip flopping from one moment to the next when it suited their own personal well being.

Mage glasses, Templar glasses, I'm just glad my visions good enough to not need eyewear.

[dragonflight288]

Beerfish wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Nohvarr wrote...

Agree, which is why Anders solution infuriated me, because it wasn't a solution at all. He basically set fire to the house in order to force a change he hoped would be beneficial to Mages at large. In all honesty the only reason I would not kill him is because I want him to see what he's set in motion. Anders had just enough morality to know what he was doing was wrong, and enough intelligence to realize how bad what he set in motion would be. Then he tries to escape seeing the results by getting himself killed.

I am not so merciful. I have every intention of using the Dragon Age Keep to make a world where Anders lives, is forced to fight against the mages at the end of DA 2 and is hopefully still alive in Inquisition to see the horror he has helped bring to the land

Technically, he didn't. It was the events of Asunder, and Lambert started the violence, while Fiona tried pushing full-steam ahead to liberate the circle and pissing off templars at the same time.

Lambert was totally justified in his actions if you do not put your mages glasses on.  Cole was a murderous demon who was protected.  Main components of that circle openly flaunted the rules.  A double crossing templar helped a mage destory phylactries, a mage experimenting in the reverasl of tranquklilty cuased a whole keep to be destroyed by demons.

Lambert and the red haired mage who were the biggest 'trouble makers' in the story were the only ones that actually stayed true to the ideals they had through the book.  The rest of characters were all selfish, wishy washy and traiterous, flip flopping from one moment to the next when it suited their own personal well being.

Without the mage glasses, as you call them, I'll look at the events from a strictly legal point of view.

Legally, seekers are supposed to oversee templars.

Legally, the enchanters are allowed to convene at the College.

The Divine authorized the Enchanters to meet and investigate Rhys themsemselves.

Fiona, as Grand Enchanter, is the chair. As the Chair, she is well within her rights to put any agenda on the table, which would then be voted on.

Lambert came in, told them the meeting was going to break up, he'd take over Rhys' investigation, and openly stated that the Divine no longer had any authority. And then he ordered an attack, before a single vote had been made.

Whether or not you agree with the mages, the law was on their side. Lambert was in the wrong.

[Neon Rising Winter]

Beerfish wrote...
Lambert was totally justified in his actions if you do not put your mages glasses on.  Cole was a murderous demon who was protected.  Main components of that circle openly flaunted the rules.  A double crossing templar helped a mage destory phylactries, a mage experimenting in the reverasl of tranquklilty cuased a whole keep to be destroyed by demons.

Lambert and the red haired mage who were the biggest 'trouble makers' in the story were the only ones that actually stayed true to the ideals they had through the book.  The rest of characters were all selfish, wishy washy and traiterous, flip flopping from one moment to the next when it suited their own personal well being.

An argument that one should not invest significant authority in a person too inflexible to relinquish their principles when it might be prudent to do so? Surely he's there to achieve tangible results, not soothe his own conscience by maintaining his ideals. And I don't believe become ground zero for a rebellion was a suggested goal in his last annual appraisal!

[Cainhurst Crow]

The fact he went behind the divine's back and ordered the "double crossing templar" as you call her to assassinate the research group looking into the cure for tranquility if they turned up any results, which she refused to carry out, speaks volumes about his character.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 30 septembre 2013 - 09:19 .

[cjones91]

Beerfish wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Nohvarr wrote...

Agree, which is why Anders solution infuriated me, because it wasn't a solution at all. He basically set fire to the house in order to force a change he hoped would be beneficial to Mages at large. In all honesty the only reason I would not kill him is because I want him to see what he's set in motion. Anders had just enough morality to know what he was doing was wrong, and enough intelligence to realize how bad what he set in motion would be. Then he tries to escape seeing the results by getting himself killed.

I am not so merciful. I have every intention of using the Dragon Age Keep to make a world where Anders lives, is forced to fight against the mages at the end of DA 2 and is hopefully still alive in Inquisition to see the horror he has helped bring to the land

Technically, he didn't. It was the events of Asunder, and Lambert started the violence, while Fiona tried pushing full-steam ahead to liberate the circle and pissing off templars at the same time.

Lambert was totally justified in his actions if you do not put your mages glasses on.  Cole was a murderous demon who was protected.  Main components of that circle openly flaunted the rules.  A double crossing templar helped a mage destory phylactries, a mage experimenting in the reverasl of tranquklilty cuased a whole keep to be destroyed by demons.

Lambert and the red haired mage who were the biggest 'trouble makers' in the story were the only ones that actually stayed true to the ideals they had through the book.  The rest of characters were all selfish, wishy washy and traiterous, flip flopping from one moment to the next when it suited their own personal well being.

So what's your opinion on neutral characters like Varric who don't really support or hate either side?

[cjones91]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

The fact he went behind the divine's back and ordered the "double crossing templar" as you call her to assassinate the research group looking into the cure for tranquility if they turned up any results, which she refused to carry out, speaks volumes about his character.

Yeah,he's exactly the kind of person you don't want as a Templar.People who think they can do whatever they want believing themselves to be above any authority are the people who should'nt be put in charge with safeguarding mages.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Nohvarr wrote...

Agree, which is why Anders solution infuriated me, because it wasn't a solution at all. He basically set fire to the house in order to force a change he hoped would be beneficial to Mages at large. In all honesty the only reason I would not kill him is because I want him to see what he's set in motion. Anders had just enough morality to know what he was doing was wrong, and enough intelligence to realize how bad what he set in motion would be. Then he tries to escape seeing the results by getting himself killed.

I am not so merciful. I have every intention of using the Dragon Age Keep to make a world where Anders lives, is forced to fight against the mages at the end of DA 2 and is hopefully still alive in Inquisition to see the horror he has helped bring to the land

I think getting him to fight against mages in the game itself is only possible if he's remorseful enough to be suicidal. He says he "can't live past this" if Hawke gets him to side with the templars.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 01 octobre 2013 - 02:20 .

[Master Warder Z_]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

The fact he went behind the divine's back and ordered the "double crossing templar" as you call her to assassinate the research group looking into the cure for tranquility if they turned up any results, which she refused to carry out, speaks volumes about his character.

That he held to the conviction and ideals of the Seekers and Templars even above the authority of an obviously unfitt divine?

I hate to say it but he isn't alone in his view of Mages, The Chantry as a whole were getting pretty fed up with Justina and i cannot truely blame them considering what occured within Kirkwall. The Divine ultimately can play Pro Mage on the side if she wants to but SHE cannot suddenly abandon the duty that has bound the Templars and Chantry together for more then a Thousand years on a whim.

Lambert had the conviction to do what was needed.

He held true to the belief that mages despite their best intentions are cursed with a plague in their blood and must be contained and monitored. 

He was a good and compelling character and somewhat of a EBA so i am hoping the world of thedas turns out to be blowing smoke and he pops up as a Templar commander in DAI.

:/ it would be a shame if he went the way of TIM and was either cast aside or so throughly rewritten and abused the character was ruined.

[Master Warder Z_]

cjones91 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

The fact he went behind the divine's back and ordered the "double crossing templar" as you call her to assassinate the research group looking into the cure for tranquility if they turned up any results, which she refused to carry out, speaks volumes about his character.

Yeah,he's exactly the kind of person you don't want as a Templar.People who think they can do whatever they want believing themselves to be above any authority are the people who should'nt be put in charge with safeguarding mages.

Except that He obeyed Justina to a T until she turned her back on her sacred duty and oath to the chantry and Templars.

He was completely justified in annulling the accord by then.

[dragonflight288]

Except that He obeyed Justina to a T until she turned her back on her sacred duty and oath to the chantry and Templars.

He was completely justified in annulling the accord by then.

At what point did Justine have a sacred duty to templars and seekers? When did the Chantry EVER have that duty? The templars existed before the Chantry did, and they were called the Inquisition at the time.

Templars and Seekers both have a sacred duty to protect mages from the world just as much as they are to protect the world from mages. When was the last time, since Thrask and Evangeline, a templar ever protected a mage from injustice?

What Lambert did was simply unjustified. Trying to defend his actions ultimately is trying defend mass slaughter of a legal council of mages, and almost all of them are innocent of any crimes.

[Master Warder Z_]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Except that He obeyed Justina to a T until she turned her back on her sacred duty and oath to the chantry and Templars.

He was completely justified in annulling the accord by then.

At what point did Justine have a sacred duty to templars and seekers? When did the Chantry EVER have that duty? The templars existed before the Chantry did, and they were called the Inquisition at the time.

Templars and Seekers both have a sacred duty to protect mages from the world just as much as they are to protect the world from mages. When was the last time, since Thrask and Evangeline, a templar ever protected a mage from injustice?

What Lambert did was simply unjustified. Trying to defend his actions ultimately is trying defend mass slaughter of a legal council of mages, and almost all of them are innocent of any crimes.

They have a sacred duty to safe guard the mages, to ensure the protection of the general population from the threat of magic and the resurgence of the imperium. To allow a conclave to veer off course, to allow it to speak freely of SECCESSION in a time of upheaval, of revolution and uprising is simply something that could not be allowed.

To much chaos had been allowed to be sown already by that nut anders and then you have the elf pouring gasoline on the embers in the conclave at cumberland that saw them ENDED. And low and beyond when she tries it again the Templars react. The Divine aided in that turning her back on a sacred trust, She threw in her lot with her misguided compassion and let the world burn as a result.

And i agree the Templars must safeguard the mages from both the world and themselves but that is impossible when you have something like occurs within White Spire.  Tensions were to high and with the mages killing the former tranquil and planting the blame at the feet of the Templars the course was set.

Defending Lambert is defending the side that was defending the general population from a Mage Population too spoiled and too childish to realize that base ambition and greed would destroy the fragile balance that kept the world stable relatively for a thousand years.