2497 réponses à ce sujet

[CynicalShep]

Rolling Flame wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

No, I haven't conceded the point. If you think being mind-controlled is worse than a bunch of other awful things that can happen to you, then that's your prerogative. I maintain that they're roughly on par with each other.

losing control of your actions and being puppeted by someone else is a pretty terrible thing my friend. Many would argue that it is worse than death.

Keep in mind that the mage is also using your blood to dictate your movement. That would not be a pleasant feeling.

That concerns me significantly less than what that demon would make me do. As much as I love living there are quite a few things I'd rather die than have to do.

[Laughing_Man]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
"Much better" isn't good enough.

It will have to be.

There are no perfect solutions and mages sometimes suffering from abuse of pwoer is no differentthan anyone else sometimes suffering from abuse of power. Abuse of power will AWLAYS happen.
Perfect systems don't exist, especially not in medieval societies. You can only work to recude it.

Your way of thinking it extremist to the extreeme.
"A police officer murder a guy and got away with it because there was no evidence! KIL ALL THE POLICE!"

This is laughable.
The fact that abuse of power might happen anyway means that you should support the current corrupt regime?...

There are no perfect solutions, but there might just be a few *better* solutions, solutions that don't leave one side dead or enslaved.

[Lotion Soronarr]

TheRedVipress wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
"Much better" isn't good enough.

It will have to be.

There are no perfect solutions and mages sometimes suffering from abuse of power is no differentthan anyone else sometimes suffering from abuse of power. Abuse of power will AWLAYS happen.
Perfect systems don't exist, especially not in medieval societies. You can only work to recude it.

Your way of thinking it extremist to the extreeme.
"A police officer murder a guy and got away with it because there was no evidence! KIL ALL THE POLICE!"

This is laughable.
The fact that abuse of power might happen anyway means that you should support the current corrupt regime?...

There are no perfect solutions, but there might just be a few *better* solutions, solutions that don't leave one side dead or enslaved.

No, not might.. *WILL*. It is inevitable.
You cannot stop it all. Abuse sometimes happening is not an indication of a corupt regime.

Plaintiff clearly mentioned the Ferelden circle and that mage that was killed. Out in the forest. By a templar. With no witnesses. And complains how corrupt the templars are becasue of it.
Which is silly. Because there's no practical or credible way to stop something like that really.

[Laughing_Man]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No, not might.. *WILL*. It is inevitable.
You cannot stop it all. Abuse sometimes happening is not an indication of a corupt regime.

Plaintiff clearly mentioned the Ferelden circle and that mage that was killed. Out in the forest. By a templar. With no witnesses. And complains how corrupt the templars are becasue of it.
Which is silly. Because there's no practical or credible way to stop something like that really.

While I agree that it's hard to stop such a crime, it didn't happen in a vacuum, this is a classic hate-crime.

But let me ask you something else: why is it that as far as we know templars don't have something like military police or internal investigations? (seekers are not used to catch templars who do wrong, but are more like the 'council spectres' of the chantry, interested in large scale threats to the chantry's power.)

If  the chantry as an organisation is not concerned with the possibility of corruption in it's ranks, and have no safeguards against it, that should tell you alot about it's moral health.

And while abuse of power is always possible, you always have a choice to make such abuse harder, and make punishments for such abuse harsher.

[Vapaa]

The mage-templar issue is one of the things that makes me involved in the DA universe. It's quite brilliant actually; it's a totally grey debate that involves relatable concepts...it's a variation of the classic freedom/security dilamma, it involves organization (with the question of corruption) and people (with the question of personal freedom and mental stability) so you'll always have pros and cons

I look forward to roleplay differents inquisitors, from the bloodmage who belive in absolute freedom and everyone who makes deals with demons are weaklings who don't deserve to live, to the crazy anti-mage who wants to enslave them all...as well as several nuances between those two extremes

[Lotion Soronarr]

TheRedVipress wrote...
While I agree that it's hard to stop such a crime, it didn't happen in a vacuum, this is a classic hate-crime.

You cannto stop hate either. And the question is what caused that hate.
I know a pro-mages will instantly cry "CHANTRY!", but that is a overly-simplistic, as we've already seen tempalrs that are friendly and sympathetic to mages hardened by their experiences, so hate can have a far mroe practical and closer cause than "religious indoctrination".

But let me ask you something else: why is it that as far as we know templars don't have something like military police or internal investigations? (seekers are not used to catch templars who do wrong, but are more like the 'council spectres' of the chantry, interested in large scale threats to the chantry's power.)

The Seekers should be it. And the cooperation between the KC and heh FI, and the Grand Cleric beign used as a mediator and being able to veto the KC on some matters are all there to serve as a balance.
That the Seekers faield in Kirkwall is another matter.

If  the chantry as an organisation is not concerned with the possibility of corruption in it's ranks, and have no safeguards against it, that should tell you alot about it's moral health.

It's a medieval society. Safeguards will be limited and insufficient by our standards no matter how you look at it.
They simply do not have the detective or oversight possibilities we do.

No CSI, no cammeras, no monitors...

And while abuse of power is always possible, you always have a choice to make such abuse harder, and make punishments for such abuse harsher.

Of course. But the detection of abuse always is a problem.. closed ranks and secrets are common everywhere ehere there is abuse. In modern police, military, buisnesses....everywhere.

[Dermain]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

TheRedVipress wrote...
While I agree that it's hard to stop such a crime, it didn't happen in a vacuum, this is a classic hate-crime.

You cannto stop hate either. And the question is what caused that hate.
I know a pro-mages will instantly cry "CHANTRY!", but that is a overly-simplistic, as we've already seen tempalrs that are friendly and sympathetic to mages hardened by their experiences, so hate can have a far mroe practical and closer cause than "religious indoctrination".

Actually you can, you just need to live in an egalitarian society with absolutely no knowledge of/interference of hierarchal societies.  Unfortunately, many of those societies have indeed been changed.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

But let me ask you something else: why is it that as far as we  know templars don't have something like military police or internal investigations? (seekers are not used to catch templars who do wrong, but are more like the 'council spectres' of the chantry, interested in large scale threats to the chantry's power.)

The Seekers should be it. And the cooperation between the KC and heh FI, and the Grand Cleric beign used as a mediator and being able to veto the KC on some matters are all there to serve as a balance.
That the Seekers faield in Kirkwall is another matter.

Yes, they should be the internal affairs for the templars. Unfortunately they aren't, or if they are they are extremely bad at it.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

If  the chantry as an organisation is not concerned with the possibility of corruption in it's ranks, and have no safeguards against it, that should tell you alot about it's moral health.

It's a medieval society. Safeguards will be limited and insufficient by our standards no matter how you look at it.
They simply do not have the detective or oversight possibilities we do.

No CSI, no cammeras, no monitors...

 

It's more that there are no long standing punishments faced by the Chantry when they commit an act of abuse. They are inherently infallible, unless you have an army to help prove your point.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And while abuse of power is always possible, you always have a choice to make such abuse harder, and make punishments for such abuse harsher.

Of course. But the detection of abuse always is a problem.. closed ranks and secrets are common everywhere ehere there is abuse. In modern police, military, buisnesses....everywhere.

So therefore it is perfecly acceptable?

Dave of Canada wrote...

fchopin wrote...

You’ve never been mind raped before have you?

Does torture count?

Depends on the type of torture. Was it physical (getting beat) or psychological (waterboarding)? Both will damage the mind, but psychological torture does it more effectively.

Modifié par Myrkale, 30 septembre 2013 - 10:00 .

[Laughing_Man]

@ Lotion Soronnar 

The first step and the easiest way to decrease hate is education.

And whether you want it or not, the chantry either does or is responsible directly or indirectly for most of the hate-mongering against the minorities.

Seekers are not internal-affairs, they are not interested in the problems of a lowly mage, or the misdeeds of a single templar.

And the world of DA is not a medieval society the way we know it, in some ways they are alot more modern.

And as for actual detection of misdeeds, first of all you have the human element, like informants and such.
Second, CSI didn't start with finger prints, DNA, cameras, and computers, it existed to one degree or another before. And tranquils are perfect for this kind of job. (if you want to justify this abomination, at least use it for something good, not just to finance your tyrannical organisation.)

The thing, even your defense is very apologetic in it's essence. 
And that's not really enough at this point to reinstate a corrupt system.

[azarhal]

TheRedVipress wrote...

Seekers are not internal-affairs, they are not interested in the problems of a lowly mage, or the misdeeds of a single templar.

Seekers are internal-affairs, their main job description is that they watch over the watchmen. Although, I suspect the way it works is that they don't do anything until they get a "tip" about something being admiss and nobody reported the Kirkwall situation or somebody in the order (pointing finger at Lambert going by Asunder) made sure no Seekers were sent over there to investigate.

Although, cut content from DA2 had a Seeker (Cassandra) showing up there in Act 3...unannounced.

[TheKomandorShepard]

azarhal wrote...

TheRedVipress wrote...

Seekers are not internal-affairs, they are not interested in the problems of a lowly mage, or the misdeeds of a single templar.

Seekers are internal-affairs, their main job description is that they watch over the watchmen. Although, I suspect the way it works is that they don't do anything until they get a "tip" about something being admiss and nobody reported the Kirkwall situation or somebody in the order (pointing finger at Lambert going by Asunder) made sure no Seekers were sent over there to investigate.

Although, cut content from DA2 had a Seeker (Cassandra) showing up there in Act 3...unannounced.

theoretically they should be this in practice they are only high-ranked templars who hunt for mages it wasn't mystery what meredith and other templars do in kirkwall every in city knew that and leliana was send there as well so i doubt that she missed that.Even id dawn of the seeker chantry was rotten and that case was because chantry was in danger not mages.  

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 30 septembre 2013 - 11:41 .

[Ravensword]

EntropicAngel wrote...

This is beautiful. Beautiful.

What in particular?

[andy6915]

Ravensword wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

This is beautiful. Beautiful.

What in particular?

The people from Hammerfell's curved... Penises.

[wright1978]

I'm certainly glad this issue will remain grey, giving my inquisitor some tough thinking to do. My first protaganist is on course to be anti-chantry so will be leaning towards any solution that removes them from any management system or the last resort if all other solutions are unacceptable, freedom.

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Myrkale wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You cannto stop hate either. .[/quote]

Actually you can, you just need to live in an egalitarian society with absolutely no knowledge of/interference of hierarchal societies.  Unfortunately, many of those societies have indeed been changed.[/quote]

Wut?
How would that stop hate?


[quote]
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
It's a medieval society. Safeguards will be limited and insufficient by our standards no matter how you look at it.
They simply do not have the detective or oversight possibilities we do.

No CSI, no cammeras, no monitors...[/quote] 

It's more that there are no long standing punishments faced by the Chantry when they commit an act of abuse. They are inherently infallible, unless you have an army to help prove your point.[/qutoe]

No punishments?
Where did you get that from?


[quote]
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Of course. But the detection of abuse always is a problem.. closed ranks and secrets are common everywhere ehere there is abuse. In modern police, military, buisnesses....everywhere.
[/quote]

So therefore it is perfecly acceptable?[/quote]

Nope.
But one should keep ones expectations in check.

[Lotion Soronarr]

TheRedVipress wrote...
And whether you want it or not, the chantry either does or is responsible directly or indirectly for most of the hate-mongering against the minorities.

I'd disagree.
The teachings of the Chantry are rather neutral towards minorities. Individuals are always the problem.
And when individuals get in positions of power and influence....

And the world of DA is not a medieval society the way we know it, in some ways they are alot more modern.

And as for actual detection of misdeeds, first of all you have the human element, like informants and such.
Second, CSI didn't start with finger prints, DNA, cameras, and computers, it existed to one degree or another before. And tranquils are perfect for this kind of job. (if you want to justify this abomination, at least use it for something good, not just to finance your tyrannical organisation.)

Still incredibly primitive and insufficient.
Informans can only get you so far without physical evidence.

The thing, even your defense is very apologetic in it's essence. 
And that's not really enough at this point to reinstate a corrupt system.

The Circles need adjustment.
But it's the best option out there.

[Fast Jimmy]

andy69156915 wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

This is beautiful. Beautiful.

What in particular?

The people from Hammerfell's curved... Penises.

I think the correct term may be penisii.

[Ianamus]

There are far worse fates in Thedas than being in a Circle. Being a member of the Qun is even more restrictive, being a slave in Tevinter would be far worse and I'm sure that countless Elves living in alienages would give their right leg in exchange for the security and improved living conditions of a circle.

The way people talk about it you would think they are the most hard done by people in Thedas, but they really aren't.

[Xilizhra]

EJ107 wrote...

There are far worse fates in Thedas than being in a Circle. Being a member of the Qun is even more restrictive, being a slave in Tevinter would be far worse and I'm sure that countless Elves living in alienages would give their right leg in exchange for the security and improved living conditions of a circle.

The way people talk about it you would think they are the most hard done by people in Thedas, but they really aren't.

Fiona's testimony was that the Circle was worse than being an Orlesian noble's sex slave, so...

[Chari]

Xilizhra wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

There are far worse fates in Thedas than being in a Circle. Being a member of the Qun is even more restrictive, being a slave in Tevinter would be far worse and I'm sure that countless Elves living in alienages would give their right leg in exchange for the security and improved living conditions of a circle.

The way people talk about it you would think they are the most hard done by people in Thedas, but they really aren't.

Fiona's testimony was that the Circle was worse than being an Orlesian noble's sex slave, so...

Yet her worst nightmare was about being a sex slave, rather than being a Circle mage 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Chari wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

There are far worse fates in Thedas than being in a Circle. Being a member of the Qun is even more restrictive, being a slave in Tevinter would be far worse and I'm sure that countless Elves living in alienages would give their right leg in exchange for the security and improved living conditions of a circle.

The way people talk about it you would think they are the most hard done by people in Thedas, but they really aren't.

Fiona's testimony was that the Circle was worse than being an Orlesian noble's sex slave, so...

Yet her worst nightmare was about being a sex slave, rather than being a Circle mage 

Well my warden dream was about wardens despite could tell that don't give crap about wardens.

[Laughing_Man]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I'd disagree.
The teachings of the Chantry are rather neutral towards minorities. Individuals are always the problem.
And when individuals get in positions of power and influence....


Still incredibly primitive and insufficient.
Informans can only get you so far without physical evidence.


The Circles need adjustment.
But it's the best option out there.

The Chantry and the elves:
First you have Shartan, and how the chantry chose to thank him for his bravery, all because an exalted march that was called for unlikely reasons (the official chantry reason that is).

Then you have the chantry acting all patronising and hypocritical towards the elves in their alienage, they will come to tend to the elves "spiritual needs" like marriage, but won't lift a finger to actually help them or protect them.
(the only templars you see there, are those pursuing magic)

Crime investigation:
The chantry seems more than capable when it comes to pursuing it's own goals.
But suddenly the need to police inside corruption is too hard and complicated?
More likely that this corruption is acceptable to those in power.

Circle "adjustment":
You don't "adjust" a broken system. You make a new one.
This is the system that led to the events we are facing now.
Treat someone like a dangerous animal, you will get one.
Treat someone like you would a human being, and you will get a human.
You might have the occasional Voldemort, but for every one of those you will have a Dumbledore and a Potter.

[Chari]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Chari wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

There are far worse fates in Thedas than being in a Circle. Being a member of the Qun is even more restrictive, being a slave in Tevinter would be far worse and I'm sure that countless Elves living in alienages would give their right leg in exchange for the security and improved living conditions of a circle.

The way people talk about it you would think they are the most hard done by people in Thedas, but they really aren't.

Fiona's testimony was that the Circle was worse than being an Orlesian noble's sex slave, so...

Yet her worst nightmare was about being a sex slave, rather than being a Circle mage 

Well my warden dream was about wardens despite could tell that don't give crap about wardens.

As Gaider said, in the game the developers are restricted by resources and capability of PC. In the book though, Gaider is the Maker XD He does whatever he pleases

[Beerfish]

Regardless of which side of the fence you are on either by story or writing skill or by good fortune the story has polarized the community on the mage/templar/chantry issue. The number of long drawn out posts discussing or arguing the issues has been a good thing. Things get over heated at times on this issue and the elves or qunari but the fact that people have very different opinions of the issues is a credit to the story or dragon age and the creators of that story.

[cjones91]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Yeah, the Chantry is why the mages in Thedas are dumber than stumps.

I think it's because the Chantry deprives mages of endless halls filled with books - classrooms - and teachers.

 A pretty or comfortable prison is still a prison.