2497 réponses à ce sujet

[Dermain]

BlueMagitek wrote...

I was more annoyed that the Exile was a LSF, when the story doesn't make sense without The Handmaiden. ~_~"

It's my understanding that the Disciple/Handmaiden were supposed to be present regardless of player gender, but was cut along with a ton of other things. That seems to be the standard for Obsidian sadly.

Wozearly wrote...
Of course the story will be weaker if you follow the path of being perfectly successful. But who is forcing you to do that? Do you really need every bonus available, or to do the right thing by every companion? Is that "best ending" for your character in gameplay terms actually the most interesting conclusion to their personal story? 

Its entirely up to you if you deny yourself the narrative power of the imperfect path and all of its negative consequences. I think you're missing out on storytelling opportunities that Bioware chose to provide you with...

I'd rather think of the optimum endings occuring due to better guidance by some of the companions. Take the situation with Connor. After the options have been explained (Insert companion/player name here) may indicate that the desire demon could cause more of a problem while the player travels to the Circle. Wynne could then say that she could set up another barrier (similar to the one in the circle tower), or use the Faith spirit to help control the demon. The player then gets on his/her horse (since I refuse to believe that the blight was fought completely on foot) and rides off to the Circle. This of course does not necesarrily mean that there aren't anymore causalties because of the trip, but it appears that way since Redcliffe does not have many NPCs to begin with.

If the player decides on a different course of action Alistair/Wynne/Leliana oppose the decision, and attempt to persuade the player otherwise. The player could then be convinced, or still carry on with the less optimal path because it is less risky. This of course was not fully present in the game, but it is still a valid roleplay reason for the optimal result occuring besides just "metagaming for the best solution".

[leaguer of one]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Uldred screamed in terror as his last action before his possession. Doesn't really sound voluntary to me.

More like he was surprized by it.

[LobselVith8]

leaguer of one wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Uldred screamed in terror as his last action before his possession. Doesn't really sound voluntary to me.

More like he was surprized by it. 

Uldred summoned more demons than he could control (which happened to Avernus), and he was overwhelmed. Niall makes it clear he was forcibly possessed (like Sophia Dryden).

[leaguer of one]

LobselVith8 wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Uldred screamed in terror as his last action before his possession. Doesn't really sound voluntary to me.

More like he was surprized by it. 

Uldred summoned more demons than he could control (which happened to Avernus), and he was overwhelmed. Niall makes it clear he was forcibly possessed (like Sophia Dryden).

1. Sophia Dryden was long dead before her body was controled by demons.

2.I presonally believe it was a mistake but he ran with it once it happened.

[The Elder King]

From how Niall told the events, it seems to me that Uldred's screams were of terror/pain, not surprise.
Though unless a dev states what happened, we don't have a way to know for sure if the possession was forced or not.

[Ieldra]

@OP:
Thanks for crossposting this here. I may not always agree with DG (only almost always, LOL) but he's always worth reading. It's good to see that they're not trying to paint one side as the bad guys. I am pro-mage, for reasons that have little to do with freedom (though it is a bonus that I can root for that at the same time), but if the templar side didn't have a point any choice between them would be meaningless.

However, intentions and their realization are two different things. Subtlety has never been the strong point of Bioware games, to put it carefully, and how things went in DA2 is indicative of that. I do hope they can realize more "greyness" in DAI, but I won't believe it until I have played the game.

[dragonflight288]

leaguer of one wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Uldred screamed in terror as his last action before his possession. Doesn't really sound voluntary to me.

More like he was surprized by it. 

Uldred summoned more demons than he could control (which happened to Avernus), and he was overwhelmed. Niall makes it clear he was forcibly possessed (like Sophia Dryden).

1. Sophia Dryden was long dead before her body was controled by demons.

Where is that written or shown? We see her fighting Arland's men, and Avernus summoning demons. We see him lose control of the demons and Sophia shouts out "Avernus!" Next we see her, she's possessed and had been for centuries.

[Lotion Soronarr]

TheRedVipress wrote...
The Chantry and the elves:
First you have Shartan, and how the chantry chose to thank him for his bravery, all because an exalted march that was called for unlikely reasons (the official chantry reason that is).

What does that have to do with Shartan? Nothing. He was long dead by then and and I wouldnt' call what was happening "unlikely reasons"

Then you have the chantry acting all patronising and hypocritical towards the elves in their alienage, they will come to tend to the elves "spiritual needs" like marriage, but won't lift a finger to actually help them or protect them.
(the only templars you see there, are those pursuing magic)

The Chantry neither can nor will help everyone. No one has those kinds of resources.
And, that Reverend Mother did try to help in the alianage, but Vaughn...well, nobles tend to ignore things like morals.

Let's also not forget that if it weren't for the Chantry demanding all nations allow elves to live in cities, the elven race would probably be far worse off.

Crime investigation:
The chantry seems more than capable when it comes to pursuing it's own goals.
But suddenly the need to police inside corruption is too hard and complicated?
More likely that this corruption is acceptable to those in power.

Some proof would be nice.

Circle "adjustment":
You don't "adjust" a broken system. You make a new one.
This is the system that led to the events we are facing now.

I don't see it as broken.
That the split happen is a series of unfortunate events.

Treat someone like a dangerous animal, you will get one.
Treat someone like you would a human being, and you will get a human.

Yeah...not really.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Silfren wrote...
Ideally, we respond to such children by giving them the tools they need to achieve their fullest potential, we don't give them the option of either being thrown to the wolves or psychically castrated.

What magical tools you speak off?
You kinda sound like you have all the answers and know how to "fix" everything.

Mages going back to circles is such a lame way to go about it. Usually
revolt means that there is only one way to go, victory or defeat.
Loosers en up in graves. History has proven that there hardly is middle
ground in such extreme situations. Slaves usually do not like to have
the collar installed back to their necks even the slave trader promised
not to use whip anymore, unless he really really have to.

Not really.
Loosers might end up in the graves, but since new mages are born, there is no total anihilation.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Silfren wrote...
It would be kind of awesome to play a PC who, if you took the templar option, had class-specific content dealing with lyrium addiction.  Just like it would be cool to play a mage and actually see content addressing the question of demonic temptation being an ever-present reality. 

Addiction is easier to do than temptation tough...How do you tempt the player?
With the player being detached and having the power of reload, even the developers are very limtied there.

[Laughing_Man]

@ Lotion Soronnar

About the "exalted" march on the Dales, check wiki, you will see what I mean about unlikely reasons.
Compare the official chantry reason to the reason the elves gave, and try to think honestly about what is more likely.

The Chantry thanked Shartan for his bravery by erasing him from the chant and making everything about him heresy.
It's a classic really.

There are alot of reasons to do evil and not try to do good - for everyone.
The fact is, if you don't care about and respect the rights of the innocents - all innocents, you lose the right to complain when the other faction harms your innocents.
And if you think that the might of the chantry gives it the right to do whatever it wants to the few, you are just another version of Tavinter.

Hmm... maybe the mages should look for a new Andraste.

Modifié par TheRedVipress, 01 octobre 2013 - 05:06 .

[Laughing_Man]

Lotion Soronnar wrote..
Not really.
Loosers might end up in the graves, but since new mages are born, there is no total anihilation.

Funny. Seems like you think that there is some certainty that you can actually do it, make the mages lose.
What if you need to lose most of your soldiers to kill the mages? What if the veil will just be torn down completely because of all the bloodshed?

You ignore the fact that this is exactly the kind of atitude that will make Anders the Abomination into Anders the Martyr.

[Heimdall]

TheRedVipress wrote...
@ Lotion Soronnar
About the "exalted" march on the Dales, check wiki, you will see what I mean about unlikely reasons.
Compare to the official chantry reason to the reason the elves gave, and try to think honestly what is more likely.

The Chantry thanked Shartan for his bravery by erasing him from the chant and making everything about him heresy.
It's a classic really.

Personally I find it more likely that Orlais would go to war with the Dales if the elves attacked first rather than picking a fight while recovering from a Blight (Which the elves refused to take part in)

There are alot of reasons to do evil and not try to do good - for everyone.
The fact is, if you don't care about and respect the rights of the innocents - all innocents, you lose the right to complain when the other faction harms your innocents.

You've just described every faction in Thedas: Tevinter, Chantry, Circle Mages, Dalish Elves, everyone.  On each side there are those who would kill innocents to achieve their goals.  Even with that aside, your logic is bull****.  It's okay for the elves to kill human innocents because the Chantry killed elven innocents?  Really?

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 01 octobre 2013 - 05:10 .

[dragonflight288]

Not really.
Loosers might end up in the graves, but since new mages are born, there is no total anihilation.

That kind of attitude is the very thing that gives justification to Anders actions. That kind of attitude is just as much a monster as Tevinter, the Chantry at its worst, and abominations.

[MisterJB]

TheRedVipress wrote...
About the "exalted" march on the Dales, check wiki, you will see what I mean about unlikely reasons.
Compare the official chantry reason to the reason the elves gave, and try to think honestly about what is more likely.

Chantry Version: The elves didn't help us during the Second Blight which lead to increasing tensions. After they isolated themselves, we attempted to send missionaries, diplomats and merchants to extablish a cordial relation; unfortunately, all were turned down. Border conflicts eventually escalated to all out war after their attack on Red Crossing.

Elven version: The humans resented us because we placed our people first and didn't worship their god. First they sent missionaries and when these were refused, Templars. They took our home from us, the end.

One is very much in-tune with elven ideals (isolation) and reasonably describes how wars starts. The other would have us believe all of the war was fought over religion and ommits elven attrocities during the course of the war such as the sack of Val-Royeaux.
Now, you tell me which one sounds more likely.

The Chantry thanked Shartan for his bravery by erasing him from the chant and making everything about him heresy.
It's a classic really.

The elves thanked Andraste for her bravery by sacking the seat of her religion.

Hmm... maybe the mages should look for a new Andraste.

And after they find her, she'll quickly take up arms against them yet again.

[Xilizhra]

The elves thanked Andraste for her bravery by sacking the seat of her religion.

A religion that had become a perversion of everything she stood for... either that, or if she did intend it, she wasn't worth being remembered well.

And after they find her, she'll quickly take up arms against them yet again.

Unlikely, given that the original Andraste was probably a mage to begin with, and those mages in southern Thedas aren't being oppressed by other mages.

[Heimdall]

Xilizhra wrote....

And after they find her, she'll quickly take up arms against them yet again.

Unlikely, given that the original Andraste was probably a mage to begin with, and those mages in southern Thedas aren't being oppressed by other mages.

That's a theory, and though mildly intriguing, not a well supported one at that.

Speculating "What would Andraste do?" is pointless.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 01 octobre 2013 - 06:06 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

TheRedVipress wrote...

@ Lotion Soronnar

About the "exalted" march on the Dales, check wiki, you will see what I mean about unlikely reasons.
Compare the official chantry reason to the reason the elves gave, and try to think honestly about what is more likely.

The Chantry one.
The Dalish one is a mess of little historical value.

The Chantry thanked Shartan for his bravery by erasing him from the chant and making everything about him heresy.
It's a classic really.

More like to punish to treasanous elves, but still..not cool, I agree.
Poor sod had nothing to do with what his kin did.

There are alot of reasons to do evil and not try to do good - for everyone.
The fact is, if you don't care about and respect the rights of the innocents - all innocents, you lose the right to complain when the other faction harms your innocents.
And if you think that the might of the chantry gives it the right to do whatever it wants to the few, you are just another version of Tavinter.

Not really.
The Chantry locks up mages to protect mundanes (and mages somewhat too), so there can be no comparison with tevinter. Unless you want to argue that reasons do not matter at all.

But if you have a way to deal with mages that will make sure NO innocents die, I'm all ears.

Funny. Seems like you think that there is some certainty that you can actually do it, make the mages lose.
What
if you need to lose most of your soldiers to kill the mages? What if
the veil will just be torn down completely because of all the bloodshed?

1) Not really. I was replying to the notion of "total anihilation of all mages". That is what I find highly unlikely. Not only because most templars (Lambert included) do not seek to kill them, but because many mages don't want to fight and didn't want to split anyway.

2) There aren't that many mages ya know. And I doubt they all bunch up nicely in one place anyway.

[BlazingSpeed]

As long as the Chantries beliefs about mages and magic exist then nothing will change.

Just last night I replayed the War council meeting between Loghain and Calian when Uldred is about to speak about the signal beacon.

Then that Chantry mother suddenly rushes towards Uldred and yells at him before he can even speak.

Any change in the Chantries views and policies on magic will be very difficult Bioware choose a very good location (Orlais the Chantry capital...) for all of this to happen.

Modifié par BlazingSpeed, 01 octobre 2013 - 11:27 .

[Hellion Rex]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

TheRedVipress wrote...

@ Lotion Soronnar

About the "exalted" march on the Dales, check wiki, you will see what I mean about unlikely reasons.
Compare the official chantry reason to the reason the elves gave, and try to think honestly about what is more likely.

The Chantry one.
The Dalish one is a mess of little historical value.

The Chantry thanked Shartan for his bravery by erasing him from the chant and making everything about him heresy.
It's a classic really.

More like to punish to treasanous elves, but still..not cool, I agree.
Poor sod had nothing to do with what his kin did.

There are alot of reasons to do evil and not try to do good - for everyone.
The fact is, if you don't care about and respect the rights of the innocents - all innocents, you lose the right to complain when the other faction harms your innocents.
And if you think that the might of the chantry gives it the right to do whatever it wants to the few, you are just another version of Tavinter.

Not really.
The Chantry locks up mages to protect mundanes (and mages somewhat too), so there can be no comparison with tevinter. Unless you want to argue that reasons do not matter at all.

But if you have a way to deal with mages that will make sure NO innocents die, I'm all ears.

Funny. Seems like you think that there is some certainty that you can actually do it, make the mages lose.
What
if you need to lose most of your soldiers to kill the mages? What if
the veil will just be torn down completely because of all the bloodshed?

1) Not really. I was replying to the notion of "total anihilation of all mages". That is what I find highly unlikely. Not only because most templars (Lambert included) do not seek to kill them, but because many mages don't want to fight and didn't want to split anyway.

2) There aren't that many mages ya know. And I doubt they all bunch up nicely in one place anyway.

Morrigan talked of a world beyond the Fade. She glimpsed it in the Eluvian. It's just food for thought, but what if the mages were to try and access this world and go there to live?

[Hellion Rex]

BlazingSpeed wrote...

As long as the Chantries beliefs about mages and magic exist then nothing will change.

Just last night I replayed the War council meeting between Loghain and Calian when Uldred is about to speak about the signal beacon.

Then that Chantry mother suddenly rushes towards Uldred and yells at him before he can even speak.

Any change in the Chantries views and policies on magic will be very difficult Bioware choose a very good location (Orlais the Chantry capital...) for all of this to happen.

That is very true. Unless the Chantry changes and adapts its views on magic, we are going to keep running into rebellion after rebellion. Although, I would advocate that Justinia, in my opinion, can be a middle ground. She has shown kindness to the mages, and even helped the White Spire mages escape at the end of Asunder.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

TheRedVipress wrote...

@ Lotion Soronnar

About the "exalted" march on the Dales, check wiki, you will see what I mean about unlikely reasons.
Compare the official chantry reason to the reason the elves gave, and try to think honestly about what is more likely.

The Chantry one.
The Dalish one is a mess of little historical value.

Because it paints the Chantry and the templars in a bad light.

[BlueMagitek]

The Dalish one is oral history told from at least one biased storyteller, and would be less reputable than surviving documentation of the era.

[Hellion Rex]

greengoron89 wrote...

I think they should just tranquil all the mages like I suggested in DA:O. Then there would be no need for Templars.

Everybody wins... well, sort of.

No more joining potion then for the Grey Wardens. It requires magic to create, IIRC.