2497 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

Silfren wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

No, I haven't conceded the point. If you think being mind-controlled is worse than a bunch of other awful things that can happen to you, then that's your prerogative. I maintain that they're roughly on par with each other.

losing control of your actions and being puppeted by someone else is a pretty terrible thing my friend. Many would argue that it is worse than death.

Oh, really? "Many" people? Well if there's many, then they must be right.

Many people also say that rape is the worst thing that can happen to a person, but as I said before, that's not even in my top ten.

Being under mind-control is not the worst thing I can imagine happening to me. I can imagine those things happening to me while under mind control, but they could happen to me anyway and be exactly as bad.

Might I ask what exactly is being argued here? Whatever qualifies as the worst fate ever is the ultimate mark of individual subjectivity.  It isn't like a review board can come up with an objective list in ascending order of Worst Fates.

I don't disagree, but every time I say mind control doesn't particularly bother me, people go "but but but- all of the things!"

To which I reply "Yes, and?". Which just starts the whole thing over.

But the point I made intially that lead to this line of conversation, is that magic has benefits that are proportionate to, if not greater than its dangers, and that, in the real world, we accept and use many extremely dangerous things, and pursue dangerous branches of research because we perceive the benefit or potential benefit to be too great to ignore.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 30 septembre 2013 - 04:52 .

[Senya]

Well, they might be a little irritated at the implication that mind control isn't traumatic similar to how people might be a little irritated when people say rape's not that big of an issue.

[Degenerate Rakia Time]

The only thing i hope doesn't happen is me being forced to achieve a compromise between the two sides, now it should be an option, but so should be helping either side win even if the consequences are worse than the compromise option

[Silfren]

Plaintiff wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

No, I haven't conceded the point. If you think being mind-controlled is worse than a bunch of other awful things that can happen to you, then that's your prerogative. I maintain that they're roughly on par with each other.

losing control of your actions and being puppeted by someone else is a pretty terrible thing my friend. Many would argue that it is worse than death.

Oh, really? "Many" people? Well if there's many, then they must be right.

Many people also say that rape is the worst thing that can happen to a person, but as I said before, that's not even in my top ten.

Being under mind-control is not the worst thing I can imagine happening to me. I can imagine those things happening to me while under mind control, but they could happen to me anyway and be exactly as bad.

Might I ask what exactly is being argued here? Whatever qualifies as the worst fate ever is the ultimate mark of individual subjectivity.  It isn't like a review board can come up with an objective list in ascending order of Worst Fates.

I don't disagree, but every time I say mind control doesn't particular bother me, people go "but but but- all of the things!"

To which I reply "Yes, and?". Which just starts the whole thing over.

Yeah, I've noticed that.  For whatever it's worth, mind control isn't something that bothers me either, probably because I have no frame of reference for what it's like...kind of like being Tranquil or demon-possessed.  I can imagine it, sure, but I have direct firsthand experiences of certain other Bad Things--consequently they rate a lot higher on my list.

[Plaintiff]

almostinsane99 wrote...

Well, they might be a little irritated at the implication that mind control isn't traumatic similar to how people might be a little irritated when people say rape's not that big of an issue.

Well, then, as per usual, they're irritated at something they imagined, and not anything I actually said.

Well, except the rape thing. I am saying that. Rape is not even close to the "worst thing that can ever happen" to someone, and I think spouting such sentiments is actually seriously detrimental to the recovery of rape victims.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 30 septembre 2013 - 05:00 .

[Silfren]

almostinsane99 wrote...

Well, they might be a little irritated at the implication that mind control isn't traumatic similar to how people might be a little irritated when people say rape's not that big of an issue.

Maybe the arguments start with statements like "I think X people would probably hate X more," which is the kind of statement kind of guaranteed to derail the discussion into a debate over whether a given fate is really that bad.  I can say I'm not at all a fan of people who like to say that they're just certain that most people in Thedas would kill to be part of the Circles/they'd kill their own mother to live in that kind of awesome comfort.  Making presumptions about the moral positions of entire masses of people can be kind of annoying.

Modifié par Silfren, 30 septembre 2013 - 04:57 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Rakia Time wrote...

The only thing i hope doesn't happen is me being forced to achieve a compromise between the two sides, now it should be an option, but so should be helping either side win even if the consequences are worse than the compromise option

You will not get this. The Save Import prevents even the notion of it being considered. 

Do you really think DA4 will entertain two world scenarios, one where Mages are all locked in towers, and one where they are not?

Think for a second just how impossible that would be. They would have to have completely different NPCs, quests, city designs, etc. It's impossible. DA4 will sweep the entire decision under the rug (assuming, of course, it is offered tomthebplayer in DA:I). And the most likely way that is possible is a forced compromise of Mages/Templars working together to keep things as safe and free as possible.

I'm not saying that is my personal preference... it is just the only logical one, given the design constraints. If Bioware ditched the Save Import function? Then it's open season on anything happening, since they could just set their own canon from one game to the next and create a truly unique world that really dives deep into such a possibility as true Mage freedom. But because they have to create a sequel that must work coherently between these two very disparate scenarios, then a forced middle ground is the most likely outcome.

Huzzah for the Save Import and allowing us to carry our personal world states from one game to the next!

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 30 septembre 2013 - 05:02 .

[Senya]

Plaintiff wrote...

almostinsane99 wrote...

Well, they might be a little irritated at the implication that mind control isn't traumatic similar to how people might be a little irritated when people say rape's not that big of an issue.

Well, then, as per usual, they're irritated at something they imagined, and not anything I actually said.

I'm sure you can sympathise with them then.

Silfren wrote...

almostinsane99 wrote...

Well,
they might be a little irritated at the implication that mind control
isn't traumatic similar to how people might be a little irritated when
people say rape's not that big of an issue.

Maybe the
arguments start with statements like "I think X people would probably
hate X more," which is the kind of statement kind of guaranteed to
derail the discussion into a debate over whether a given fate is really
that bad.  I can say I'm not at all a fan of people who like to say that
they're just certain that most people in Thedas would kill to be part
of the Circles/they'd kill their own mother to live in that kind of
awesome comfort.  Making presumptions about the moral positions of
entire masses of people can be kind of annoying.

True. But, I suppose it's unavoidable in these forums. People are pro-Templar, pro-Mage, or pro-something else.

[addiction21]

Silfren wrote...

I can say I'm not at all a fan of people who like to say that they're just certain that most people in Thedas would kill to be part of the Circles/they'd kill their own mother to live in that kind of awesome comfort.  Making presumptions about the moral positions of entire masses of people can be kind of annoying.

People are saying that? would you mind linking or quoting to it?

[SeptimusMagistos]

EntropicAngel wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Options are good. I'm just saying: if the plot of the game ends up being 'help mages and templars come to a compromise' and that compromise is anything less than amazing and satisfactory to both sides (or at least to me)? I'm not buying it. I'm just not interested in playing a game about putting the mages back in Circles.

I can tell you right now, that is almost certain to happen. There's absolutely no way they can truly please both sides. Their opinions are literally opposites. You're going to be forced to accept compromise--it's going to happen.

Disappointing. If that ends up being the case, I'll probably end up bowing out of the series.

[Degenerate Rakia Time]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Rakia Time wrote...

The only thing i hope doesn't happen is me being forced to achieve a compromise between the two sides, now it should be an option, but so should be helping either side win even if the consequences are worse than the compromise option

You will not get this. The Save Import prevents even the notion of it being considered. 

Do you really think DA4 will entertain two world scenarios, one where Mages are all locked in towers, and one where they are not?

Think for a second just how impossible that would be. They would have to have completely different NPCs, quests, city designs, etc. It's impossible. DA4 will sweep the entire decision under the rug. And the most likely way that is possible is a forced compromise of Mages/Templars working together to keep things as safe and free as possible.

I'm not saying that is my personal preference... it is just the only logical one, given the design constraints. If Bioware ditched the Save Import function? Then it's open season on anything happening, since they could just set their own canon from one game to the next and create a truly unique world that really dives deep into such a possibility as true Mage freedom. But because they have to create a sequel that must work coherently between these two very disparate scenarios, then a forced middle ground is the most likely outcome.

Huzzah for the Save Import and allowing us to carry our personal world states from one game to the next!

I completely forgot about importing....guess i went brain dead for a minute...but yeah, you're right


a guy can dream though 

[Plaintiff]

Far from reaching a middle ground, I suspect the issue will not be resolved at all.

[Fast Jimmy]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Options are good. I'm just saying: if the plot of the game ends up being 'help mages and templars come to a compromise' and that compromise is anything less than amazing and satisfactory to both sides (or at least to me)? I'm not buying it. I'm just not interested in playing a game about putting the mages back in Circles.

I can tell you right now, that is almost certain to happen. There's absolutely no way they can truly please both sides. Their opinions are literally opposites. You're going to be forced to accept compromise--it's going to happen.

Disappointing. If that ends up being the case, I'll probably end up bowing out of the series.

Which is why I have extolled the virtues of an import-less system for years now. It leads to unsustainability in the series, both in terms of longevity as well as player agency. 

[Plaintiff]

I'm fine with Dragon Age not lasting forever.

[Senya]

Plaintiff wrote...

Far from reaching a middle ground, I suspect the issue will not be resolved at all.

Perhaps that will happen. Bioware certainly has their work cut out for them.

Modifié par almostinsane99, 30 septembre 2013 - 05:06 .

[ScarMK]

Fast Jimmy wrote...


Which is why I have extolled the virtues of an import-less system for years now. It leads to unsustainability in the series, both in terms of longevity as well as player agency. 

But..we NEED previous characters to show up and give us a wink so our choices will matter! 

[Silfren]

addiction21 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I can say I'm not at all a fan of people who like to say that they're just certain that most people in Thedas would kill to be part of the Circles/they'd kill their own mother to live in that kind of awesome comfort.  Making presumptions about the moral positions of entire masses of people can be kind of annoying.

People are saying that? would you mind linking or quoting to it?

One person has said it. I'm not going to link or quote them because I'm not interested in having THAT discussion yet again, not here.  But yes, there is one person who is convinced that people who live in sh*t conditions would indeed commit familial murder if it gave them the chance to live in Circle splendor.

[cjones91]

Plaintiff wrote...

I'm fine with Dragon Age not lasting forever.

Agreed,it's better for DA to end after a certain number a games instead of wearing out it's welcome.

[Senya]

I suppose that is true. Or, they could skip a couple ages and start "Griffon Age".

[Ianamus]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Rakia Time wrote...

The only thing i hope doesn't happen is me being forced to achieve a compromise between the two sides, now it should be an option, but so should be helping either side win even if the consequences are worse than the compromise option

You will not get this. The Save Import prevents even the notion of it being considered. 

Do you really think DA4 will entertain two world scenarios, one where Mages are all locked in towers, and one where they are not?

Think for a second just how impossible that would be. They would have to have completely different NPCs, quests, city designs, etc. It's impossible. DA4 will sweep the entire decision under the rug (assuming, of course, it is offered tomthebplayer in DA:I). And the most likely way that is possible is a forced compromise of Mages/Templars working together to keep things as safe and free as possible.

And this isn't even getting into whether or not the Inquisitor should even have the ability to change the outcome of the war so drastically in the first place. 

Even at the height of their power I doubt the Inquisition as a whole would have the ability to either completely remove the entire Mage rebellion or the entire Templar organization, particuarly not with all the other issues they will have to deal with, like the demon invasion. 

Maybe for once the player shouldn't have complete control over how a war that is much larger than their character plays out. 

[Silfren]

EJ107 wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Rakia Time wrote...

The only thing i hope doesn't happen is me being forced to achieve a compromise between the two sides, now it should be an option, but so should be helping either side win even if the consequences are worse than the compromise option

You will not get this. The Save Import prevents even the notion of it being considered. 

Do you really think DA4 will entertain two world scenarios, one where Mages are all locked in towers, and one where they are not?

Think for a second just how impossible that would be. They would have to have completely different NPCs, quests, city designs, etc. It's impossible. DA4 will sweep the entire decision under the rug (assuming, of course, it is offered tomthebplayer in DA:I). And the most likely way that is possible is a forced compromise of Mages/Templars working together to keep things as safe and free as possible.

And this isn't even getting into whether or not the Inquisitor should even have the ability to change the outcome of the war so drastically in the first place. 

Even at the height of their power I doubt the Inquisition as a whole would have the ability to either completely remove the entire Mage rebellion or the entire Templar organization, particuarly not with all the other issues they will have to deal with, like the demon invasion. 

Maybe for once the player shouldn't have complete control over how a war that is much larger than their character plays out. 

I have a feeling that hostilities will be put aside simply because the tear in the Fade kind of requires it.  I don't think the issue will be resolved, either.  But I don't think--and I hope--that mages will be going back into Circles when the dust settles.  Just because the war itself may end doesn't necessarily mean that the question of mage freedom will be resolved.

Edited for clarification

Modifié par Silfren, 30 septembre 2013 - 05:23 .

[PinkysPain]

EntropicAngel wrote...
I can tell you right now, that is almost certain to happen. There's absolutely no way they can truly please both sides. Their opinions are literally opposites. You're going to be forced to accept compromise--it's going to happen.

Assuming they want to end the series I can think of a way to please both sides, by going to the black city and fundamentally changing the way the world operates.

Pro-mage ending :  Strengthen the veil to the point there are no more posessions ... mages are still potential WMDs, so some problems remain but one important argument for their close scrutiny disappears.

Pro-templar ending : Strengthen the veil to the point Thedas is cut off from magic ... magic is gone for the world, removing one potential weapon, but also removing some wonder and healing magic from the world.

The only people who can't be pleased this way are the grim derp crowd, who get their kicks on suffering and status quo preserval who feel finding solutions to problems isn't realistic ... but **** the lot of them.

Modifié par PinkysPain, 30 septembre 2013 - 05:33 .

[LobselVith8]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

I sincerely hope this doesn't mean we end up being railroaded into a half-hearted 'compromise' where the mages sell out their freedom for nicer accommodations and an hour's exercise outside.

I'm well aware of the issues total mage freedom would present. I still want to do it. 

I don't have any interest in restoring the status quo of the Chantry controlled Circles, either. I'm sure the developers are well aware of the fact that some players dislike the idea of the protagonist being railroaded into helping the Chantry or the templars, given that they have responded to these concerns in different media.

[EmperorSahlertz]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Options are good. I'm just saying: if the plot of the game ends up being 'help mages and templars come to a compromise' and that compromise is anything less than amazing and satisfactory to both sides (or at least to me)? I'm not buying it. I'm just not interested in playing a game about putting the mages back in Circles.

I can tell you right now, that is almost certain to happen. There's absolutely no way they can truly please both sides. Their opinions are literally opposites. You're going to be forced to accept compromise--it's going to happen.

Disappointing. If that ends up being the case, I'll probably end up bowing out of the series.

The issue most certainly won't be resolved ever. Having the amges outside of the Circles, allow for BioWare to include mages in many more encounters, without having to ignore lore. So that would be the gameplay reason. The Lore reason would be, that a war between the two factions, satisfies all fans. The pro-mages will be happy that they can continue their fight for what they believe in, and so can the pro-Templars. This of course also means that neither side will ever be destroyed, since they will be integral to continueing the conflict, which has become a central point of Dragon Age. So don't expect the issue to ever be fully resolved.