224 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

dreamgazer wrote...

Can I make a generalization about both "pro-enders" and "anti-enders" still kvetching over the ending?

Modifié par KaiserShep, 28 septembre 2013 - 11:24 .

[AresKeith]

txgoldrush wrote...

spirosz wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Opinions are opinions.

True. 

But facts are facts.

And not every opinion deserves equal respect.

What's next? Is TLoU a crappy game and DA2 amazing?

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

txgoldrush wrote...

The Catalyst not only isn't a deus ex machina, the ending actually INVERTS the classic Greek use of the Deus Ex Machina.

Too bad the dense fanbase can't figure that out.

Er... Let me help you out on this one.

Deus Ex Machina

Literally "God through a machine."

A device to resolve a drama that removes from the writers the impossible task of resolving a conflict that has become to large and complex to be resolved by a mortal human protagonist.

Mass Effect 3 is about as textbook an example of "Deus Ex Machina" as has been done in decades.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

txgoldrush wrote...

Facts are facts...

What I have said about the trope being inverted is not an opinion, its a fact.

And a lot of BSNers and anti enders are dense. How do I know that someone is dense? By calling the ending a deus ex machina. Sorry but DEM does not mean "plot twist you don't like".

Hmm. I hadn't read this.

You obviously don't know what "Deus Ex Machina" means... so it probably isn't a good idea to go insulting those that do... 

[txgoldrush]

Jeremiah12LGeek wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

The Catalyst not only isn't a deus ex machina, the ending actually INVERTS the classic Greek use of the Deus Ex Machina.

Too bad the dense fanbase can't figure that out.

Er... Let me help you out on this one.

Deus Ex Machina

Literally "God through a machine."

A device to resolve a drama that removes from the writers the impossible task of resolving a conflict that has become to large and complex to be resolved by a mortal human protagonist.

Mass Effect 3 is about as textbook an example of "Deus Ex Machina" as has been done in decades.

You are not getting it.

The mortal human protagonist SOLVES THE PROBLEM that the god of the machine is having, especially if Synthesis is chosen.

That's classic deus ex machina done BACKWARDS.

[txgoldrush]

AresKeith wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

spirosz wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Opinions are opinions.

True. 

But facts are facts.

And not every opinion deserves equal respect.

What's next? Is TLoU a crappy game and DA2 amazing?

Whooops....I think TLoU is the best game of the year, and one of the best of the gen.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

txgoldrush wrote...
But facts are facts.

And not every opinion deserves equal respect.

I'm going to recommend you use a dictionary and an encyclopedia to look up words like "foreshadowing," "Deus Ex Machina," "fact," "opinion," and "respect."

I have never seen anyone who has soo little understanding of the words that they use.  It's beyond incredible. It would be funny if you weren't so hostile to everyone who gently tries to point out how you've misunderstood the meaning of all of them.

In any case, you're making this discussion take way more energy than I have to spare... I'm going to scurry back to the corners of the internet that don't hurt my brain for a while... 

Modifié par Jeremiah12LGeek, 29 septembre 2013 - 01:54 .

[AresKeith]

txgoldrush wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

spirosz wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Opinions are opinions.

True. 

But facts are facts.

And not every opinion deserves equal respect.

What's next? Is TLoU a crappy game and DA2 amazing?

Whooops....I think TLoU is the best game of the year, and one of the best of the gen.

There may still be hope after all

But you didn't answer the one about DA2

[Pressedcat]

Reorte wrote...

Pressedcat wrote...

If the Intelligence was a Deus ex Machina, there would have been no need to build or use the Crucible: at the final moment, just as all hope was lost and the Reapers were on the verge of winning, he simply would have appeared to set the Galaxy to rights, restoring order and peace.

The Crucible plans pretty much do that. The timing isn't quite last-minute but it is "No hope at all, oh look, here's something completely out-of-the-blue with awesome powers that can save us." The Catalyst itself isn't one, it's just a badly thought out dump of dubious exposition.

The discovery of the Crucible plans are convenient (arguably overly so), but I don't really think it qualifies as a Deus ex Machina. I don't think it appears near enough to the end-game, nor does it appear fully formed and ready to save the galaxy. If I was to assign a trope to the Crucible, I would argue that fully formed it most closely corresponds to the 'magical doo-hickey sword' that is the only thing that can kill the big-bad-guy dragon/demon/rabbit. Thus the building of the Crucible becomes some sci-fi variation of the classical hero's quest to retrieve said sword from the mysterious valley of just-challenging-enough-to-teach-the-hero-valuable-lessons-but-not-so-challenging-as-to-prevent-the-hero's-return-at-the-last-moment. You know: that trope...

Not perfectly so, since Shepard does not have to go on this quest personally, but you get my drift.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

txgoldrush wrote...
You are not getting it.

The mortal human protagonist SOLVES THE PROBLEM that the god of the machine is having, especially if Synthesis is chosen.

That's classic deus ex machina done BACKWARDS.

The Deus Ex Machina image is the Machine lowering the God down to the mortal plane to lift the protagonist up to the heavenly plane and explain how they are being saved from the trials created for them by the God in the first place.

Which is exactly what the Catalyst does when it plucks Shephard from the ashes of the conflict that would have destroyed him/her if the Catalyst hadn't interfered.

You could have clicked the link, and actually read the definition.

It would have helped you "get it."

Modifié par Jeremiah12LGeek, 28 septembre 2013 - 11:44 .

[txgoldrush]

Jeremiah12LGeek wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...
You are not getting it.

The mortal human protagonist SOLVES THE PROBLEM that the god of the machine is having, especially if Synthesis is chosen.

That's classic deus ex machina done BACKWARDS.

The Deus Ex Machina image is the Machine lowering the God down to the mortal plane to lift the protagonist up to the heavenly plane and explain how they are being saved from the trials created for them by the God in the first place.

Which is exactly what the Catalyst does when it plucks Shephard from the ashes of the conflict that would have destroyed him/her if the Catalyst hadn't interfered.

You could have clicked the link, and actually read the definition.

It would have helped you "get it."

However, in ME3's case, its subverted and in fact INVERTED.

You are not getting that while ME3's ending does play with a DEM, it isn't one.

And once again, one huge key line that makes the ending NOT a Deus Ex Machina.

"You have altered the variables. The crucible changed me, created new possibilities, but I can't make them happen."

The fact is Shepard interfered with the Catalyst, not the other way around. The crucible is what sets the ending up, not the DEM. It is Shepard that comes out of nowhere to provide the solution to the Catalyst problem of facilitating a peace between organics and synthetics.

To the Catalyst, the Crucible was an enemy device, not a solution to its problem, until the docking of the Crucible to the Citadel. And the Reapers viewed Shepard as an enemy, until the Catalyst realizes he can enact synthesis. Its Shepard that altered the variables of the story, not the Catalyst.

You plainly didn't get it. Shepard's actions conclude the story and end the conflict, not the would have been DEM. Therefore the trope is not only subverted, but inverted,

Modifié par txgoldrush, 28 septembre 2013 - 11:59 .

[Br3admax]

Dafuq are you talking about? The Catalyst tells you what choices you have. It literally lifts you to where it is. It explains the entire story. It is a god among machines. It is a literal Deus Ex Machina. Which apparently you still haven't learned the definition of yet.

[txgoldrush]

Br3ad wrote...

Dafuq are you talking about? The Catalyst tells you what choices you have. It literally lifts you to where it is. It explains the entire story. It is a god among machines. It is a literal Deus Ex Machina. Which apparently you still haven't learned the definition of yet.

The character archetype =/= the literary trope.

The fact is they used the character archetype to SUBVERT and INVERT the literary trope.

[Br3admax]

That is not how the English language works. I suggest that you take a literary class and learn that the definition of words does not change just because the characters says "I need you to make these choices happen." If anything, that makes it even more of a Deus Ex Machina, which you still haven't learned the definition of, despite the fact that we keep telling you.

[txgoldrush]

Br3ad wrote...

That is not how the English language works. I suggest that you take a literary class and learn that the definition of words does not change just because the characters says "I need you to make these choices happen." If anything, that makes it even more of a Deus Ex Machina, which you still haven't learned the definition of, despite the fact that we keep telling you.

You are telling me nothing.

You are not seeing how the trope is being subverted and not played straight.

It is YOU that it trying to force it into a definition it doesn't fit.

And WHY is it subverted?

To show how influential and how significant Shepard is. Not only to help potentially solve or alleviate many of the conflicts that' started before his time, but to help end a cycle that has occurred for billions of years,

Modifié par txgoldrush, 29 septembre 2013 - 12:16 .

[Br3admax]

 Deus Ex Machina:

• an unexpected power or event saving a seemingly hopeless situation, esp. as a contrived plot device in a play or novel.

The English language is forcing this one, not me. You just don't get it. 

Modifié par Br3ad, 29 septembre 2013 - 12:15 .

[Deverz]

The Catalyst was a godlike character revealed in a last minute twist, who then conveniently wraps up the plot for you and presents you with three ways to win the game. Sure sounds like a Deus Ex Machina...

It makes me think it was probably intentional, with the ending concepts being pretty much exactly the same as that of Deus Ex.

I don't know what's worse, that they intentionally made a contrived and silly ending, or they didn't know/care about the Deus Ex Machina and just rolled with it.

[txgoldrush]

Br3ad wrote...

 Deus Ex Machina:

• an unexpected power or event saving a seemingly hopeless situation, esp. as a contrived plot device in a play or novel.

The English language is forcing this one, not me. You just don't get it. 

Which does not fit.

Why?

Because the Catalyst isn't the unexpected event, Shepard and the Crucible are, he tells you this.

Once again.

YOU HAVE ALTERED THE VARIABLES.

Let me ask you this, if it wasn't for the Crucible, does the ending happen? Would the Catalyst help you?

[txgoldrush]

Deverz wrote...

The Catalyst was a godlike character revealed in a last minute twist, who then conveniently wraps up the plot for you and presents you with three ways to win the game. Sure sounds like a Deus Ex Machina...

It makes me think it was probably intentional, with the ending concepts being pretty much exactly the same as that of Deus Ex.

I don't know what's worse, that they intentionally made a contrived and silly ending, or they didn't know/care about the Deus Ex Machina and just rolled with it.

Or they knowingly subverted the Deus Ex Machina to show how important Shepard is in making a potential Deus Ex Machina see that his solution no longer works and is flawed.

[Br3admax]

txgoldrush wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

 Deus Ex Machina:

• an unexpected power or event saving a seemingly hopeless situation, esp. as a contrived plot device in a play or novel.

The English language is forcing this one, not me. You just don't get it. 

Which does not fit.

Why?

Because the Catalyst isn't the unexpected event, Shepard and the Crucible are, he tells you this.

Once again.

YOU HAVE ALTERED THE VARIABLES.

Let me ask you this, if it wasn't for the Crucible, does the ending happen? Would the Catalyst help you?

Let me tell you this. Literally none of that matters in the definition of the word Deus Ex Machina. The Catalyst being an entity is unexpected. No matter what you say, the fact that no one expects anything but the Citadel to be the Catayst show that. Leviathan did not change that. 

[Deverz]

I don't really know what you're arguing for, txgoldrush. At the end of the journey when Shepard collapses and is unable to go forward, the godlike entity comes out of nowhere and literally lifts Shepard up to him, explains the story and lets you save the galaxy. It still sounds like a Deus Ex Machina to me.

[txgoldrush]

Br3ad wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

 Deus Ex Machina:

• an unexpected power or event saving a seemingly hopeless situation, esp. as a contrived plot device in a play or novel.

The English language is forcing this one, not me. You just don't get it. 

Which does not fit.

Why?

Because the Catalyst isn't the unexpected event, Shepard and the Crucible are, he tells you this.

Once again.

YOU HAVE ALTERED THE VARIABLES.

Let me ask you this, if it wasn't for the Crucible, does the ending happen? Would the Catalyst help you?

Let me tell you this. Literally none of that matters in the definition of the word Deus Ex Machina. The Catalyst being an entity is unexpected. No matter what you say, the fact that no one expects anything but the Citadel to be the Catayst show that. Leviathan did not change that. 

You are still not proving anything. All you can prove is that the literary device is played with, not enacted straight.

Here is the thing, the only aspect that is proven to be straight is that the Catalyst is an unexpected entity to the characters and maybe the player, but here is where you cannot prove something, he simply does not solve the problem and relies on Shepard to RESOLVE THE STORY. In fact, he creates a problem and a dilemma, not solves it.

This is where the twist occurs, the subversion of the Deus Ex Machina, the fact that really, the DEM does not resolve the plot.

So in fact, only half your definition fits, Nevermind inverted because Shepard being a solution to the problem is unexpected to the Catalyst as well.

[txgoldrush]

Deverz wrote...

I don't really know what you're arguing for, txgoldrush. At the end of the journey when Shepard collapses and is unable to go forward, the godlike entity comes out of nowhere and literally lifts Shepard up to him, explains the story and lets you save the galaxy. It still sounds like a Deus Ex Machina to me.

Because the potential Deus Ex Machina doesn't solve the problem an din fact provides it, Nevermind it being the main antagonist.

The trope is played with, but not played straight.

[Reorte]

Pressedcat wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Pressedcat wrote...

If the Intelligence was a Deus ex Machina, there would have been no need to build or use the Crucible: at the final moment, just as all hope was lost and the Reapers were on the verge of winning, he simply would have appeared to set the Galaxy to rights, restoring order and peace.

The Crucible plans pretty much do that. The timing isn't quite last-minute but it is "No hope at all, oh look, here's something completely out-of-the-blue with awesome powers that can save us." The Catalyst itself isn't one, it's just a badly thought out dump of dubious exposition.

The discovery of the Crucible plans are convenient (arguably overly so), but I don't really think it qualifies as a Deus ex Machina. I don't think it appears near enough to the end-game, nor does it appear fully formed and ready to save the galaxy. If I was to assign a trope to the Crucible, I would argue that fully formed it most closely corresponds to the 'magical doo-hickey sword' that is the only thing that can kill the big-bad-guy dragon/demon/rabbit. Thus the building of the Crucible becomes some sci-fi variation of the classical hero's quest to retrieve said sword from the mysterious valley of just-challenging-enough-to-teach-the-hero-valuable-lessons-but-not-so-challenging-as-to-prevent-the-hero's-return-at-the-last-moment. You know: that trope...
Not perfectly so, since Shepard does not have to go on this quest personally, but you get my drift.

To me it fulfills all the functions of one even if the mechanics and timing aren't exactly the same as the classical example. For me it's anything that shows up out of the blue to save the heros when they've not got a clue how they can possibly win until then. About the only way of avoiding that is if it's the basic premise of the story, so I suppose it could just sneak out if you consider ME3 entirely independently. Bonus marks go towards anything that relies on magic (space or otherwise) but even though the Catalyst / Crucible has that in spades it's not essential. Some ultra-powerful race that's been hidden from everyone else but uses exactly the same technology would count if they arrived at an all too convenient time.

Anyway, shall we just agree to disagree on this one and get more entertainment by sitting back and watching the rest of this thread?