2497 réponses à ce sujet

[cjones91]

TheRedVipress wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I'd disagree.
The teachings of the Chantry are rather neutral towards minorities. Individuals are always the problem.
And when individuals get in positions of power and influence....


Still incredibly primitive and insufficient.
Informans can only get you so far without physical evidence.


The Circles need adjustment.
But it's the best option out there.

The Chantry and the elves:
First you have Shartan, and how the chantry chose to thank him for his bravery, all because an exalted march that was called for unlikely reasons (the official chantry reason that is).

Then you have the chantry acting all patronising and hypocritical towards the elves in their alienage, they will come to tend to the elves "spiritual needs" like marriage, but won't lift a finger to actually help them or protect them.
(the only templars you see there, are those pursuing magic)

Crime investigation:
The chantry seems more than capable when it comes to pursuing it's own goals.
But suddenly the need to police inside corruption is too hard and complicated?
More likely that this corruption is acceptable to those in power.

Circle "adjustment":
You don't "adjust" a broken system. You make a new one.
This is the system that led to the events we are facing now.
Treat someone like a dangerous animal, you will get one.
Treat someone like you would a human being, and you will get a human.
You might have the occasional Voldemort, but for every one of those you will have a Dumbledore and a Potter.

That's why I believe the Chantry needs to be torn down because they have failed at everything and are corrupt.

[cjones91]

EJ107 wrote...

There are far worse fates in Thedas than being in a Circle. Being a member of the Qun is even more restrictive, being a slave in Tevinter would be far worse and I'm sure that countless Elves living in alienages would give their right leg in exchange for the security and improved living conditions of a circle.

The way people talk about it you would think they are the most hard done by people in Thedas, but they really aren't.

I'll say being in a place where you are guarded by people who are just itching to kill you if you made the slightest mistake is a worse fate.Those who exchange freedom for security or comfort deserve neither.

[Chari]

cjones91 wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

There are far worse fates in Thedas than being in a Circle. Being a member of the Qun is even more restrictive, being a slave in Tevinter would be far worse and I'm sure that countless Elves living in alienages would give their right leg in exchange for the security and improved living conditions of a circle.

The way people talk about it you would think they are the most hard done by people in Thedas, but they really aren't.

I'll say being in a place where you are guarded by people who are just itching to kill you if you made the slightest mistake is a worse fate.Those who exchange freedom for security or comfort deserve neither.

So much hypocrisy for a promoter of "freedom"

[cjones91]

Chari wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

There are far worse fates in Thedas than being in a Circle. Being a member of the Qun is even more restrictive, being a slave in Tevinter would be far worse and I'm sure that countless Elves living in alienages would give their right leg in exchange for the security and improved living conditions of a circle.

The way people talk about it you would think they are the most hard done by people in Thedas, but they really aren't.

I'll say being in a place where you are guarded by people who are just itching to kill you if you made the slightest mistake is a worse fate.Those who exchange freedom for security or comfort deserve neither.

So much hypocrisy for a promoter of "freedom"

Ben Franklin may have lived in a time where certain people were given less rights than the white man but that does'nt mean his words are any less true.People who allow themselves to be slaves just for comfort or security deserve neither of those things.

[Beerfish]

cjones91 wrote...


That's why I believe the Chantry needs to be torn down because they have failed at everything and are corrupt.

A great many peiople in Thedas follow the chantry.  People seem to totally ignore the good that the organization does because of the mages/templar thing.  The ones who organize help for refuges, the poor and the homeless?  The Chantry.
A place where people seek refuge when things go bad?  The local chantry.

[Chari]

Beerfish wrote...

cjones91 wrote...


That's why I believe the Chantry needs to be torn down because they have failed at everything and are corrupt.

A great many peiople in Thedas follow the chantry.  People seem to totally ignore the good that the organization does because of the mages/templar thing.  The ones who organize help for refuges, the poor and the homeless?  The Chantry.
A place where people seek refuge when things go bad?  The local chantry.

By the same logic these people must hate every government in the world. Because no society rises without blood and tears shed
But, they're hypocrites, it's better just to ignore them

[Cainhurst Crow]

cjones91 wrote...

Chari wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

There are far worse fates in Thedas than being in a Circle. Being a member of the Qun is even more restrictive, being a slave in Tevinter would be far worse and I'm sure that countless Elves living in alienages would give their right leg in exchange for the security and improved living conditions of a circle.

The way people talk about it you would think they are the most hard done by people in Thedas, but they really aren't.

I'll say being in a place where you are guarded by people who are just itching to kill you if you made the slightest mistake is a worse fate.Those who exchange freedom for security or comfort deserve neither.

So much hypocrisy for a promoter of "freedom"

Ben Franklin may have lived in a time where certain people were given less rights than the white man but that does'nt mean his words are any less true.People who allow themselves to be slaves just for comfort or security deserve neither of those things.

So you're freedom is only freedom to follow your vision, or you get no freedom at all. That's what your little quote implied. That people who use their freedom to choose a option different from your own don't deserve freedom.

[Silfren]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

You can't possibly logically establish how a group of people "really aren’t like other people" because they manifest a recessive genetic trait.

Simply put, if ~10% of Humans in Thedas are Mages, then another ~40% besides them would carry Magic in their blood. If you treat the 10% as "really aren’t like other people" it brings into question what should you do with the other 40%.

This is assuming it is a recessive genetic trait bound to a single gene. The ability to throw fireballs is enough to differentiate from "other people" in any case.

The lore so far has given every evidence that it is. For example, all Mages can throw fireballs. We don't get Mages who can throw fireballs but not lightning, or the other way around. If it's not single gene then it's several genes which are closely linked.

In any case, Magic is clearly established to be autosomal recessive. Because of this if it's bound to several (unlinked) genes instead of one, the proportion of heterozygotes (latent Magic carriers) among the population would actually be higher.

Given that this universe is one in which humans and elves can produce offspring together, but the offspring are ALWAYS human, and Gaider's assertion that there is a reason for this that doesn't involve Devs' complete misunderstanding of biology, I don't think we can go saying that anything is clearly established by trying to apply real world understanding of genetics and biology.

Modifié par Silfren, 30 septembre 2013 - 03:01 .

[cjones91]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Chari wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

There are far worse fates in Thedas than being in a Circle. Being a member of the Qun is even more restrictive, being a slave in Tevinter would be far worse and I'm sure that countless Elves living in alienages would give their right leg in exchange for the security and improved living conditions of a circle.

The way people talk about it you would think they are the most hard done by people in Thedas, but they really aren't.

I'll say being in a place where you are guarded by people who are just itching to kill you if you made the slightest mistake is a worse fate.Those who exchange freedom for security or comfort deserve neither.

So much hypocrisy for a promoter of "freedom"

Ben Franklin may have lived in a time where certain people were given less rights than the white man but that does'nt mean his words are any less true.People who allow themselves to be slaves just for comfort or security deserve neither of those things.

So you're freedom is only freedom to follow your vision, or you get no freedom at all. That's what your little quote implied. That people who use their freedom to choose a option different from your own don't deserve freedom.

What I implied was the original post I responded to said the city elves would have let themselves be imprisoned in exchange for food and shelter.My use of the quote was me making the arguement that anyone who lets themselves be enslaved for comfort or security don't deserve to have neither if they are willing to give up their lives for a bit of coin or food.

[cjones91]

Chari wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

cjones91 wrote...


That's why I believe the Chantry needs to be torn down because they have failed at everything and are corrupt.

A great many peiople in Thedas follow the chantry.  People seem to totally ignore the good that the organization does because of the mages/templar thing.  The ones who organize help for refuges, the poor and the homeless?  The Chantry.
A place where people seek refuge when things go bad?  The local chantry.

By the same logic these people must hate every government in the world. Because no society rises without blood and tears shed
But, they're hypocrites, it's better just to ignore them

Not every government is corrupt either.....and I would to know who you consider hypocrites since I've shown nothing of the sort.

[SeptimusMagistos]

I sincerely hope this doesn't mean we end up being railroaded into a half-hearted 'compromise' where the mages sell out their freedom for nicer accommodations and an hour's exercise outside.

I'm well aware of the issues total mage freedom would present. I still want to do it.

[cjones91]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

I sincerely hope this doesn't mean we end up being railroaded into a half-hearted 'compromise' where the mages sell out their freedom for nicer accommodations and an hour's exercise outside.

I'm well aware of the issues total mage freedom would present. I still want to do it.

My hope is there are options for handling the mage freedom situation.One option includes putting forth a probation type system where mages are allowed to live in towns and cities but they must check in every day to a group of unbiased templars,another option is letting mages live in society after they have proven to be trustworthy like Wynne.

[TheKomandorShepard]

"trustworthy like Wynne."

[Silfren]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@LobselVith8: Then Mr.House wouldn't be talking about those people.

But if you think there are not certain posters on here that excuse any mage behavior because: bad day, hurt feelings, heard of some mage who once had a Templar say something mean - I think you're not paying attention.

There's an equally potent group of posters who think that mages are inherently evil and will always, always, always succumb to demons in the end, so total imprisonment, even extermination, is justifiable.  The problem lies within posts like Mr House's and yours for implying that being pro-mage automatically and only means that a person is totally in favor of mages being completely free with no oversight. 

That said, what you're describing is an exaggeration.  I've been reading the BSN for several years, and the ONLY posts I've come across that fit your description are either in-character rp posts, or else they are humorous posts not meant to be taken seriously.  In actuality, what people who are in favor of mage freedom have said is that MOST of the cases we have seen of mage abuses DO have a foundation in templar abuses.  This is in no way deniable:  the instances of mages using blood magic for purely selfish motives with no bearing on the history of Chantry oppression are very few are far between compared to those that clearly DO have such a basis.  If you want to dismiss that as irrelevant, fine, but that's still what you're bringing to the table, it has no bearing on the evidence provided to us by the lore.  

All this aside, I think it's ridiculous that Mr. House actually harbored a fear that Bioware would cave to a group of pro-mage fans.  It's as stupid as thinking that any time Bioware includes inclusive romance content or anything else, that it can ONLY mean that they have no minds of their own, that everything they do is directly the result of pandering to fans.  I might as well grumble that by not catering to us pro-mage folks, Bioware is caving to the pro-tempar camp. It's no less silly as the former notion.

[Ianamus]

cjones91 wrote...

Those who exchange freedom for security or comfort deserve neither.

We already do exchange freedom for security and comfort. It's called the law. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

EJ107 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Those who exchange freedom for security or comfort deserve neither.

We already do exchange freedom for security and comfort. It's called the law. 

and you don't have neither

[cjones91]

EJ107 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Those who exchange freedom for security or comfort deserve neither.

We already do exchange freedom for security and comfort. It's called the law. 

Laws are created to keep people from acting like animals.Without laws then humans would return to being savages and the world will plunge into chaos.However laws are also written to respect someone's freedoms and no officer is allowed to mistreat their suspects like some templars do.

[TheKomandorShepard]

cjones91 wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Those who exchange freedom for security or comfort deserve neither.

We already do exchange freedom for security and comfort. It's called the law. 

Laws are created to keep people from acting like animals.Without laws then humans would return to being savages and the world will plunge into chaos.However laws are also written to respect someone's freedoms and no officer is allowed to mistreat their suspects like some templars do.

i would argue.

[Chari]

cjones91 wrote...

Chari wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

cjones91 wrote...


That's why I believe the Chantry needs to be torn down because they have failed at everything and are corrupt.

A great many peiople in Thedas follow the chantry.  People seem to totally ignore the good that the organization does because of the mages/templar thing.  The ones who organize help for refuges, the poor and the homeless?  The Chantry.
A place where people seek refuge when things go bad?  The local chantry.

By the same logic these people must hate every government in the world. Because no society rises without blood and tears shed
But, they're hypocrites, it's better just to ignore them

Not every government is corrupt either.....and I would to know who you consider hypocrites since I've shown nothing of the sort.

You speak of "freedom", give no choice to people who think otherwise => Hypocrisy.

As for the governement... Ahahah XD Yeah, give me an example of a "perfect" one without corruption, social discrimination and no war history
Evil is in nature, blood is the price of comfort and safety

[cjones91]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Those who exchange freedom for security or comfort deserve neither.

We already do exchange freedom for security and comfort. It's called the law. 

Laws are created to keep people from acting like animals.Without laws then humans would return to being savages and the world will plunge into chaos.However laws are also written to respect someone's freedoms and no officer is allowed to mistreat their suspects like some templars do.

i would argue.

I'll admit that some laws have caused more problems than others but the spirit of law remains unchanged.

[SeptimusMagistos]

Options are good. I'm just saying: if the plot of the game ends up being 'help mages and templars come to a compromise' and that compromise is anything less than amazing and satisfactory to both sides (or at least to me)? I'm not buying it. I'm just not interested in playing a game about putting the mages back in Circles.

[Huntress]

Beerfish wrote...

cjones91 wrote...


That's why I believe the Chantry needs to be torn down because they have failed at everything and are corrupt.

A great many peiople in Thedas follow the chantry.  People seem to totally ignore the good that the organization does because of the mages/templar thing.  The ones who organize help for refuges, the poor and the homeless?  The Chantry.
A place where people seek refuge when things go bad?  The local chantry.

Medieval churches and cathedrals were superbly built. The  peasants lived in cruck houses. These were filthy, usually no more than two rooms, with a wooden frame covered with wattle and daub (a mixture of mud, straw and manure). No cruck houses exist now - most simply collapsed after a while as they were so poorly built.

The churches and cathedrals built tended to use large stones.
So LOGIC dictates if barbarians are attacking the town not one will hide under their "bed" everyone runs towards the strongest building in town.. a Church/castles/caves.

http://www.historyle...eval_church.htm