224 réponses à ce sujet

[Reorte]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

The Catalyst solves nothing

At the start of Priority Earth we had Big Dumb Object which we hoped would allow us to defeat the Reapers but no one has any clue how it might be used; we are also out of time - the Reapers are shooting at out doomsday weapon right now, and we have literally minutes before they win. The only guy to make it to the Citadel is near enough to death and never had a clue how to operate the doomsday weapon to begin with.

Then the big bad appears and hands us the missing piece we need to activate our otherwise completely useless doomsday weapon. Yeah, totally not a DEM.
Shepard really earned having the big bad hand him victory for no reason at all.

The problem with that is that there wasn't anything before then to indicate there was a problem - stick the Crucible on to the Citadel and press some button somewhere. As a DEM the Catalyst (as in Starbrat) only solves a problem that was just created. It's the Crucible as a whole that has a DEM role even if it doesn't suddenly appear right at the end. If it's not last second appearance discounts it as a DEM then it still shares all the features of one that make them annoying in a story.

[AlexMBrennan]

The problem with that is that there wasn't anything before then to indicate there was a problem

So, you don't consider no one having any clue how to use the doomsday weapon (or what it actually does) when it's time to use it a problem?
The plan is basically "Go to the Citadel and hope for a miracle"

[txgoldrush]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

The Catalyst solves nothing

At the start of Priority Earth we had Big Dumb Object which we hoped would allow us to defeat the Reapers but no one has any clue how it might be used; we are also out of time - the Reapers are shooting at out doomsday weapon right now, and we have literally minutes before they win. The only guy to make it to the Citadel is near enough to death and never had a clue how to operate the doomsday weapon to begin with.

Then the big bad appears and hands us the missing piece we need to activate our otherwise completely useless doomsday weapon. Yeah, totally not a DEM.
Shepard really earned having the big bad hand him victory for no reason at all.

"You have altered the variables"

"The Crucible changed me, created new possibilities, but I can't make them happen"

"If there is to be a new solution, you must act"

Sorry, but the Catalyst GIVES you the reason why he is helping you.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 29 septembre 2013 - 10:39 .

[KaiserShep]

Too bad he asked for help from the wrong person. To quote Homer Simpson: "Oh I'll help you. Help you die!"

[AlexMBrennan]

Sorry, but the Catalyst GIVES you the reason why he is helping you.

I was referring to Destroy - starbrat explicitly tells Shepard that destroying the Reapers will not solve the problem, yet he lets Shepard do it anyway; Shepard can try to persuade him but starbrat isn't swayed by Shepard's argument... but lets us pick destroy anyway... because the creator of Elder Space Gods who witnessed millions of civilisations rise and fall is in awe of Shepderp's superior insight... which he disagrees with. Yeah, that's not at all contrived.

[Br3admax]

Too bad none of that changed anything about Alex's statement in the slightest.

[Reorte]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

The problem with that is that there wasn't anything before then to indicate there was a problem

So, you don't consider no one having any clue how to use the doomsday weapon (or what it actually does) when it's time to use it a problem?
The plan is basically "Go to the Citadel and hope for a miracle"

It's about on par with all sorts of other things that happen with dubious reasons for being able to. At least we've some idea of what it's supposed to do unlike, for example, the Conduit. Then there's all those Collector doors and platforms that Shepard & Co. had no trouble operating. Anyway it's not as if the Catalyst itself does anything except move Shepard into the right spot. Before that he pressed some buttons and nothing happened, after that he went and did something suicidal and it worked. The problem was merely one of being in the right place and therefore arguably no different from any other mission where something might say "Go to this point to activate this." 

[txgoldrush]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Sorry, but the Catalyst GIVES you the reason why he is helping you.

I was referring to Destroy - starbrat explicitly tells Shepard that destroying the Reapers will not solve the problem, yet he lets Shepard do it anyway; Shepard can try to persuade him but starbrat isn't swayed by Shepard's argument... but lets us pick destroy anyway... because the creator of Elder Space Gods who witnessed millions of civilisations rise and fall is in awe of Shepderp's superior insight... which he disagrees with. Yeah, that's not at all contrived.

He states that he is bound by the options the Crucible allows....once again, in the narrative.

Although he will say this for lower EMS players who reject his choices.

[Podge 90]

Mcfly616 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

The Catalyst solves nothing. In fact, it needs you (the player) to solve it's problem. That qualifies as a DEM? Hmm....

As I recall, it does solve its own problem. It just needs you to implement its solution.

no it didn't. Not even close. Just because it knows what the solution to it's problem is, doesn't mean it knows how to achieve it. Shepard and the Crucible make synthesis a possibility. Not the Catalyst.

*Watches Shepard fire wildly at the tube*

Catalyst:...Why didn't I think of that?

[Redbelle]

Podge 90 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

The Catalyst solves nothing. In fact, it needs you (the player) to solve it's problem. That qualifies as a DEM? Hmm....

As I recall, it does solve its own problem. It just needs you to implement its solution.

no it didn't. Not even close. Just because it knows what the solution to it's problem is, doesn't mean it knows how to achieve it. Shepard and the Crucible make synthesis a possibility. Not the Catalyst.

*Watches Shepard fire wildly at the tube*

Catalyst:...Why didn't I think of that?

Cat.... "Hmmmm. Three options and a coin. Clearly my decision making aid is outdated technology.

Background Shepard.... "I refuuuuse"!

Cat..... "DAMN YOU SHEPAAARD"!

[Redbelle]

txgoldrush wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

The Catalyst solves nothing

At the start of Priority Earth we had Big Dumb Object which we hoped would allow us to defeat the Reapers but no one has any clue how it might be used; we are also out of time - the Reapers are shooting at out doomsday weapon right now, and we have literally minutes before they win. The only guy to make it to the Citadel is near enough to death and never had a clue how to operate the doomsday weapon to begin with.

Then the big bad appears and hands us the missing piece we need to activate our otherwise completely useless doomsday weapon. Yeah, totally not a DEM.
Shepard really earned having the big bad hand him victory for no reason at all.

"You have altered the variables"

"The Crucible changed me, created new possibilities, but I can't make them happen"

"If there is to be a new solution, you must act"

Sorry, but the Catalyst GIVES you the reason why he is helping you.

Shepard.... "Yeah, yeah those are all  great.... But how do I kill just the Reapers"?

Cat... "No! You Can't"!

Shep.... Stop being a baby and tell me"!

Cat.... "You can't you can''t you can't"!

Shep.... "Look. I came here with a very specific goal in mind"....

Cat.... "I won't let yooooou"!

Shep.... <mutters> "Why am I even listening to this kid? Joker! Get the team over here! We've got work to do"!

[AlexMBrennan]

Joker! Get the team over here! We've got work to do"!

...
I thought the whole point of Priority: Earth is that we can't use spaceships? Thus the contrived landwar in Asia finale?

[Redbelle]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Joker! Get the team over here! We've got work to do"!

...
I thought the whole point of Priority: Earth is that we can't use spaceships? Thus the contrived landwar in Asia finale?

Seeing as Shepard was on the citadel and had just opened the Citadel arms at the time, Spaceships are allowed. They are in space at the time.

[o Ventus]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Joker! Get the team over here! We've got work to do"!

...
I thought the whole point of Priority: Earth is that we can't use spaceships? Thus the contrived landwar in Asia finale?

After the Hades cannon, there's no reason why air craft can't be used to get to the beam. You even see fighters in the sky, they just aren't doing anything.

But I admit I didn't know London was in Asia.

[Br3admax]

I think he's trying to make a play on the fact that fighting husks in London is similar to being swarmed by a great number of enemy soldiers, with no end, and that the terrain is too difficult to traverse and such comparisons, as in the saying, "Never fight a land war in Asia," which is for these reasons. I don't agree necessarily with the comparison, but that's what it sounds like.

Modifié par Br3ad, 30 septembre 2013 - 01:09 .

[Reorte]

o Ventus wrote...

But I admit I didn't know London was in Asia.

Sounds like a Princess Bride reference ("Never get involved in a land war in Asia" being one of the classic blunders).

[txgoldrush]

o Ventus wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Joker! Get the team over here! We've got work to do"!

...
I thought the whole point of Priority: Earth is that we can't use spaceships? Thus the contrived landwar in Asia finale?

After the Hades cannon, there's no reason why air craft can't be used to get to the beam. You even see fighters in the sky, they just aren't doing anything.

But I admit I didn't know London was in Asia.

Yes there is a reason why aircraft can't approach the beam. Its called a Reaper Destroyer.

Plot hole isn't there. Stop trying to make one up.

[o Ventus]

txgoldrush wrote...

Yes there is a reason why aircraft can't approach the beam. Its called a Reaper Destroyer.

A Reaper Destroyer that has only one gun (unlike the Capital Ships and their tentacle guns) and a highly exploitable weakness. A weakness that it must expose in order to attack, no less. That Destroyer is about as much a threat as an unlaced shoe, especially when a ship the size of the Normandy can break off from the dogfighting and come down to the planet's surface. Not to mention the fighters that are already stationed down on the surface.

Plot hole isn't there. Stop trying to make one up.

You'll have to point out to me where I said that this is a plot hole.

[Redbelle]

txgoldrush wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Joker! Get the team over here! We've got work to do"!

...
I thought the whole point of Priority: Earth is that we can't use spaceships? Thus the contrived landwar in Asia finale?

After the Hades cannon, there's no reason why air craft can't be used to get to the beam. You even see fighters in the sky, they just aren't doing anything.

But I admit I didn't know London was in Asia.

Yes there is a reason why aircraft can't approach the beam. Its called a Reaper Destroyer.

Plot hole isn't there. Stop trying to make one up.

Can I just say that the context that started this tree was that Shepard was talking to Joker...... On the Citadel!

I don't know why someone went off on a tangent.... but seeing as how the evac scene came to be.... I'm just going to say that the top quote is *cut*. Started off as a joke And shouldn't be taken to seriously.

Modifié par Redbelle, 30 septembre 2013 - 08:54 .

[Wevein]

I think people are way over analysing.

What I see here is kinda like art critics, each have a different indeepth idea about what the artist is trying to convey through their painting. Without asking the artist what he was trying to convey, each indeepth idea is just speculation. Davinci propably used the 'let me paint you Lisa Gherardini' line to get her up into his studio to do the hanky panky. Unless we ask Davinci why he painted it, what was he trying to convey or he wrote it down in his diary somewhere, every idea is just speculation.

Im not trying to start or continue an argument, all im saying is get the writer/s to explain it. If they wont, then everyone is free to see it how they like, no one is right or wrong. The fact that the vast majority of fans don't particularly like the ending or the ending's choices shows the ending wasn't terribly fantastic. Kind of a let down considering the bar the story set itself from the start (ME1).

Shoot me down, do what ever :-) it doesn't matter, I love Mass Effect and will play the next one even though I didn't agree with how they finished it!


Edit: missed a few words

Modifié par Wevein, 01 octobre 2013 - 05:34 .

[AlexMBrennan]

After the Hades cannon, there's no reason why air craft can't be used to get to the beam. You even see fighters in the sky, they just aren't doing anything.

Sorry, I thought you wanted to take the Normandy to the Citadel.

[txgoldrush]

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Yes there is a reason why aircraft can't approach the beam. Its called a Reaper Destroyer.

A Reaper Destroyer that has only one gun (unlike the Capital Ships and their tentacle guns) and a highly exploitable weakness. A weakness that it must expose in order to attack, no less. That Destroyer is about as much a threat as an unlaced shoe, especially when a ship the size of the Normandy can break off from the dogfighting and come down to the planet's surface. Not to mention the fighters that are already stationed down on the surface.

Plot hole isn't there. Stop trying to make one up.

You'll have to point out to me where I said that this is a plot hole.

Sorry, you a grasping at straws to try to make this into a plot hole.

First off, the Destroyer beam can hit many targets, so it can hit multiple air targets in one go.

Second, the exploitable weakness needs serious firepower to be exploited. This is what Shepard does.

They can't get anywhere near the beam as long as the Destroyer is guarding it, sorry, but its in the narrative.

[KaiserShep]

Turian fighters were able to swarm around a destroyer, distracting it long enough for Shepard to actually get by underfoot, all while fighting brutes, to get to the maw hammers. In the narrative, it's possible to get by the reaper so long as its attention is focused elsewhere, even if it stomping around makes the path considerably more perilous. In any case, it seems to me that the beam interference bit is inconsistent, because other vehicles, even aircraft, seem capable of operating just fine on the final approach to the beam. Gunships are seen flying around as Harbinger is shooting everything, and even the Normandy is able to approach it without much issue at all, so what happened to the beam's interference there?

The reaper destroyers are at a significant disadvantage compared to the capital ships. If a vehicle is fast enough, it's possible to constantly avoid that beam of theirs, since they cannot quickly fire in all directions, but instead have to reposition themselves entirely.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 01 octobre 2013 - 11:41 .

[o Ventus]

txgoldrush wrote...

Sorry, you a grasping at straws to try to make this into a plot hole.

Even though I all but said it isn't a plot hole.

First off, the Destroyer beam can hit many targets, so it can hit multiple air targets in one go.

Sure, assuming the ships it's aiming at are all lined up single-file, or they all deliberate fly into the Reaper gun. The body of the Destroyer isn't on a swivel. It can't just aim without turning its entire body around.

Second, the exploitable weakness needs serious firepower to be exploited. This is what Shepard does.

Which every single ship in the galaxy has, whether it be via mass accelerators or Thanix cannons. Both of these being infinitely more viable than rocket-propelled missiles. Don't make me explain why.

They can't get anywhere near the beam as long as the Destroyer is guarding it, sorry, but its in the narrative.

Except it's not. Nobody even mentions the possibility of sending aircraft against the Destroyer. You're the one grasping at straws.

Modifié par o Ventus, 01 octobre 2013 - 03:22 .

[Br3admax]

Reorte wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

But I admit I didn't know London was in Asia.

Sounds like a Princess Bride reference ("Never get involved in a land war in Asia" being one of the classic blunders).

Actually it orginally came from General Douglas MacArthur.