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David Gaider: I don’t think we’ve ever presented the idea of a mage revolution as being the best answer with an obviously good resolution.


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#1
Senya

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Confession: Unlike in Asunder, I think the
games make it too easy for fans to brush aside how dangerous magic is,
how much society fears mages, and how mages require special training
because they really aren’t like other people. I hope Inquisition does
better at showing how difficult this situation is so half-cocked plans
about revolution aren’t automatically assumed as the correct answer,
even though the circles are broken. The complexity here is far more
interesting than simplistic ideas of mage freedom.

I don’t think we’ve ever presented the idea of a mage revolution as
being the best answer with an obviously good resolution. There are,
however, a couple of things which complicate this.
First, the segregation between lore and gameplay. It’s something
we’ve been trying to address, but ultimately a player mage (or the mages
in the player’s party) don’t really encounter the same issues that
mages at large do. They don’t get tricked or overtaken by demons, they
don’t lose control of their powers or get tempted… or, when it’s a party
member who does, some just assume it to be the result of rashness or
stupidity. Which is not a completely unreasonable conclusion,
considering the player mage never has those difficulties and can always
opt out of such a situation by simple choice.
Could we force such difficulties on the player? We could, and perhaps
it will come to that. That’s an issue of agency, however, which relates
to gameplay. It’s the same reason that player Templars didn’t need to
be addicted to lyrium, or how non-Warden party members in DAO happened
to never contract the Blight despite repeated close encounters with
darkspawn. Lucky them!
It’s something we’ve discussed (and are discussing), but the needs of
gameplay aren’t easily dismissed— unless the story actually centers on
the issue (as in the plot revolves around it, as in Asunder) it’s
difficult to have issues like this meaningfully impact the player.
The second issue, however, is that notions of freedom are pretty
deeply rooted in players— particularly those who live in western
societies. We have the characters and world around the player espouse
the issues and prejudices inherent in the conflict, but I suspect that
even if we did have these things affect the player more personally the
attitude among many would still default to freedom being good and
oppression being bad. No matter what.
Is this a simplistic way of looking at it? Possibly. Part of the
problem, in my mind, is how people equate this to issues of oppression
in the real world— which is fine, as that’s an intended analogy, except
that many appear to either forget or dismiss the differences. People in
the real world don’t throw fireballs, accidentally turn into
abominations, or make deals with demons. It’s more like a gun control
issue— if there were people with guns that could go off and kill
innocents by accident, and who couldn’t be disarmed without a lobotomy.
The idea that society wouldn’t try to protect itself, even if incidents
were statistically rare, ignores how society reacts to problems in the
real world… even ones that don’t involve fireballs and abominations.
Why would they do that? Because mages aren’t guns, they’re people.
And it’s far easier to sympathize with the jailed than the jailors—
particularly when the cause of the jailors is fueled by righteousness.
The fact the jailors’ attitude has an understandable cause doesn’t mean
it’s likeable, or excuse the prejudices it has led to. One could say
there are historical (and current) precedents in Thedas as to why mages
being free would just lead to all sorts of badness… but not everyone
pays heed to history. It could always be different this time.
Or could it? That’s the nature of the debate, both in-world and out.
I find it a bit strange that one of the most frequent questions I’m
PM’d with is which side of the mage-templar issue I personally support.
The answer, of course, is that I support neither… or, rather, I support
both. I have to wrap my head around both sides, because if I can’t
construct an argument to support a side that a rational person could
make, then it’s not a very good argument. Thankfully I can, so there I
stand.
I imagine many won’t believe that, preferring to believe I lean
towards one side or the other— colored by their own preferences, just as
those preferences color how they look on the arguments of others. And
that’s fine.
I look forward to showing what we’re doing in Inquisition— though if
one were to assume that the entire story of Inquisition revolves around
“the mage-templar issue”, they would be incorrect. It’s a big piece (as
one would rightly expect), but there’s far more going on. Just FYI.


dgaider.tumblr.com/

Now that's what I was looking for! I was getting tired of one of the central conflicts in the Dragon Age universe being too simple. Mage Revolution just seems too cliche.

Bring on the Greyness I've come to expect, Bioware. B)

Modifié par almostinsane99, 30 septembre 2013 - 03:41 .


#2
Master Warder Z_

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I was hoping that this wouldn't be a black vs white conflict; With the Mages being looked upon as innocents and infallible while the Templars a stupidly evil and contorted faction much like Cerberus in ME 3.

I want both sides to have something of a middling group, for both to have supporters and detractors because its a matter of perspective and view and i am glad Bioware is going to treat the Mage Vs Templar war as such.

I am firmly within the Templar camp, my side was chosen before Asunder but that said i am hoping that all perspectives will have glimmers of something beyond this conflict to them.

#3
Sylvius the Mad

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I really appreciate that David has a nuanced view of the issue, but I do think that he's discounting the possibility that those who support mage freedom do recognise the social costs of the freedom, and are simply willing to pay them.

If one values mage freedom more than one values the social welfare of non-mages, then it makes perfect sense to risk that welfare (or even destroy it completely) in pursuit of mage freedom.

As David says, that mages are people clouds the issue considerably. But it becomes much clearer if the mages stop viewing non-mages as people.

#4
WoolyJoe

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"Mage Revolution just seems too cliche"?
I don't think I've ever come across a 'mage revolution' before, so I'm not sure it's a cliché...

I do agree, though. I hope BioWare manage to maintain a level of moral ambiguity with Inquisition - Not that I believe/-ed they wouldn't! I'm still conflicted about a bunch of stuff from the previous two instalments... So I don't see why they'd falter too much now

But hey, whatever. Bring on the grey.

#5
Wulfram

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Firstly, what you quote was not written by Mr Gaider I believe. He got it off tumblr and then posted stuff in response.

Bioware spent large chunks of DA2 hammering us on the head with "MAGES ARE DANGEROUS" and "TEVINTER IS EVIL BECAUSE MAGES" messages. I hope this isn't repeated in DAI.

Thinking that both sides have a point is still very much taking a view, and it's not very fun having the game spend it's time beating it into us because they think our western biases stop us from understanding the issue properly or whatever.

#6
ManchesterUnitedFan1

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My eyes

MY EYES

#7
Morristair

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I'm glad that Inquisition isn't going to center around the Mage vs. Templar thing (cough Dragon Age 2 cough). I've seen the trailers and such, and it looks there's so much more to the story.

The way I see it, as long as the Circle is run like it is in Ferelden, mages have nothing to complain about. They aren't free, but at least it's not as bad as the Circle in Kirkwall. I can honestly say that I see both sides of the issue, but I'll still always support mages in the game. Provided they aren't slitting their wrists and rampaging through the streets, of course.

#8
Gileadan

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Wow, that was a good read. Very encouraging, too.

Thanks for posting, OP.

#9
Uccio

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Mage revolution is not a cliche. In fact it is kind of reversed andrastian overthroving of current powers.

#10
Master Warder Z_

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Ukki wrote...

Mage revolution is not a cliche. In fact it is kind of reversed andrastian overthroving of current powers.


Or the Restablishment of the system that was torn by Andraste.

#11
Thunderfox

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Wulfram wrote...

Firstly, what you quote was not written by Mr Gaider I believe. He got it off tumblr and then posted stuff in response.
.


For clarifactionThe Confession part was not written by David, he on occastion replies to this "DaConfession Meme" on his tumblr. Everthing in the second(bigger) quote bubble is by him hower

Modifié par ThunderfoxF, 29 septembre 2013 - 09:18 .


#12
Guest_Craig Golightly_*

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WoolyJoe wrote...

"Mage Revolution just seems too cliche"?
I don't think I've ever come across a 'mage revolution' before, so I'm not sure it's a cliché...


Revolution is quite common in fiction, just as in real life.

The concept of a "mage revolution" reminds me of X-Men.

#13
PinkysPain

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What more are the devs supposed to do? You can't walk 5 steps in these games without finding a mage turning into an abomination. The games absolutely scream "This world is grim derp, it's not a moral universe in which human rights can be respected".

I feel what people like OP are really complaining about is that players aren't punished heavily enough for not playing it like we "should". We play it like D&D good characters, non contextually good, we know evil when we see it and we fight it ... and he wants us to be punished for it, ground down under the wheels of grim derp until we are ready to capture the mages and put them in the circle to preserve the world.

You could have every mage in the game into an abomination, you could have cutscenes where my protagonist loses controls and eats babies ... and I'll still support the revolution ... I'll not be ground down.

Modifié par PinkysPain, 29 septembre 2013 - 09:37 .


#14
Reofeir

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MasterScribe wrote...

WoolyJoe wrote...

"Mage Revolution just seems too cliche"?
I don't think I've ever come across a 'mage revolution' before, so I'm not sure it's a cliché...


Revolution is quite common in fiction, just as in real life.

The concept of a "mage revolution" reminds me of X-Men.

Life is cliche. :wizard:

#15
Potato Cat

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Zenor wrote...

MasterScribe wrote...

WoolyJoe wrote...

"Mage Revolution just seems too cliche"?
I don't think I've ever come across a 'mage revolution' before, so I'm not sure it's a cliché...


Revolution is quite common in fiction, just as in real life.

The concept of a "mage revolution" reminds me of X-Men.

Life is cliche. :wizard:


All these characters are alive? Pffftt, how original.

#16
Amirit

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There is one thing strongly supporting mage side - existence of Tevinter Empire. Full of mages yet still standing, far from turning into abomination heaven.

As for additional difficulty - if you played NWN2, your character got that "hunger" that you HAD to satisfy or disaster would happen. Lyrium addiction could work the same way. Or fighting the daemons.
Though I thing most of the players would find such thing annoying and search for the hack to remove it.

#17
Xilizhra

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Unsurprising.

#18
Thunderfox

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Amirit wrote...

There is one thing strongly supporting mage side - existence of Tevinter Empire. Full of mages yet still standing, far from turning into abomination heaven.

As for additional difficulty - if you played NWN2, your character got that "hunger" that you HAD to satisfy or disaster would happen. Lyrium addiction could work the same way. Or fighting the daemons.
Though I thing most of the players would find such thing annoying and search for the hack to remove it.


Also full of slavery and blood magic. Just as oppressive, but in the total opposite direction. Now obviously its not completely full of Black Hats, but still it provides another real and tangible example of why the average Thedosians fear of magic is justified.

#19
Wulfram

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Amirit wrote...

There is one thing strongly supporting mage side - existence of Tevinter Empire. Full of mages yet still standing, far from turning into abomination heaven.


But it is ludicrously evil.

I got the impression its evilness got played up in DA2 because people kept using it as an example of mage freedom not necessarily being bad after DA:O.

#20
Xilizhra

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ThunderfoxF wrote...

Amirit wrote...

There is one thing strongly supporting mage side - existence of Tevinter Empire. Full of mages yet still standing, far from turning into abomination heaven.

As for additional difficulty - if you played NWN2, your character got that "hunger" that you HAD to satisfy or disaster would happen. Lyrium addiction could work the same way. Or fighting the daemons.
Though I thing most of the players would find such thing annoying and search for the hack to remove it.


Also full of slavery and blood magic. Just as oppressive, but in the total opposite direction. Now obviously its not completely full of Black Hats, but still it provides another real and tangible example of why the average Thedosians fear of magic is justified.

No it doesn't. Magic is just a tool used by the magisters in the pursuit of tyranny; it's not the cause of tyranny.

#21
Navasha

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ThunderfoxF wrote...

Amirit wrote...

There is one thing strongly supporting mage side - existence of Tevinter Empire. Full of mages yet still standing, far from turning into abomination heaven.

Also full of slavery and blood magic. Just as oppressive, but in the total opposite direction. Now obviously its not completely full of Black Hats, but still it provides another real and tangible example of why the average Thedosians fear of magic is justified.


Then to make players somewhat hardened against mages and magic, they really need to show us what Tevinter is really like.   Perhaps a future game there if inquisition doesn't solve the mage/Templar conflict. 

Honestly, being told what Tevinter is like from the mouth of Fenris is hardly that convincing about how "evil" it might be.    His blind anger and hatred for any mage or anything magical hardly made him an unbiased witness to 'truth'.  

My 'western bias' will always have me favoring the oppressed over the oppressors.    The introduction of lyrium addiction made me at least somewhat sympathetic to the Templars as they are controlled by the Chantry.    In fact, a Templar willing to stand up against Chantry control to prevent the abuses of the mages would likely be a very sympathetic character for me. 

#22
Herr Uhl

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I really appreciate that David has a nuanced view of the issue, but I do think that he's discounting the possibility that those who support mage freedom do recognise the social costs of the freedom, and are simply willing to pay them.

If one values mage freedom more than one values the social welfare of non-mages, then it makes perfect sense to risk that welfare (or even destroy it completely) in pursuit of mage freedom.

As David says, that mages are people clouds the issue considerably. But it becomes much clearer if the mages stop viewing non-mages as people.


I don't think he is discounting it, but if he is to make the mage issue an interesting plot, there has to be more than people being oppressed for no reason.

Since he is the lead writer, he has to provide what he sees as compelling arguments for both sides. Whether you agree with either side is irrelevant to his need to give both sides arguments.

Edit: Btw Xilizhra, I assume you're aware of how that tactic paid off for Karl XII?

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 29 septembre 2013 - 11:01 .


#23
iOnlySignIn

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You can't possibly logically establish how a group of people "really aren’t like other people" because they manifest a recessive genetic trait.

Simply put, if ~10% of Humans in Thedas are Mages, then another ~40% besides them would carry Magic in their blood. If you treat the 10% as "really aren’t like other people" it brings into question what should you do with the other 40%.

#24
Herr Uhl

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iOnlySignIn wrote...

You can't possibly logically establish how a group of people "really aren’t like other people" because they manifest a recessive genetic trait.

Simply put, if ~10% of Humans in Thedas are Mages, then another ~40% besides them would carry Magic in their blood. If you treat the 10% as "really aren’t like other people" it brings into question what should you do with the other 40%.


This is assuming it is a recessive genetic trait bound to a single gene. The ability to throw fireballs is enough to differentiate from "other people" in any case.

#25
LobselVith8

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ThunderfoxF wrote...

Also full of slavery and blood magic.


Well, I think you can condemn their enslavement of mages and non-mages in Tevinter, but I don't think blood magic is automatically bad.

ThunderfoxF wrote...

Just as oppressive, but in the total opposite direction. Now obviously its not completely full of Black Hats, but still it provides another real and tangible example of why the average Thedosians fear of magic is justified. 


The Dalish, the Rivaini, the Avvar, and the Chasind don't hold the same view of magic as Andrastians do; I'm fairly certain the religious teachings of the Chantry of Andraste on magic plays a significant role in how Andrastians view magic and mages.