2497 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

Yea, me too. I think a lot of the people who thinks that it will focus majorly on the mage-templar conflcit, is going to be disappointed.

[MWImexico]

Maybe the mages will go back to the circles (no matter what we do) but we'll still get the possibility to choose in which conditions? Like strengthen the power of the chantry and the templars on them or give them the possibility to take care of themselves alone (or with the help of the templars if we choose the compromise solution). I suppose, if the chantry or the templars are to weakened, they won't be able to refuse the demands of the mages. Maybe it will be not that difficult to create a sequel for DA:I where the state of the mage is almost the same, they will still be in the circle and available, the question will be : in which hands did you place the power?

Modifié par MWImexico, 30 septembre 2013 - 07:16 .

[Silfren]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
I didn't say 'most'. But nobody should be failing the Harrowing at all, not if they're being properly trained, as you claim they are.

Wow.  There are such things as dumb and weak people.  This is like saying "if even 1 child flunks out, the public schools are failing!"  Nevermind that that kid is abused, addicted to drugs, and has an IQ of 85.

Ideally, we respond to such children by giving them the tools they need to achieve their fullest potential, we don't give them the option of either being thrown to the wolves or psychically castrated.

[Uccio]

Mages going back to circles is such a lame way to go about it. Usually revolt means that there is only one way to go, victory or defeat. Loosers en up in graves. History has proven that there hardly is middle ground in such extreme situations. Slaves usually do not like to have the collar installed back to their necks even the slave trader promised not to use whip anymore, unless he really really have to.

[Volus Warlord]

Plaintiff wrote...
I didn't say 'most'. But nobody should be failing the Harrowing at all, not if they're being properly trained, as you claim they are.

If everyone passes, the test proves nothing.

Modifié par Volus Warlord, 30 septembre 2013 - 07:12 .

[Dominus]

Yea, me too. I think a lot of the people who thinks that it will focus majorly on the mage-templar conflcit, is going to be disappointed.

It's too easy to speculate - all I gathered from the article is that the developers have discussed the topic a good deal, and aren't aiming for a clean-cut black & white(or a simplified grey i.e. Cerberus in ME3) sense of morality for DA:I on the mage-templar dilemma and the resolutions intended.

If everyone passes, the test proves nothing.

Someone eventually has to get the wizard's dunce cap.

Somehow I think we'll only be dealing with a microcosm of the Mage-Templar conflict again as we tackle the more existential threat of the torn veil.

Somewhat agree - It'd be fair to assume that the tear happens relatively early in the game, so the events involving the Mage-Templar dispute may only come in patches and pieces until some unknown event(s) later in the game.

Modifié par DominusVita, 30 septembre 2013 - 07:43 .

[Ianamus]

Ukki wrote...

Mages going back to circles is such a lame way to go about it. Usually revolt means that there is only one way to go, victory or defeat. Loosers en up in graves. History has proven that there hardly is middle ground in such extreme situations. Slaves usually do not like to have the collar installed back to their necks even the slave trader promised not to use whip anymore, unless he really really have to.

Quite a large number of mages never even wanted to rebel in the first place though- getting the vote to pass was incredibly difficult, and very close. If just under half of the mages didn't want open conflict at all then a middle ground solution isn't too hard to believe, at least for some of the mages and templars. 

Modifié par EJ107, 30 septembre 2013 - 07:33 .

[MWImexico]

Volus Warlord wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
I didn't say 'most'. But nobody should be failing the Harrowing at all, not if they're being properly trained, as you claim they are.

If everyone passes, the test proves nothing.

This proves that apprentices are well trained, on the "accidental possession" cases at least.

Though I'm not sure it's possible, I guess it depends on the true reasons why the apprentices fail (in general). And if it's possible to do something about it. 

[eye basher]

All this fighting trying to pick one side or the other when is easier to remove the problem by just killing them all.

[Volus Warlord]

MWImexico wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
I didn't say 'most'. But nobody should be failing the Harrowing at all, not if they're being properly trained, as you claim they are.

If everyone passes, the test proves nothing.

This proves that apprentices are well trained, on the "accidental possession" cases at least.

Though I'm not sure it's possible, I guess it depends on the true reasons why the apprentices fail (in general). And if it's possible to do something about it. 

They fail because they go into the Fade and say "Possess me!" That much is pretty clear cut.

[Silfren]

Volus Warlord wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
I didn't say 'most'. But nobody should be failing the Harrowing at all, not if they're being properly trained, as you claim they are.

If everyone passes, the test proves nothing.

The test doesn't prove anything, period.  The Warden passes her Harrowing, but it doesn't stop her from falling prey to a Sloth Demon later.  If you take the test on the assumption that passing it somehow means you're immune to possession, then it's an automatic failure, because such a thing is not possible.

[Silfren]

Volus Warlord wrote...

MWImexico wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
I didn't say 'most'. But nobody should be failing the Harrowing at all, not if they're being properly trained, as you claim they are.

If everyone passes, the test proves nothing.

This proves that apprentices are well trained, on the "accidental possession" cases at least.

Though I'm not sure it's possible, I guess it depends on the true reasons why the apprentices fail (in general). And if it's possible to do something about it. 

They fail because they go into the Fade and say "Possess me!" That much is pretty clear cut.

If that were actually true, you would invalidate your own point.  There'd be no need for a test if the only reason mages ever get possessed is because they eagerly ask for it.  But no, it isn't true.  Apprentices go into the Fade having had it made VERY clear to them that if they are possessed, the templars will kill them.

[MWImexico]

Volus Warlord wrote...
....
They fail because they go into the Fade and say "Possess me!" That much is pretty clear cut.

I guess demons have some power of persuasion. Pharamond in Asunder seems surprised and shocked when he realises he wasn't able to resist the demon in the fade. He was a well intentioned person, a person who knew that demons are dangerous and yet he said yes. 

Modifié par MWImexico, 30 septembre 2013 - 07:58 .

[AresKeith]

Silfren wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
I didn't say 'most'. But nobody should be failing the Harrowing at all, not if they're being properly trained, as you claim they are.

If everyone passes, the test proves nothing.

The test doesn't prove anything, period.  The Warden passes her Harrowing, but it doesn't stop her from falling prey to a Sloth Demon later.  If you take the test on the assumption that passing it somehow means you're immune to possession, then it's an automatic failure, because such a thing is not possible.

Passing the Harrowing means that your atleast capable of not falling into temptation and resisting them

[Silfren]

AresKeith wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
I didn't say 'most'. But nobody should be failing the Harrowing at all, not if they're being properly trained, as you claim they are.

If everyone passes, the test proves nothing.

The test doesn't prove anything, period.  The Warden passes her Harrowing, but it doesn't stop her from falling prey to a Sloth Demon later.  If you take the test on the assumption that passing it somehow means you're immune to possession, then it's an automatic failure, because such a thing is not possible.

Passing the Harrowing means that your atleast capable of not falling into temptation and resisting them

No, not really.  What's the greater temptation facing you when you know full well that if you do let the demon possess you, the templars will kill you?  The test doesn't test a mage's ability to resist temptation, it tests their ability to defend themselves against a demon trying to overpower and possess them by force.

[Volus Warlord]

Silfren wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

MWImexico wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
I didn't say 'most'. But nobody should be failing the Harrowing at all, not if they're being properly trained, as you claim they are.

If everyone passes, the test proves nothing.

This proves that apprentices are well trained, on the "accidental possession" cases at least.

Though I'm not sure it's possible, I guess it depends on the true reasons why the apprentices fail (in general). And if it's possible to do something about it. 

They fail because they go into the Fade and say "Possess me!" That much is pretty clear cut.

If that were actually true, you would invalidate your own point.  There'd be no need for a test if the only reason mages ever get possessed is because they eagerly ask for it.  But no, it isn't true.  Apprentices go into the Fade having had it made VERY clear to them that if they are possessed, the templars will kill them.

Not really, no. Despite the warnings and the training, the failures still consent to demon possession in some form and thus they are failures.

And no, it would not invalidate the point. Not in the slightest. Ultimately, they will cave to the demons or they will not, and the Harrowing seperates the Mages from the Abominations.

[Silfren]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
I didn't say 'most'. But nobody should be failing the Harrowing at all, not if they're being properly trained, as you claim they are.

If everyone passes, the test proves nothing.

The test doesn't prove anything, period.  The Warden passes her Harrowing, but it doesn't stop her from falling prey to a Sloth Demon later.  If you take the test on the assumption that passing it somehow means you're immune to possession, then it's an automatic failure, because such a thing is not possible.

She did resist the sloth demon though.  She didn't become an abomination.  

Shyeah, no.  The sloth demon didn't TRY to possess her, or anyone.  The Warden was able to fight her way out later, but on the front end, the demon did indeed prove powerful enough to capture everyone.  Using the Harrowing as a one time pass/fail to see whether a mage can resist demons is extremely short-sighted.  It ignores the established fact that demons come in different levels of ability and power, just like people, among other things.

[Fishy]

I enjoyed when he talked about how the Warden mage is ''protected'' from what most mage has to go through. SO we can't really ''connect'' with the reality of most mage because we're the HERO.

For instance we can be a blood mage and nothing bad will happens to us. The same way we can use templar abilities, but we do not need lyrium and do not get addicted to it. because we're the hero.


Changing it would be sweet. Using blood magic having repercusion or using magery in a city. It's the same though as we know our hero won't die until the very end. So we know we can't fail and die horribly. We're protected by armor plot and thus choice are easy to take because we can't really fail them. It's easier to make choice when  we know nothing really bad might happens to our hero. At worse we can just reload a save game..


I would love a ''hardcore'' mode with only 1 save slot and permanent death.

Modifié par Suprez30, 30 septembre 2013 - 08:18 .

[Silfren]

Suprez30 wrote...

I enjoyed when he talked about how the Warden mage is ''protected'' from what most mage has to go through. SO we can't really ''connect'' with the reality of most mage because we're the HERO.

For instance we can be a blood mage and nothing bad will happens to us. The same way we can use templar abilities, but we do not need lyrium and do not get addicted to it. because we're the hero.


Changing it would be sweet. Using blood magic having repercusion or using magery in a city.

It would be kind of awesome to play a PC who, if you took the templar option, had class-specific content dealing with lyrium addiction.  Just like it would be cool to play a mage and actually see content addressing the question of demonic temptation being an ever-present reality.  

[Fast Jimmy]

MWImexico wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...
....
They fail because they go into the Fade and say "Possess me!" That much is pretty clear cut.

I guess demons have some power of persuasion. Pharamond in Asunder seems surprised and shocked when he realises he wasn't able to resist the demon in the fade. He was a well intentioned person, a person who knew that demons are dangerous and yet he said yes. 

This is, exactly, the point.

Nearly every one of Hawke's companions could fall prey to the seduction of the demons when you venture to The Fade in DA2. Even Merril, who had dealt with demons before quite carefully. If she was trained enough to be a Keeper, but still succumbed to a demon's temptation, then what does that say A) about a demon's ability to manipulate a Mage (or any being in general, given Fenris and Isabella also fall for their ruses) and about the lack of success of other forms of mage training, such as Keeper training, in resisting demons in the Fade?

[Dominus]

Not really, no. Despite the warnings and the training, the failures still consent to demon possession in some form and thus they are failures.

I'd classify that less as consensual posession, and more of an involuntary submission. You could argue that he/she consents on a subconscious level. Fast Jimmy's post above also covers that well.

All this fighting trying to pick one side or the other when is easier to remove the problem by just killing them all.

It's a possibility.

Modifié par DominusVita, 30 septembre 2013 - 08:19 .