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[Cainhurst Crow]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Alistair can stick himself on a pike for trying to kill the greatest hero Ferelden has ever known

Who was responsible for the complete defeat at Ostagar, the king's death, the near complete destruction of the Wardens and the near demise of his oh so beloved Fereldan. Come on mate, it's obvious he's done more harm than good.

You are massively oversimplifying.

The defeat at Ostagar was inevitable. There are too many darkspawn, as we have from Gaider and from actually watching the battle. The King's death was not entirely Loghain's fault either. Loghain seems to have annoyed Cailan not to fight on the front, which is a good idea whether or not Loghain planned to withdraw. And that's all Loghain can really do, legally. The near complete destruction of the Wardens? That was because the bulk of them were at the front, which Duncan should have pointed out was foolish. The near complete demise of Ferelden? Okay, some of the blame for that is with Loghain, since he massively failed uniting Ferelden. Teagan is also partially responsible, since he raised his objection to Loghain's actions before the Blight was settled. Accusing the main general of treason is the sort of thing you do after the darkspawn are dead.

Loghain has done things that are legitimately wrong. Ostagar is not one of them.

Except for the fact that it was treason, and he never once tried to bring up any of his points and instead did a half-assed scheme of blaming the wardens and orlais, which was only because of his own prejudice.

The king was effectively dead the moment his lines met the darkspawn. Loghain's soldiers still had a chance to gtfo.

I find it funny that while demanding teagan save his suspicions and accusation for after the blight is over against loghian, loghain does essentially the opposite when it comes to orlais and practically declares war on them and mobolizes his forces for that effort instead of tackling the darkspawn.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 20 octobre 2013 - 01:23 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

You are massively oversimplifying.

The defeat at Ostagar was inevitable. There are too many darkspawn, as we have from Gaider and from actually watching the battle. The King's death was not entirely Loghain's fault either. Loghain seems to have annoyed Cailan not to fight on the front, which is a good idea whether or not Loghain planned to withdraw. And that's all Loghain can really do, legally. The near complete destruction of the Wardens? That was because the bulk of them were at the front, which Duncan should have pointed out was foolish. The near complete demise of Ferelden? Okay, some of the blame for that is with Loghain, since he massively failed uniting Ferelden. Teagan is also partially responsible, since he raised his objection to Loghain's actions before the Blight was settled. Accusing the main general of treason is the sort of thing you do after the darkspawn are dead.

Loghain has done things that are legitimately wrong. Ostagar is not one of them.

Except for the fact that it was treason, and he never once tried to bring up any of his points and instead did a half-assed scheme of blaming the wardens and orlais, which was only because of his own prejudice.

The king was effectively dead the moment his lines met the darkspawn. Loghain's soldiers still had a chance to gtfo.

I find it funny that while demanding teagan save his suspicions and accusation for after the blight is over against loghian, loghain does essentially the opposite when it comes to orlais and practically declares war on them and mobolizes his forces for that effort instead of tackling the darkspawn.

This was a poor move on Loghain's part. That I'm not denying. What I'm denying is that Ostagar was entirely Loghain's fault.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Alright, I'll give you ostagar on not being loghains total fault.

[In Exile]

Former_Fiend wrote...
And yet there is a senior Warden- one who knew Duncan and the others that died at Ostagar far better than Alistair did- right there arguing for Loghain's recruitment.

Riordan launched himself off a building to kill a flying dragon. He's not the sharpest knife in the kitchen. His best idea for stopping the blight was to try and hit a bullet with a smaller bullet. 

Alistair's duty as a warden is to stop the blight by whatever means necessary. Recruiting Loghain can help do that. Alistair refuses out of a desire for revenge. He abandons his duty, he abandons Ferelden, because the man he hates is going to die by the taint and not by the sword. 

We can very much contest whether Loghain can help that, since again, he shows at about every turn that he's incapable of being trusted and terrible at pretty much everything, but let's say I grant that Loghain is worth it. 

He's still guilty of murdering almost all of the Fereldan GWs and plotting to kill the remaning ones. That's a capital offence. Alistair refuses because he thinks its injust to allow a criminal against the order to survive. 

[dragonflight288]

*bangs head against wall*

Okay, this topic on Loghain was discussed in a thread I made up a couple months ago...or less, can't quite recall.

My opinions are long and drawn out in that thread.

http://social.biowar.../index/17304044

Here's a point I made in that thread, so I'm going to quote myself here.

I wrote....


Well, I truly believe Orlais had every intention of occupying Ferelden, rather than leave once the Blight was vanquished, and I say this for two reasons.

One, the number of soldiers Orlais was sending was over ten times the size Loghain said in the Landsmeet, and we get the numbers direct from Riordin after rescuing him from Howe. Loghain says that the Orlesians were sending 4 legions of Chevalier's. However, a legion is 3,000 soldiers. Riordin, on the other hand, said he came with 400 wardens and 200 divisions of calvary. Now a division can be anywhere from 1,000 to 1,200 soldiers. 4 Legions is 12,000 soldiers. 200 divisions is 200,000 soldiers minimum. 12,000 is a good number for reinforcing another nation, 200,000 sounds closer to invasion.

The second reason are the letters we find from Cailan, Celene and Eamon at Ostagar, and how Cailan was quite likely to put Anora aside and marry Celene, as Eamon was urging him to do (not marry Celene, but put Anora aside.) If Cailan and Celene married, I suspect those 200,000 soldiers would be very useful to keep Ferelden in check while it is turned into Orlais through marriage.

Simply put, the sheer number of soldiers Riordin says is coming is so much larger than what Loghain announces at the Landsmeet, that I can't help but feel he's right about Orlais.

I think Gaider also confirmed that Loghain didn't plan on abandoning Cailan until the very moment he gave the order so he could spare most of the army.

I believe Ostagar was unwinnable, and I made my points in that thread as well, so I'll quote myself again for Ostagar couldn't be won...

I wrote....


The plan was to get the darkspawn to get fully committed, and then flank them. But there were several problems. One, Cailan had them charge so they were surrounded on three sides, and their own soldiers were pushing them forward from the back to continue the charge, so they left a defensible location. Two, the tower of Ishal had fallen, so the Warden and Alistair had to fight their way up the tower, and missed the signal completely. Three, when the beacon was lit, after we see Loghain retreat, we are given a very brief overhead view of the battle. However, that brief view shows the darkspawn horde is still coming out of the woods, and so they weren't committed. Had Loghain attacked, there was no real feasible way he'd get to Cailan before he died. Too many darkspawn.

One of Loghain's and Wynne's dialogues cover this very fact, when Wynne is accusing him of regicide for leaving, and he asks her why she didn't rush in and save the king. She responds by saying there was nothing she could've done, she had no army. Loghain said he had no magic or mages (seeing as the Chantry only allowed 7 mages to Ostagar) and had no one available to take on a large group of darkspawn, so he'd have to fight his way through. He had just as much chance of getting to Cailan as Wynne did, and then he pretty much calls her a hypocrite for getting on his case when she did the same thing as he.

Just my own two cents.

[Br3admax]

Do you even feudal? You die with the king. Like a captain to a ship.


Cowards.

[dragonflight288]

Br3ad wrote...

Do you even feudal? You die with the king. Like a captain to a ship.


Cowards.

And yet history has shown this isn't true time and again.

[Dermain]

In Exile wrote...
He's still guilty of murdering almost all of the Fereldan GWs and plotting to kill the remaning ones. That's a capital offence. Alistair refuses because he thinks its injust to allow a criminal against the order to survive. 

As was Duncan, but he was still recruited with the intention of dying during the joining ritual.

[In Exile]

TK514 wrote...
So what you're seeing at the Landsmeet is Alistair spitting on your friendship and Duncan's memory.  He is implicitly saying that he doesn't trust your judgement and he doesn't care about the things Duncan believed in or what he's been teaching you for the last year.  That he would rather stand by and let every man, woman and child in Ferelden, and possibly beyond, be murdered by the Darkspawn than have Loghain choke to death on a Tainted Chalice or live to become a death seeking ghoul in 10-30 years.  That level of betrayal would be bad enough in a random comrade in arms.  From a friend?

Except that you're saying to him that the man who killed every single Grey Warden in Ferelden except for Alistiar and a recruit, who actively plotted to kill the last remaining two Wardens in a way that would have absolutely doomed Ferelden, who shut the gates to Ferelden to prevent Orlesian GWs from reinforcing Ferelden, and who actively plotted to stop your quest to raise an army and unite the land at every turn should live.

Even if we assume Loghain is actually capable of pissing straight in a pot, despite all the evidence to the contrary, he's committed so many crimes against Ferelden, and against the Warden order specifically, not to mention against the Warden and Alistair personally, that Alistair is quite justified in saying (by your logic) that you've (i) parted company with reality for suggesting to recruit him and (ii) absolutely betrayed the friendship between you.

Your entire argument rests on the premise that Alistair is somehow being unreasonable for not trusting you. But that argument cuts both ways. 

Someone asked about the HN working with Howe if the situation had come down to him being offered the Chalice;  from my perspective, absolutely.  I wouldn't have had anything to do with the man, socially, but I'd have listened to the advice of an individual who was smart enough and ruthless enough to engineer the near extermination of a more powerful rival's family, take their lands, and then negotiate and manipulate his way into some of the most powerful positions in the nation.  And then I'd have made certain that, post Blight, we were never in the same country together again.

Howe's proven at every turn that he'd sell everyone out to get rich. He's the kind of person who would leave everyone to die to make it rich himself. These aren't people you can suffer to live because they're not people you can even use meaningful in war. 

And it's the same argument against Loghain. There's a reason the army heavily punishes outright treason and (to a much lesser extent) disobedience. Because people like this are such wildcards that they're too much of a danger to have free. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

In Exile wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...
And yet there is a senior Warden- one who knew Duncan and the others that died at Ostagar far better than Alistair did- right there arguing for Loghain's recruitment.

Riordan launched himself off a building to kill a flying dragon. He's not the sharpest knife in the kitchen. His best idea for stopping the blight was to try and hit a bullet with a smaller bullet. 

Technically, that doesn't mean he's wrong on this matter.

Alistair's duty as a warden is to stop the blight by whatever means necessary. Recruiting Loghain can help do that. Alistair refuses out of a desire for revenge. He abandons his duty, he abandons Ferelden, because the man he hates is going to die by the taint and not by the sword. 

We can very much contest whether Loghain can help that, since again, he shows at about every turn that he's incapable of being trusted and terrible at pretty much everything, but let's say I grant that Loghain is worth it. 

He's still guilty of murdering almost all of the Fereldan GWs and plotting to kill the remaning ones. That's a capital offence. Alistair refuses because he thinks its injust to allow a criminal against the order to survive. 

As I've already pointed out, the Wardens were effectively dead the moment the darkspawn line hit theirs. As for Alistair and the PC, don't forget that they missed the signal they were supposed to light. Loghain does not yet know that the spawn are able to access the tunnels below the tower.

Besides, being a criminal doesn't stop the Wardens recruiting you. Not even if your crime is interfering with the Wardens yourself. (Ask Duncan. Yes, the point has been raised that his Warden-Commander wanted him to die. I also remember reading Duncan being put out for a second, and then noting that if she really hated him that bad, he'd have been transferred to another post.)

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Br3ad wrote...

Do you even feudal? You die with the king. Like a captain to a ship.

Cowards.

That's pragmatic. And good for the country, since it's not like it needed all those soldiers he'd have taken with him.

[In Exile]

Myrkale wrote...
As was Duncan, but he was still recruited with the intention of dying during the joining ritual.

Putting aside how stupid the idea of execution by russian roullete is, the argument is (apparently) that there's no justification for allowing Loghain to die if we think he's actually useful.

But there are a number of good reasons to have a rule that while potentially criminals should be admitted into the Warden, actual traitors against the order shouldn't. Not the least of which being that the GWs can't function without that given the number of sacrifices their members have to make. 

[TK514]

In Exile wrote...

Former_Fiend wrote...
And yet there is a senior Warden- one who knew Duncan and the others that died at Ostagar far better than Alistair did- right there arguing for Loghain's recruitment.

Riordan launched himself off a building to kill a flying dragon. He's not the sharpest knife in the kitchen. His best idea for stopping the blight was to try and hit a bullet with a smaller bullet. 

This is unfair to Riordan.  There are very limited options for taking the fight to what amounts to a jet fighter with the technology available in Thedas.  The AD never would have had to land, and there would have been no way to knock it out of the air if Riordan hadn't taken his leap of desperation.  The demonstrated speed and agility of the AD in flight points very strongly to why gryphons were so important to the past Grey Wardens.

[LobselVith8]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Just my own two cents.

I thought you brought up some really good points. Reminded me of KoP's blog about the depiction of the virtually impenetrable darkspawn horde at Ostagar. Thanks for sharing your two cents.

[In Exile]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Technically, that doesn't mean he's wrong on this matter.

No. But if we're going to use his opinion as substantial, i.e., that his evaluation of Loghain's abilities is accurate or that the plan to put Loghain to use is viable, we have to consider where the plan is coming from. And when it's from Orlais least competent Warden, it's a good idea to immediately question it.

As I've already pointed out, the Wardens were effectively dead the moment the darkspawn line hit theirs.

Loghain's entire plan was to brand them as traitors and execute any remaining living Wardens in Ferelden. This isn't a matter of an accidental death. Let's say I grant your implicit assumption that Loghain didn't arrange his entire battle plan so that Cailan + allies were massacred by the darkspawn and instead took advantage of the fact most GWs died. He still actively planned to exterminate the order in Ferelden. He had the intent to kill. He left ment to clean up and murder the GWs in Lothering. He had men in Denerim pretending to be Warden supports to lure Wardens and their supporters in and kill them.

As for Alistair and the PC, don't forget that they missed the signal they were supposed to light. Loghain does not yet know that the spawn are able to access the tunnels below the tower.

Zevran? Lothering? 

Besides, being a criminal doesn't stop the Wardens recruiting you. Not even if your crime is interfering with the Wardens yourself. (Ask Duncan. Yes, the point has been raised that his Warden-Commander wanted him to die. I also remember reading Duncan being put out for a second, and then noting that if she really hated him that bad, he'd have been transferred to another post.) 

The fact that the Wardens have an unbelievably stupid policy doesn't mean that Alistair isn't justified in his position, and that he's not the only one actually advancing the mission of the order by arguing for an outcome that makes it far more likely they'd actually achieve their goal. 

[Xilizhra]

What exactly is Loghain repentant for, if I may ask?

[In Exile]

TK514 wrote...
This is unfair to Riordan.  There are very limited options for taking the fight to what amounts to a jet fighter with the technology available in Thedas.  The AD never would have had to land, and there would have been no way to knock it out of the air if Riordan hadn't taken his leap of desperation.

You're right. It's impossible to knock jetfighters out of the air from the ground. That's why the only available defence IRL is to throw soldiers from other planes at them instead of using some form of surface-to-the-sky-explosive-device to shoot down the fighter.

It's a shame that Ferelden doesn't have humans and elves that can shoot explosive falls of fire, lightning and ice from their hands at the sky. Or giant stone monsters that can hurl giant blocks of stone. 

Because if either of those things existed, a slow-moving flying beast could totally be taken down by the equivalent of the surface-to-the-sky-explosive device.

The demonstrated speed and agility of the AD in flight points very strongly to why gryphons were so important to the past Grey Wardens. 

Or they could just use a makeshift SAM site. 

Modifié par In Exile, 20 octobre 2013 - 02:17 .

[Br3admax]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Do you even feudal? You die with the king. Like a captain to a ship.

Cowards.

That's pragmatic. And good for the country, since it's not like it needed all those soldiers he'd have taken with him.

To be serious for a second, they really weren't needed though. They were just used to kill each other. 

[Br3admax]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Do you even feudal? You die with the king. Like a captain to a ship.


Cowards.

And yet history has shown this isn't true time and again.

Most Kings aren't Cailan stupid, friend. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Br3ad wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Do you even feudal? You die with the king. Like a captain to a ship.

Cowards.

That's pragmatic. And good for the country, since it's not like it needed all those soldiers he'd have taken with him.

To be serious for a second, they really weren't needed though. They were just used to kill each other. 

Just because they were used poorly didn't mean they weren't potentially useful.

[TK514]

In Exile wrote...

Except that you're saying to him that the man who killed every single Grey Warden in Ferelden except for Alistiar and a recruit, who actively plotted to kill the last remaining two Wardens in a way that would have absolutely doomed Ferelden, who shut the gates to Ferelden to prevent Orlesian GWs from reinforcing Ferelden, and who actively plotted to stop your quest to raise an army and unite the land at every turn should live.

Your entire argument rests on the premise that Alistair is somehow being unreasonable for not trusting you. But that argument cuts both ways.

All of Loghain's actions against the Wardens can be put down to ignorance as to the Wardens' true nature and purpose.  Ignorance which is intentionally fostered by the Grey Wardens themselves.  The Wardens are secretive about what it really means to join the Order, to the point of murdering those who discover what the Joining entails and then refuse the rite, and they specifically do not tell outsiders about why they have to be the ones to kill the AD and stop the Blight.  To non-Grey Wardens, they are simply a specially dedicated anti-Darkspawn army, with little or no purpose in the centuries between Blights.  To many Ferelden, they are the Order who tried to steal their country and got kicked out. 

To Loghain, they are the overhyped Order who tried to steal his country and who want to invite in the Orlesians, who did steal his country and who he gave up everything to kick out.  It's only too easy to cast them as leeches and opportunists, desperate to call any large darkspawn incursion a Blight to justify not only their continued existence, but to allow them to get a foolish king to sanction their invasion of his country.

Modifié par TK514, 20 octobre 2013 - 02:31 .

[Shadow Fox]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Because Alistair went AWOL during a freaking Blight,the other Gray Wardens did'nt abandon their duties to fight darkspawn because they had a hissy fit.

Velanna,Anders and all the Wardens in The Calling did:whistle: and Janeka helped free an extremely dangerous Darkspawn as well.

But did they abandon their duties during a Blight?Because Alistair did and that makes it much morse.

No it isn't given he doesn't know why Wardens only can kill Darkspawn and doesn't leave the party only after you betray him.

The what-Alistair-considers-a-betrayal is entirely consistent with Grey Warden values. Abandoning the Wardens is the opposite of that. And despite Alistair not knowing why the Wardens were literally necessary, he already knew enough to know that he was valuable.

Well I didn't say he didn't simply that it wasn't any worse then what the others I listed did.

The Wardens from The Calling and Janeka were worse.

[David Gaider]

And I pop in this thread to see... we're not even discussing mages and templars? Even remotely? We're talking about Loghain and Grey Wardens?

Then I suspect the thread has more than run its course.