Steelcan wrote...
Honestly I don't see the point to blowing up Chantries.
Its a powerful message I suppose, but blowing up Templars would be a little more practical...
Modifié par Steelcan, 28 septembre 2013 - 08:01 .
Modifié par hhh89, 28 septembre 2013 - 08:00 .
The Mad Hanar wrote...
Steelcan wrote...
Honestly I don't see the point to blowing up Chantries.
Its a powerful message I suppose, but blowing up Templars would be a little more practical...
This, so much this. Though both are acts of terrorism that will never accompish the mage's goals of having people feel sympathetic for them, if that is their goal.
Modifié par Steelcan, 28 septembre 2013 - 08:02 .
Guest_The Mad Hanar_*
Steelcan wrote...
The Mad Hanar wrote...
Steelcan wrote...
Honestly I don't see the point to blowing up Chantries.
Its a powerful message I suppose, but blowing up Templars would be a little more practical...
This, so much this. Though both are acts of terrorism that will never accompish the mage's goals of having people feel sympathetic for them, if that is their goal.
Only because the Chantry lost its teeth. The Templars were their weapon against mages. The current Divine is too lenient for their tastes so they are prosecuting the war on their own. (as I understand it, I'm new
to DA)
If the Divine comes out against the templars openly they'd lose a lot of support regardless of the mages killing templars.
Br3ad wrote...
Anyway, you guys have some very strange definitions of the word slave. I don't get you at all. And blowing up any building is not the way to show that the other side is bad. If anything, you just show that you are worse.
MisterJB wrote...
The fate of the Mage Rebellion.
It's nothing of the sort. That's just propaganda, and my Mage Hawke never said anything of the sort. I don't blindly pick upper right in DA][ anymore than I do in Mass Effect.LobselVith8 wrote...
Br3ad wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
I think some players see the Chantry of Andraste as an institution of oppression and slavery, given the plight of the elves and the subjugation of the mages. It's why some people have strong opinions about what Anders did, given what the Andrastian Chantry has done in the past, and what it does in present day Thedas. Of course, not everyone has the same views about the issue.
I was joking.
The internet makes it hard to tell sometimes.Br3ad wrote...
Anyway, you guys have some very strange definitions of the word slave.
Apparently, so do in-game characters like Aldenon the Wise, Anders, and pro-mage Hawke, as they all condemn the Chantry controlled Circles as slavery. The moderate First Enchanter Irving also uses dialogue that suggests that he sees it the same way when he profusely thanks the Hero of Ferelden for freeing the local Circle of Magi from it's shackles if the protagonist asks the ruler of Ferelden to emancipate the Circle of Ferelden from the Chantry and the templars. Not to mention the authors who talk about mages leaving the Chantry controlled Circles because they didn't want to remain servants of the Chantry.
No, terroist never see themselves as terroists. They see themselves as symbols of justice, freedom, and change. But really, they are causing more harm than good. Blowing up a religious institution in the name of mage freedom was by far the dumbest act one could do to show that mages should be sympathized with. "I'll show you why mages are feared," indeed.
Br3ad wrote...
I don't get you at all. And blowing up any building is not the way to show that the other side is bad. If anything, you just show that you are worse.
I don't think they are trying to show that the other side is bad. Anders wanted a war that would lead the mages to have autonomy from the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars; that's why he killed Grand Cleric Elthina. Some people want to take down the Chantry for a plethora of reasons, mostly having to do with either the mages or the elves. The Chantry of Andraste engages in behavior that some posters condemn as horrific, monstrous, and even evil, so killing members of the Andrastian Chantry or the Templar Order isn't going to be seen in the same light by everyone.
The Mad Hanar wrote...
Steelcan wrote...
Honestly I don't see the point to blowing up Chantries.
Its a powerful message I suppose, but blowing up Templars would be a little more practical...
This, so much this. Though both are acts of terrorism that will never accompish the mage's goals of having people feel sympathetic for them, if that is their goal.
Becuase they aren't "people" like everyone else.Lord Raijin wrote...
When it comes to war nothing is an act of terrorism. Both teams blow each other buildings up all the time.
The mages primary goals is to fight for their own freedom. To end the imprisonment of the Chantry by removing their manacles from their wrists and ankles; to want to be treated as humans with the same equal rights as any other non-mages. To be allowed to raise a family without the Chantry having to rip their child away from them to be sent to the Chantry.
How can people not feel sympathetic for them, and knowing their cause?
Lord Raijin wrote...
When it comes to war nothing is an act of terrorism. Both teams blow each other buildings up all the time.
The mages primary goals is to fight for their own freedom. To end the imprisonment of the Chantry by removing their manacles from their wrists and ankles; to want to be treated as humans with the same equal rights as any other non-mages. To be allowed to raise a family without the Chantry having to rip their child away from them to be sent to the Chantry.
How can people not feel sympathetic for them, and knowing their cause?
Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Br3ad wrote...
Anyway, you guys have some very strange definitions of the word slave. I don't get you at all. And blowing up any building is not the way to show that the other side is bad. If anything, you just show that you are worse.
But don't you understand Br3ad?
If your goal is freedom for mages or restoration of Dales, then EVERYTHING and ANYTHING is fully justified and morally right.
Lotion Soronnar wrote...
But if your goal is something silly like saving regular people or the world, then everything you do is wrong - and doubly so if any mage or elf comes to any harm.
Meredith also can't tell the difference between a blood mage and her own supporters. She's a gorram lunatic and I gladly killed her.Necanor wrote...
Lord Raijin wrote...
When it comes to war nothing is an act of terrorism. Both teams blow each other buildings up all the time.
The mages primary goals is to fight for their own freedom. To end the imprisonment of the Chantry by removing their manacles from their wrists and ankles; to want to be treated as humans with the same equal rights as any other non-mages. To be allowed to raise a family without the Chantry having to rip their child away from them to be sent to the Chantry.
How can people not feel sympathetic for them, and knowing their cause?
Do you know Meredith's backgound story? As much as I dislike her, I somewhat understand her hatred for mages. I don't hate mages, they have a right to live like anyone else, but they are at any time a potential major threat to themselves and their surrounding. Either that or they become hungry for power and kill or enslave non-mages.
Steelcan wrote...
Meredith also can't tell the difference between a blood mage and her own supporters. She's a gorram lunatic and I gladly killed her.Necanor wrote...
Do you know Meredith's backgound story? As much as I dislike her, I somewhat understand her hatred for mages. I don't hate mages, they have a right to live like anyone else, but they are at any time a potential major threat to themselves and their surrounding. Either that or they become hungry for power and kill or enslave non-mages.
Necanor wrote...
MisterJB wrote...
The fate of the Mage Rebellion.
Br3ad wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
Apparently, so do in-game characters like Aldenon the Wise, Anders, and pro-mage Hawke, as they all condemn the Chantry controlled Circles as slavery. The moderate First Enchanter Irving also uses dialogue that suggests that he sees it the same way when he profusely thanks the Hero of Ferelden for freeing the local Circle of Magi from it's shackles if the protagonist asks the ruler of Ferelden to emancipate the Circle of Ferelden from the Chantry and the templars. Not to mention the authors who talk about mages leaving the Chantry controlled Circles because they didn't want to remain servants of the Chantry.
It's nothing of the sort. That's just propaganda, and my Mage Hawke never said anything of the sort. I don't blindly pick upper right in DA][ anymore than I do in Mass Effect.
Br3ad wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't think they are trying to show that the other side is bad. Anders wanted a war that would lead the mages to have autonomy from the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars; that's why he killed Grand Cleric Elthina. Some people want to take down the Chantry for a plethora of reasons, mostly having to do with either the mages or the elves. The Chantry of Andraste engages in behavior that some posters condemn as horrific, monstrous, and even evil, so killing members of the Andrastian Chantry or the Templar Order isn't going to be seen in the same light by everyone.
No, terroist never see themselves as terroists. They see themselves as symbols of justice, freedom, and change. But really, they are causing more harm than good. Blowing up a religious institution in the name of mage freedom was by far the dumbest act one could do to show that mages should be sympathized with. "I'll show you why mages are feared," indeed.
That may excuse her inherent prejudice, but she takes it too far, She reminds me of Joe McCarthyNecanor wrote...
Steelcan wrote...
Meredith also can't tell the difference between a blood mage and her own supporters. She's a gorram lunatic and I gladly killed her.Necanor wrote...
Do you know Meredith's backgound story? As much as I dislike her, I somewhat understand her hatred for mages. I don't hate mages, they have a right to live like anyone else, but they are at any time a potential major threat to themselves and their surrounding. Either that or they become hungry for power and kill or enslave non-mages.
Yes she's a fanatical, power hungry, insane lunatic but I understand where some of her hatred is coming from.
Guest_The Mad Hanar_*
Lord Raijin wrote...
The Mad Hanar wrote...
Steelcan wrote...
Honestly I don't see the point to blowing up Chantries.
Its a powerful message I suppose, but blowing up Templars would be a little more practical...
This, so much this. Though both are acts of terrorism that will never accompish the mage's goals of having people feel sympathetic for them, if that is their goal.
When it comes to war nothing is an act of terrorism. Both teams blow each other buildings up all the time.
The mages primary goals is to fight for their own freedom. To end the imprisonment of the Chantry by removing their manacles from their wrists and ankles; to want to be treated as humans with the same equal rights as any other non-mages. To be allowed to raise a family without the Chantry having to rip their child away from them to be sent to the Chantry.
How can people not feel sympathetic for them, and knowing their cause?
Do you know what a slave is? Being held captive is not the definition of slavery. Someone's view of something does not make it right. That's the problem with a lot of arguments of BSN.LobselVith8 wrote...
Br3ad wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
Apparently, so do in-game characters like Aldenon the Wise, Anders, and pro-mage Hawke, as they all condemn the Chantry controlled Circles as slavery. The moderate First Enchanter Irving also uses dialogue that suggests that he sees it the same way when he profusely thanks the Hero of Ferelden for freeing the local Circle of Magi from it's shackles if the protagonist asks the ruler of Ferelden to emancipate the Circle of Ferelden from the Chantry and the templars. Not to mention the authors who talk about mages leaving the Chantry controlled Circles because they didn't want to remain servants of the Chantry.
It's nothing of the sort. That's just propaganda, and my Mage Hawke never said anything of the sort. I don't blindly pick upper right in DA][ anymore than I do in Mass Effect.
It isn't propoganda when characters in-game explicitly state it as their view on the Chantry controlled Circles, and even in-game authors support it as their perspective of the institution. You may not like it, but that's how they view the Circles of Magi. As for the Champion of Kirkwall, well... Hawke said and did many things that were completely outside player control.
Again misusing the term slave, when to my knowledge, mages are held captive and allowed to read books to their hearts desire. That is not what a slave is. And there is nothing complicated about it. He blew up a building. Case close, shows over, zip up your fly. There's nothing else to get from it. There is no justification for blowing up a building where the innocent gather just because it will have a big impact. He didn't do it becasue mages were being "inslaved," he blew up the Chantry to stop any chance of peace. "I removed the chance for compromise because there can be no compromise." He says it himself. It was by fat the dumbest thing a DA character has ever done. Ever. I mean out of anything. Thinking that tainted blood would free an archdemon had more reasoning than anything Anders has ever done in DA][.Br3ad wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't think they are trying to show that the other side is bad. Anders wanted a war that would lead the mages to have autonomy from the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars; that's why he killed Grand Cleric Elthina. Some people want to take down the Chantry for a plethora of reasons, mostly having to do with either the mages or the elves. The Chantry of Andraste engages in behavior that some posters condemn as horrific, monstrous, and even evil, so killing members of the Andrastian Chantry or the Templar Order isn't going to be seen in the same light by everyone.
No, terroist never see themselves as terroists. They see themselves as symbols of justice, freedom, and change. But really, they are causing more harm than good. Blowing up a religious institution in the name of mage freedom was by far the dumbest act one could do to show that mages should be sympathized with. "I'll show you why mages are feared," indeed.
Anders' people were being enslaved by the religious institution of the land, to the point where his people were vilified by religious docturine and sometimes killed in lynch mobs by Andrastians, and templars were taught they have dominion over people like him.It's why some people see this as something a bit more complicated than how you might see it. Given the situation, I think more than few posters understand why some mages would be willing to fight back against the tyrannical institution that was brutally subjugating the mages, including Anders.
As I said before, everyone has their own opinion on the situation, so it's easy to see that not everyone will agree on the situation.
I feel all the sympathy in the world for mages. But equal rigths implies mages and non-mages are equal and they are not. Mage have abilities normal people do not have, abilities that give them advantage over others and that also make them extremely dangerous.Lord Raijin wrote...
When it comes to war nothing is an act of terrorism. Both teams blow each other buildings up all the time.
The mages primary goals is to fight for their own freedom. To end the imprisonment of the Chantry by removing their manacles from their wrists and ankles; to want to be treated as humans with the same equal rights as any other non-mages. To be allowed to raise a family without the Chantry having to rip their child away from them to be sent to the Chantry.
How can people not feel sympathetic for them, and knowing their cause?
I know and I agree.Steelcan wrote...
That may excuse her inherent prejudice, but she takes it too far, She reminds me of Joe McCarthyNecanor wrote...
Steelcan wrote...
Meredith also can't tell the difference between a blood mage and her own supporters. She's a gorram lunatic and I gladly killed her.Necanor wrote...
Do you know Meredith's backgound story? As much as I dislike her, I somewhat understand her hatred for mages. I don't hate mages, they have a right to live like anyone else, but they are at any time a potential major threat to themselves and their surrounding. Either that or they become hungry for power and kill or enslave non-mages.
Yes she's a fanatical, power hungry, insane lunatic but I understand where some of her hatred is coming from.
That assumption is based on the idea that any society where mages are free will INEVITABLY end up like Tevinter. It might be a possible outcome, but I don't see why coexistence is inherently impossible. There has to be middle ground between Tevinter's blatant abuse of non-mages and locking mages away in towers and treating them like cattle.MisterJB wrote...
I feel all the sympathy in the world for mages. But equal rigths implies mages and non-mages are equal and they are not. Mage have abilities normal people do not have, abilities that give them advantage over others and that also make them extremely dangerous.Lord Raijin wrote...
When it comes to war nothing is an act of terrorism. Both teams blow each other buildings up all the time.
The mages primary goals is to fight for their own freedom. To end the imprisonment of the Chantry by removing their manacles from their wrists and ankles; to want to be treated as humans with the same equal rights as any other non-mages. To be allowed to raise a family without the Chantry having to rip their child away from them to be sent to the Chantry.
How can people not feel sympathetic for them, and knowing their cause?
If mages are free, either the world will end in a wasteland where Abominations are more common than mages or a world where those without magic will be second class citizens.
I find neither to be acceptable so, I side with the Templars.
Modifié par Steelcan, 28 septembre 2013 - 09:05 .
LobselVith8 wrote...
Lotion Soronnar wrote...
But don't you understand Br3ad?
If your goal is freedom for mages or restoration of Dales, then EVERYTHING and ANYTHING is fully justified and morally right.
I didn't realize overthrowing the Orlesian Empire from the Dales so that the elven people can have their own kingdom was on the same level as the Rite of Tranquility or the Right of Annulment, or generations of mages being forced into servitude for the Chantry because the templars are told they have dominion over mages by divine right.
I'm thinking about a Dalish Inquisitor saving elven men, women, and children from purges in Alienages, or Dalish clans being hunted down by templars. I'm thinking about saving the elves for another 700 years of systematic killings, rapes, and subjugation by people who think the elves are less than people.
Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 28 septembre 2013 - 09:06 .
Retour en haut
