267 réponses à ce sujet

[wolfhowwl]

Lord Raijin wrote...
Meredith needs a hug from another mage. Perhabs she should've had started up a relationship with Orsino instead of fighting with him all the time.

Add this one too.



This fanbase is ridiculous.

[Cainhurst Crow]

MisterJB wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
That assumption is based on the idea that any society where mages are free will INEVITABLY end up like Tevinter.  It might be a possible outcome, but I don't see why coexistence is inherently impossible.  There has to be middle ground between Tevinter's blatant abuse of non-mages and locking mages away in towers and treating them like cattle.

Not at all. I don't believe that the inevitable secondary role non-mages would be delegated to in a society of free mages has to be even similar to Tevinter at all. Slavery can remain illegal and every noble in every human country could remain a non-mage and it would still happen.
What I speak of is the fact magic is an advantage that mages can and will exploit to improve their lives much like everyone else does. Unfortunately, non-mages simply can't compete with mages who would, inevitably, come to dominate all forms of commerce. When that happens, it won't matter whose ass sits on what throne. Mages will hold all the real power.

Abominations we can deal with. It's when mages supply armor, weapons and food for your armies that you are f*cked.

This is already observable in Thedas where many societies see magic as a gift, not a curse and where mages are as free as any man. These are Tevinter (where mages rule), the Dalish (where mages rule), Rivain (where mages rule) and the Chasind (where mages rule).

Aren't soliders more advantaged than regular people? Maybe we shouldn't allow them to ever leave service and force them to live in seperate communites isolated from the rest of thedas.

If mages are really better than non-mages, than they should lead, because they would make better leaders. Holding back a society because those of lesser skill demand more than those whose skills earn them their rewards will only invite stagnation and discontent. Mages don't need to stay locked up, and they don't need to have any relation to their families revoked as is required under chantry law. They can have some restrictions placed on them, but to have every restriction placed on them? That is simple knee-jerk foolishness.

It almost sounds like punishing atheletes, or scholars, or engineers, or soliders, or cooks, for being better in their field than normal people would be. It sends a message of "Doing your best with the talents your given is wrong".

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 28 septembre 2013 - 09:37 .

[Wulfram]

My Mage Inquisitor wants to nail Ninety Five theses to the chantry door

[LobselVith8]

Br3ad wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It isn't propoganda when characters in-game explicitly state it as their view on the Chantry controlled Circles, and evenin-game authors support it as their perspective of the institution. You may not like it, but that's how they view the Circles of Magi. As for the Champion of Kirkwall, well... Hawke said and did many things that were completely outside player control. 

Do you know what a slave is? Being held captive is not the definition of slavery. Someone's view of something does not make it right. That's the problem with a lot of arguments of BSN. 

The Chantry controlled Circles fit the definition of slavery, which has been brought up time and again in the threads about mages and templars. Regardless of how one views the institution, some characters in Thedas condemn the Circles as slavery, so I don't see why you're acting like this is a point of view limited to posters on BSN.  

Br3ad wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Anders' people were being enslaved by the religious institution of the land, to the point where his people were vilified by religious docturine and sometimes killed in lynch mobs by Andrastians, and templars were taught they have dominion over people like him.It's why some people see this as something a bit more complicated than how you might see it. Given the situation, I think more than few posters understand why some mages would be willing to fight back against the tyrannical institution that was brutally subjugating the mages, including Anders. 

As I said before, everyone has their own opinion on the situation, so it's easy to see that not everyone will agree on the situation. 

Again misusing the term slave, when to my knowledge, mages are held captive and allowed to read books to their hearts desire. That is not what a slave is. And there is nothing complicated about it. He blew up a building. Case close, shows over, zip up your fly. There's nothing else to get from it. There is no justification for blowing up a building where the innocent gather just because it will have a big impact.

You're welcome to ignore that characters in Thedas condemn the Chantry controlled Circles as slavery, but your opinion on the matter isn't going to change that it played a role in why Anders wanted to liberate his people from servitude. Also, there were Chantry members and templars at night in the Kirkwall Chantry; it's closed to civilians during the day, as we see during the Acts when Hawke breaks into the Chantry.

Br3ad wrote...

He didn't do it becasue mages were being "inslaved," he blew up the Chantry to stop any chance of peace.

Anders continually condemns the Chantry controlled Circles as slavery, and he wanted mages to fight for their freedom, since he saw the Circles as an injustice.

Br3ad wrote...

"I removed the chance for compromise because there can be no compromise." He says it himself. It was by fat the dumbest thing a DA character has ever done. Ever. I mean out of anything. Thinking that tainted blood would free an archdemon had more reasoning than anything Anders has ever done in DA][. 

Right or wrong, Anders' actions did lead to the Circles of Magi breaking free from the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 28 septembre 2013 - 09:38 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

Steelcan wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
As much as I dislike the Dalish, you cannot argue that their embrace of magic has really put them on top of anything.  Dalish mages and Dalish mundanes are just as powerless at the end of the day.  They exist mostly at the mercy of others.

Their embrace of magic has lead to their highest position in government and the only one with any real power over the affairs of the clan being open only for mages.
That was my point and why I included them.

So whats your point?  We don't see the Dalish mages going around blatantly enslaving non-mages.

So you have a problem with that, but having the only positions of government be held only by those lucky enough to inherant a surname of importance, thanks to what their great, great, grandfather did a long time ago, is the right way to go?

[Medhia Nox]

@Lord Raijin: So, Meredith's reaction is irrelevant - but every mage that cries: "I will blow up chantry's because I'm butthurt." Is totally valid yes?

You must have had an Circle Tower education.

[Cainhurst Crow]

MisterJB wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
So whats your point?  We don't see the Dalish mages going around blatantly enslaving non-mages.

I thought I had made it clear. Mage freedom will lead to elitism where mages are the top and non-mages at the bottom due to their magical advantages. It doesn't have to involve slavery at all.

Good. Maybe we'll get more skilled people in, and not have everything decided by whose great grandfather fought in what war and banged whose great grandmother.

[MisterJB]

Steelcan wrote...
And I'm sure the neanderthals didn't like being outcompeted by Cro-Magnons

Yep, exactly why non-mages have to fight.

[spirosz]

I actually wouldn't mind doing the same.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I didn't realize overthrowing the Orlesian Empire from the Dales so that the elven people can have their own kingdom was on the same level as the Rite of Tranquility or the Right of Annulment, or generations of mages being forced into servitude for the Chantry because the templars are told they have dominion over mages by divine right.

It is..because you end up killing and hurting people in the end and commiting attrocities.
Over far MORE poeple to boot.

You're brining in more death and suffering into this world. Not less.

I think a homeland where elves have religious freedom and men, women, and children won't be killed in purges will bring less death and suffering in the long run.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm thinking about a Dalish Inquisitor saving elven men, women, and children from purges in Alienages, or Dalish clans being hunted down by templars. I'm thinking about saving the elves for another 700 years of systematic killings, rapes, and subjugation by people who think the elves are less than people. 

Your method of "saving them" involes killings, rapes and subjugation of others. 

You're confusing an independent Dales with the Chantry controlled Circles, where mages has been beaten, tortured, raped, and even made tranquil. In fact, you defended the Chantry controlled Circles despite the bad that could happen, so I don't see why you're even bringing up this issue in this thread.

[Medhia Nox]

How does this idiotic elf conversation invade every topic and derail them?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Darth Brotarian wrote...
They would make better leaders. Holding back a society because those of lesser skill demand more than those whose skills earn them their rewards will only invite stagnation and discontent. Mages don't need to stay locked up, and they don't need to have any relation to their families revoked as is required under chantry law. They can have some restrictions placed on them, but to have every restriction placed on them? That is simple knee-jerk foolishness.

It almost sounds like punishing atheletes, or scholars, or engineers, or soliders, or cooks, for being better in their field than normal people would be. It sends a message of "Doing your best with the talents your given is wrong".

So a mage supremacist then?

b.t.w., Thedoasian mages don't have every restriction placed on them. Your'e thinking the Qunari.

And no.
Mages aren't comparable to regular humans. For various (obvious..but aparenlty not to everyone) reasons.

[BlueMagitek]

Because the usual group of people, that's why. `_^

[eye basher]

The main problem mages have in thedas is that most people will never trust them why is called the tevinter imperium that alone has given mages a really bad image it's like being a convict no matter what you do in life you will always be a ex-con.

[Ravensword]

MisterJB wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
And I'm sure the neanderthals didn't like being outcompeted by Cro-Magnons

Yep, exactly why non-mages have to fight.

That's not very encouraging when you consider the fate of the Neanderthals.

[Medhia Nox]

@Ravensword: The presumption is that the Neanderthals are non-mages.

With demon possession alone - the mages are outmatched. Think of all the Desire and Pride demons having a freaking FEAST with this current war. You think they're going to the Templars and common folk or the giant freaking light bulbs flinging spells around?

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The Chantry controlled Circles fit the definition of slavery, which has been brought up time and again in the threads about mages and templars.

And which has been countered again and again...even by the lead writer.
But pro-mages cannot stand that.

Regardless of how one views the institution, some characters in Thedas condemn the Circles as slavery, so I don't see why you're acting like this is a point of view limited to posters on BSN.

And I'm condeming the common workplace in a capitalist society as slavery.
Doesn't make me right.

Also, there were Chantry members and templars at night in the Kirkwall Chantry; it's closed to civilians during the day, as we see during the Acts when Hawke breaks into the Chantry.

Keep saying that to yourself.

Even Anders admitts he killed many innocents.

[MisterJB]

Darth Brotarian wrote...
Aren't soliders more advantaged than regular people? Maybe we shouldn't allow them to ever leave service and force them to live in seperate communites isolated from the rest of thedas.

If mages are really better than non-mages, than they should lead, because they would make better leaders. Holding back a society because those of lesser skill demand more than those whose skills earn them their rewards will only invite stagnation and discontent. Mages don't need to stay locked up, and they don't need to have any relation to their families revoked as is required under chantry law. They can have some restrictions placed on them, but to have every restriction placed on them? That is simple knee-jerk foolishness.

It almost sounds like punishing atheletes, or scholars, or engineers, or soliders, or cooks, for being better in their field than normal people would be. It sends a message of "Doing your best with the talents your given is wrong".

No, soldiers are experts in one field which doesn't mean they don't require products that they can't produce on their own such as food or weapons.

The abilities given by magic are not the type that would benefit a leader unless our system of governance is based on who can throw the biggest fireball (like Tevinter); thinking is, in fact, the one place where non-mages can easily outclass mages but that doesn't mean they might not be outcompeted in all other fields. You might see this as simply natural selection but I see it as one group of people forcing another to the fringes of society. For instance, in Tevinter, Jowan will sooner be Archon than Anora but I don't think anyone would argue she is the better ruler.
All of us are non-mages and we placed the man on the moon; amongst other things; so, I don't agree that non-magical society will be held back simply because magic is not present; in fact, relying too much on magic might have been exactly what has stagnated Thedosian development.

Is that fair to mages? No, but there is also no fairness in some being born with the ability to kill others with their minds while others aren't. I can train and study and become a better cook than the best cook in the world but I could never train to have magic.

Darth Brotarian wrote...
So you have a problem with that, but having the only positions of government be held only by those lucky enough to inherant a surname of importance, thanks to what their great, great, grandfather did a long time ago, is the right way to go?

Of course not but we have since, mostly, overgrown that exactly because nobles have no inherent advantage beyond that which we give them.
Magic has inherent power and always will; if the people stop thinking the Theirin blood is important, it ceases to be important but if the people stop thinking that fire doesn't burn, fill will continue to burn.

[Ravensword]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Ravensword: The presumption is that the Neanderthals are non-mages.

No ****, Sherlock.

With demon possession alone - the mages are outmatched. Think of all the Desire and Pride demons having a freaking FEAST with this current war. You think they're going to the Templars and common folk or the giant freaking light bulbs flinging spells around?

What's your point?

[Medhia Nox]

@Ravensword: My name's not Sherlock.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I didn't realize overthrowing the Orlesian Empire from the Dales so that the elven people can have their own kingdom was on the same level as the Rite of Tranquility or the Right of Annulment, or generations of mages being forced into servitude for the Chantry because the templars are told they have dominion over mages by divine right.

It is..because you end up killing and hurting people in the end and commiting attrocities.
Over far MORE poeple to boot.

You're brining in more death and suffering into this world. Not less.

I think a homeland where elves have religious freedom and men, women, and children won't be killed in purges will bring less death and suffering in the long run.

What do you call "human nations sorroudning the new Dales unite and attack the bastard elves from all sides, extermianting the elven race"?

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Your method of "saving them" involes killings, rapes and subjugation of others. 

You're confusing an independent Dales with the Chantry controlled Circles, where mages has been beaten, tortured, raped, and even made tranquil. In fact, you defended the Chantry controlled Circles despite the bad that could happen, so I don't see why you're even bringing up this issue in this thread.

I defended the Circles, because they are in principle a reasonable system that saves lives and because they are necessary.

You on the other hand support genocide and conquest because...well, because you're fixated on the Dales. IF you had any brains, your plan would be to find the elves a NEW home (not hte dales) in a peacefull fashion. Kinda like the Ferdelen boon.

[x-aizen-x]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Thats right. He wants to pick up the work that Anders left behind and contuine blowing up as many chantries as he can possibly can.

I'm sick of tired of saving the world anyways. Let me have some fun by blowing some chantries up.

omg I know exactly how you feel. I was so happy when anders blew up the chantry. im tired saving people. my inquisitor is going to be evil as **** just like my warden.