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[Lotion Soronarr]

Lord Raijin wrote...

How can people not feel sympathetic for them, and knowing their cause?

Because some people see a bigger picture and do not let a single emotion govern their decision-making process?

I have sympathy for the mages (and elves), but I cannot let it overrride my common sense.

Letting mages go free would be a bad move that would only cause more death (of mages and non-mages alike).
Mages can dream and want equality all they want - but they cannot get it. They aren't equal.
You cannot have equality (under law) without having equality (in practice).

[Kalas Magnus]

so prove that the templars were right by keeping you locked up? sounds good to me.

[Steelcan]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...
When it comes to war nothing is an act of terrorism. Both teams blow each other buildings up all the time.

The mages primary goals is to fight for their own freedom. To end the imprisonment of the Chantry by removing their manacles from their wrists and ankles; to want to be treated as humans with the same equal rights as any other non-mages. To be allowed to raise a family without the Chantry having to rip their child away from them to be sent to the Chantry.

How can people not feel sympathetic for them, and knowing their cause?

I feel all the sympathy in the world for mages. But equal rigths implies mages and non-mages are equal and they are not. Mage have abilities normal people do not have, abilities that give them advantage over others and that also make them extremely dangerous.
If mages are free, either the world will end in a wasteland where Abominations are more common than mages or a world where those without magic will be second class citizens.
I find neither to be acceptable so, I side with the Templars.

That assumption is based on the idea that any society where mages are free will INEVITABLY end up like Tevinter.  It might be a possible outcome, but I don't see why coexistence is inherently impossible.  There has to be middle ground between Tevinter's blatant abuse of non-mages and locking mages away in towers and treating them like cattle.

Maybe like a "go here so you don't go crazy" mage clinic. Or have a Circle, but allow more freedom, such as being able to come and go freely. That way they can be monitered or they get help when they need to, and they can also live a life outside of captivity.

I'd also allow study of blood magic.  Banning it has done nothing to prevent its use by those tempted by it.  They just resort to demonic deal in order to get, if they are instead taught how to use it responsibly things might be a bit better.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Necanor wrote...

Do you know Meredith's backgound story? As much as I dislike her, I somewhat understand her hatred for mages. I don't hate mages, they have a right to live like anyone else, but they are at any time a potential major threat to themselves and their surrounding. Either that or they become hungry for power and kill or enslave non-mages.

Dude, Meredith doesn't hate mages.
She when whacko because of the idol, but she doesn't hate them. She's paranoid and mistrustfull of mages.

[ultimatekotorfan]

Pro-mage threads like this have become the greatest conversion tool of pro-templars. Being radical makes you seem like a homicidal maniac, not a passionate revolutionary and it's a big turnoff to people who might listen to you had you made an actual intelligent argument. It's doesn't even make for interesting conversation, it's just fanaticism for fanaticism's sake.

[MisterJB]

Steelcan wrote...
That assumption is based on the idea that any society where mages are free will INEVITABLY end up like Tevinter.  It might be a possible outcome, but I don't see why coexistence is inherently impossible.  There has to be middle ground between Tevinter's blatant abuse of non-mages and locking mages away in towers and treating them like cattle.

Not at all. I don't believe that the inevitable secondary role non-mages would be delegated to in a society of free mages has to be even similar to Tevinter at all. Slavery can remain illegal and every noble in every human country could remain a non-mage and it would still happen.
What I speak of is the fact magic is an advantage that mages can and will exploit to improve their lives much like everyone else does. Unfortunately, non-mages simply can't compete with mages who would, inevitably, come to dominate all forms of commerce. When that happens, it won't matter whose ass sits on what throne. Mages will hold all the real power.

Abominations we can deal with. It's when mages supply armor, weapons and food for your armies that you are f*cked.

This is already observable in Thedas where many societies see magic as a gift, not a curse and where mages are as free as any man. These are Tevinter (where mages rule), the Dalish (where mages rule), Rivain (where mages rule) and the Chasind (where mages rule).

Modifié par MisterJB, 28 septembre 2013 - 09:17 .

[ultimatekotorfan]

Lord Raijin wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Honestly I don't see the point to blowing up Chantries.

Its a powerful message I suppose, but blowing up Templars would be a little more practical...

This, so much this. Though both are acts of terrorism that will never accompish the mage's goals of having people feel sympathetic for them, if that is their goal.

When it comes to war nothing is an act of terrorism. Both teams blow each other buildings up all the time.

The mages primary goals is to fight for their own freedom. To end the imprisonment of the Chantry by removing their manacles from their wrists and ankles; to want to be treated as humans with the same equal rights as any other non-mages. To be allowed to raise a family without the Chantry having to rip their child away from them to be sent to the Chantry.

How can people not feel sympathetic for them, and knowing their cause? 

Because people like you create threads entitled, "My Mage Inquisitor wants to blow up a Chantry" and you lose all credibility.

[Steelcan]

MisterJB wrote...
Not at all. I don't believe that the inevitable secondary role non-mages would be delegated to in a society of free mages has to be even similar to Tevinter at all. Slavery can remain illegal and every noble in every human country could remain a non-mage and it would still happen.
What I speak of is the fact magic is an advantage that mages can and will exploit to improve their lives much like everyone else does. Unfortunately, non-mages simply can't compete with mages who would, inevitably, come to dominate all forms of commerce. When that happens, it won't matter whose ass sits on what throne. Mages will hold all the real power.

This is already observable in Thedas where many societies see magic as a gift, not a curse and where mages are as free as any man. These are Tevinter (where mages rule), the Dalish (where mages rule), Rivain (where mages rule) and the Chasind (where mages rule).

As much as I dislike the Dalish, you cannot argue that their embrace of magic has really put them on top of anything.  Dalish mages and Dalish mundanes are just as powerless at the end of the day.  They exist mostly at the mercy of others.

[Lord Raijin]

Necanor wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

When it comes to war nothing is an act of terrorism. Both teams blow each other buildings up all the time.

The mages primary goals is to fight for their own freedom. To end the imprisonment of the Chantry by removing their manacles from their wrists and ankles; to want to be treated as humans with the same equal rights as any other non-mages. To be allowed to raise a family without the Chantry having to rip their child away from them to be sent to the Chantry.

How can people not feel sympathetic for them, and knowing their cause?

Do you know Meredith's backgound story? As much as I dislike her, I somewhat understand her hatred for mages. I don't hate mages, they have a right to live like anyone else, but they are at any time a potential major threat to themselves and their surrounding. Either that or they become hungry for power and kill or enslave non-mages.

Yes I most definitely do know Meredith's background story, but how exactly is that an excuse for her deep hatred for mages? The fact that her parents sheltered her weak mage sister from the circle, and risk the lives of 70 people seems to be a bit selfish.

Meredith should be angry at her parents, and to parents who do the same exact thing to their mage children.

[MisterJB]

Steelcan wrote...
As much as I dislike the Dalish, you cannot argue that their embrace of magic has really put them on top of anything.  Dalish mages and Dalish mundanes are just as powerless at the end of the day.  They exist mostly at the mercy of others.

Their embrace of magic has lead to their highest position in government and the only one with any real power over the affairs of the clan being open only for mages.
That was my point and why I included them.

[Steelcan]

MisterJB wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
As much as I dislike the Dalish, you cannot argue that their embrace of magic has really put them on top of anything.  Dalish mages and Dalish mundanes are just as powerless at the end of the day.  They exist mostly at the mercy of others.

Their embrace of magic has lead to their highest position in government and the only one with any real power over the affairs of the clan being open only for mages.
That was my point and why I included them.

So whats your point?  We don't see the Dalish mages going around blatantly enslaving non-mages.

[Br3admax]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

When it comes to war nothing is an act of terrorism. Both teams blow each other buildings up all the time.

The mages primary goals is to fight for their own freedom. To end the imprisonment of the Chantry by removing their manacles from their wrists and ankles; to want to be treated as humans with the same equal rights as any other non-mages. To be allowed to raise a family without the Chantry having to rip their child away from them to be sent to the Chantry.

How can people not feel sympathetic for them, and knowing their cause?

Do you know Meredith's backgound story? As much as I dislike her, I somewhat understand her hatred for mages. I don't hate mages, they have a right to live like anyone else, but they are at any time a potential major threat to themselves and their surrounding. Either that or they become hungry for power and kill or enslave non-mages.

Yes I most definitely do know Meredith's background story, but how exactly is that an excuse for her deep hatred for mages? The fact that her parents sheltered her weak mage sister from the circle, and risk the lives of 70 people seems to be a bit selfish.

Meredith should be angry at her parents, and to parents who do the same exact thing to their mage children.

What are you arguing for again, exactly? 

[Kalas Magnus]

Necanor wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

The fate of the Mage Rebellion.

i like it. then maybe the mages will learn that it could be worse.

[Lord Raijin]

ultimatekotorfan wrote...

Because people like you create threads entitled, "My Mage Inquisitor wants to blow up a Chantry" and you lose all credibility.

So everyone is going to be all pro templar now since I've created this thread? Besides blowing up the chantry seems to be rather fun, especially with music playing in the background.

[eye basher]

See this is the kind of thinking that got the tevinter on everyones hit list in the first place going around blowing up buldings sends a bad message to regular people the ones your trying to influence especially chantry churches that offer food,shelter and help to those regular people that's the kind of mesage that makes people afraid,angry and thinking that somebody should go out there hunt you down like an animal and kill you.

[MisterJB]

Steelcan wrote...
So whats your point?  We don't see the Dalish mages going around blatantly enslaving non-mages.

I thought I had made it clear. Mage freedom will lead to elitism where mages are the top and non-mages at the bottom due to their magical advantages. It doesn't have to involve slavery at all.

[Steelcan]

MisterJB wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
So whats your point?  We don't see the Dalish mages going around blatantly enslaving non-mages.

I thought I had made it clear. Mage freedom will lead to elitism where mages are the top and non-mages at the bottom due to their magical advantages. It doesn't have to involve slavery at all.

natural selection at work.

If magic is truly a genetic trait it could just be the way humanity is evolving:wizard:

[Lord Raijin]

Br3ad wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

When it comes to war nothing is an act of terrorism. Both teams blow each other buildings up all the time.

The mages primary goals is to fight for their own freedom. To end the imprisonment of the Chantry by removing their manacles from their wrists and ankles; to want to be treated as humans with the same equal rights as any other non-mages. To be allowed to raise a family without the Chantry having to rip their child away from them to be sent to the Chantry.

How can people not feel sympathetic for them, and knowing their cause?

Do you know Meredith's backgound story? As much as I dislike her, I somewhat understand her hatred for mages. I don't hate mages, they have a right to live like anyone else, but they are at any time a potential major threat to themselves and their surrounding. Either that or they become hungry for power and kill or enslave non-mages.

Yes I most definitely do know Meredith's background story, but how exactly is that an excuse for her deep hatred for mages? The fact that her parents sheltered her weak mage sister from the circle, and risk the lives of 70 people seems to be a bit selfish.

Meredith should be angry at her parents, and to parents who do the same exact thing to their mage children.

What are you arguing for again, exactly? 

Meredith's anger for mages due to her background is irrelevant. It's just another emotional reaction that comes with bereavement as it clearly seems that Meredith did not have someones shoulders to cry on during her grieving time.

Meredith needs a hug from another mage. Perhabs she should've had started up a relationship with Orsino instead of fighting with him all the time.

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 28 septembre 2013 - 09:32 .

[MisterJB]

Steelcan wrote...
natural selection at work.
If magic is truly a genetic trait it could just be the way humanity is evolving:wizard:

You may think so but there's no reason non-mages should just sheepishly accept this rather than fight for their freedom. But, you know, they don't have awesome magical powers so, most fans don't seem to care.

[ultimatekotorfan]

Lord Raijin wrote...

ultimatekotorfan wrote...

Because people like you create threads entitled, "My Mage Inquisitor wants to blow up a Chantry" and you lose all credibility.

So everyone is going to be all pro templar now since I've created this thread? Besides blowing up the chantry seems to be rather fun, especially with music playing in the background.

No, but people don't like fanatics. And you're a fanatic.

The video is actually pretty funny though.

[Steelcan]

MisterJB wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
natural selection at work.
If magic is truly a genetic trait it could just be the way humanity is evolving:wizard:

You may think so but there's no reason non-mages should just sheepishly accept this rather than fight for their freedom. But, you know, they don't have awesome magical powers so, most fans don't seem to care.

And I'm sure the neanderthals didn't like being outcompeted by Cro-Magnons