224 réponses à ce sujet

[Mcfly616]

The Catalyst solves nothing. In fact, it needs you (the player) to solve it's problem. That qualifies as a DEM? Hmm....

[Pressedcat]

A non-acrimonious settlement where we agree to disagree? But, but... that's not how it's meant to be. Best we sit back and see how to do it properly.

Modifié par Pressedcat, 29 septembre 2013 - 12:44 .

[txgoldrush]

Mcfly616 wrote...

The Catalyst solves nothing. In fact, it needs you (the player) to solve it's problem. That qualifies as a DEM? Hmm....

and thus, it fulfills only half the definition, being unexpected to the characters.

And then it does the exact opposite the second half of the definition, resolving the story.

[txgoldrush]

StreetMagic wrote...

I don't think it wants you to solve anything, if it came down to it. It wants you to pick synthesis. That's the solution to everything, as far as it's concerned. For whatever reason, it's powerless enough in that room to protest to other choices though. It can only make you unsure about them.

edit: I've never seen the low EMS endings though, where Synthesis isn't even available...

He is more upset and hostile with low EMS.

I do think that the lower EMS Catalyst scene could be better though, as without synthesis and the options left being destructive, it should be less helpful to Shepard, warning him not to destroy him or the galaxy is destroyed as well.

It didn't set up a Refusal vs. Vaporization argument when it should have. That would be fitting for those with low EMS.

[KaiserShep]

Pressedcat wrote...

A non-acrimonious settlement where we agree to disagree? But, but... that's not how it's meant to be. Best we sit back and see how to do it properly.

Are you not entertained? Is that not why we are here?? 

[Deverz]

Mcfly616 wrote...

The Catalyst solves nothing. In fact, it needs you (the player) to solve it's problem. That qualifies as a DEM? Hmm....

What do you mean he solves nothing? If he hadn't raised Shepard up on that elevator the story would've ended right then and there, and the cycle would've continued.

[Mcfly616]

StreetMagic wrote...

I don't think it wants you to solve anything, if it came down to it. It wants you to pick synthesis. That's the solution to everything, as far as it's concerned. For whatever reason, it's powerless enough in that room to protest to other choices though. It can only make you unsure about them.

edit: I've never seen the low EMS endings though, where Synthesis isn't even available...

regardless of how it feels about Synthesis, it still acknowledges that Shepard/The Crucible have rendered its methods obsolete.

[Mcfly616]

Deverz wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

The Catalyst solves nothing. In fact, it needs you (the player) to solve it's problem. That qualifies as a DEM? Hmm....

What do you mean he solves nothing? If he hadn't raised Shepard up on that elevator the story would've ended right then and there, and the cycle would've continued.

keeping the protagonist alive for whatever reason, doesnt make it a DEM. And just the same, if Shepard doesn't choose, the cycle continues.


The Catalyst didn't create the choices. They aren't its choices. It merely explains them to you.

Modifié par Mcfly616, 29 septembre 2013 - 12:56 .

[txgoldrush]

Deverz wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

The Catalyst solves nothing. In fact, it needs you (the player) to solve it's problem. That qualifies as a DEM? Hmm....

What do you mean he solves nothing? If he hadn't raised Shepard up on that elevator the story would've ended right then and there, and the cycle would've continued.

But the cycle was proven obsolete when Shepard helped dock the Crucible to the Citadel, thus making the Catalyst raise the elevator for Shepard.

The elevator is raised because Shepard and the rest of the galaxy did something. In fact, the elevator is raised because Shepard is the solution to the cycle.

[Deverz]

Mcfly616 wrote...

Deverz wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

The Catalyst solves nothing. In fact, it needs you (the player) to solve it's problem. That qualifies as a DEM? Hmm....

What do you mean he solves nothing? If he hadn't raised Shepard up on that elevator the story would've ended right then and there, and the cycle would've continued.

keeping the protagonist alive for whatever reason, doesnt make it a DEM. And just the same, if Shepard doesn't choose, the cycle continues.

The definition is "An unexpected power or event saving a seemingly hopeless situation". Which is exactly what happened. The Crucible is not firing and Shepard collapses on the floor. Then the Catalyst lifts him up, and only then is Shepard able to win, because the unexpected power allowed him to..

I still think it sounds like DEM.

[Reorte]

Pressedcat wrote...

A non-acrimonious settlement where we agree to disagree? But, but... that's not how it's meant to be. Best we sit back and see how to do it properly.

Yeah, sorry. It's just no fun arguing with someone who's disagreeing without sounding like a jerk

[txgoldrush]

Deverz wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

Deverz wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

The Catalyst solves nothing. In fact, it needs you (the player) to solve it's problem. That qualifies as a DEM? Hmm....

What do you mean he solves nothing? If he hadn't raised Shepard up on that elevator the story would've ended right then and there, and the cycle would've continued.

keeping the protagonist alive for whatever reason, doesnt make it a DEM. And just the same, if Shepard doesn't choose, the cycle continues.

The definition is "An unexpected power or event saving a seemingly hopeless situation". Which is exactly what happened. The Crucible is not firing and Shepard collapses on the floor. Then the Catalyst lifts him up, and only then is Shepard able to win, because the unexpected power allowed him to..

I still think it sounds like DEM.

However, you are seeing only that part, and not the whole entire ending. There is more to the ending than just the elevator ride, but you don't use it because it simply doesn't support your case.

The Catalyst lifts him up because the Crucible got docked. It was the result.

Only one half of the definition is satisfied here. Shepard solves the problem, not the Catalyst.

[Tron Mega]

whats the point in trying to connect the dots between ME3s ending, and it being a deus ex machina? its almost as pointless as argueing what an RPG is.

ME3s ending deserves an entirely new label to define its awfulness.

i just call it bioware bein bioware.

Modifié par Tron Mega, 29 septembre 2013 - 01:37 .

[David7204]

The Catalyst is absolutely not a DEM.

It would only be so if the audience considered the situation to be hopeless. And that clearly isn't the case. Nobody in their right mind is going to immediately think the Crucible is worthless because it doesn't immediately activate and save the day. Everybody knows the Crucible is going to do something, somehow. 

Not to mention the very extensive foreshadowing that both the Citadel and Crucible had unknown pieces and functions to them.

If you want to complain about DEMs, complain about the Crucible, not the Catalyst. Because this isn't valid.

Modifié par David7204, 29 septembre 2013 - 01:44 .

[dreamgazer]

Tron Mega wrote...

whats the point in trying to connect the dots between ME3s ending, and it being a deus ex machina? its almost as pointless as argueing what an RPG is.

ME3s ending deserves an entirely new label to define its awfulness.

i just call it bioware bein bioware.

Pretty much, considering ME1 had its own "deus ex machina" in the form of Vigil and its data packet, coupled with the outlandishness of the Conduit's reveal.  Not a first for the series. 

[David7204]

The conduit is also not a DEM. That is just silly.

Do people even know what a DEM is? Because apparently, people here think it means 'something new that solves a problem.' Which is not the case at all.

Modifié par David7204, 29 septembre 2013 - 01:47 .

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

The conduit is also not a DEM. That is just silly.

Do people even know what a DEM is? Because apparently, people here think it means 'something new that solves a problem.' Which is not the case at all.

Yep, and in that particular sentence, I wasn't saying the Conduit was a DEM.  

Though it does have its own convenient plot-resolving properties. 

[David7204]

The Conduit is not a DEM. Vigil is not a DEM. The data packet is not a DEM. And none of them have any 'plot resolving' properties in a negative sense.

[AresKeith]

David7204 wrote...

The Conduit is not a DEM. Vigil is not a DEM. The data packet is not a DEM. And none of them have any 'plot resolving' properties in a negative sense.

Hit a nerve?

[txgoldrush]

David7204 wrote...

The Conduit is not a DEM. Vigil is not a DEM. The data packet is not a DEM. And none of them have any 'plot resolving' properties in a negative sense.

Actually the data packet was a DEM, but here is a case where DEM isn't always bad.

As much as the Vigil sequence was DEM, it was still one of the best scenes in the series and the DEM thematically set up the Crucible.

Games like FFVI and Earthbound had extremely well done Deus Ex Machinas.

[David7204]

It's not a DEM.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

J. Reezy wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

David7204 wrote...

The Conduit is not a DEM. Vigil is not a DEM. The data packet is not a DEM. And none of them have any 'plot resolving' properties in a negative sense.

Hit a nerve?

Probably. Doesn't everything hit a nerve?

Having an opinion that he doesn't agree with? I hit a nerve.

[dreamgazer]

txgoldrush wrote...

Actually the data packet was a DEM, but here is a case where DEM isn't always bad.

As much as the Vigil sequence was DEM, it was still one of the best scenes in the series and the DEM thematically set up the Crucible.

Had to strike through a bit, but I agree with the above. 

The conversation with Vigil remains my favorite sequence in the series, the thing that "hooked" me.