2497 réponses à ce sujet

[BlueMagitek]

If you kill all the Darkspawn, there won't be a need for Grey Wardens because the archdemon soul would have nowhere to go.

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

The Dalish one is oral history told from at least one biased storyteller, and would be less reputable than surviving documentation of the era.

The Dalish is oral and written history. Sorry to disappoint you.

[Dabrikishaw]

Sure.

[dragonflight288]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

TheRedVipress wrote...

@ Lotion Soronnar

About the "exalted" march on the Dales, check wiki, you will see what I mean about unlikely reasons.
Compare the official chantry reason to the reason the elves gave, and try to think honestly about what is more likely.

The Chantry one.
The Dalish one is a mess of little historical value.

Because it paints the Chantry and the templars in a bad light.

And the Dalish point of view is also the most likely one, considering the attitudes of the Dalish is isolation. Orlais and the Chantry has the greater motivation and the greater prize in the event of success.

[dragonflight288]

BlueMagitek wrote...

If you kill all the Darkspawn, there won't be a need for Grey Wardens because the archdemon soul would have nowhere to go.

All right. You can help me rally all the surface nations together to build a massive army, go to Orzammar or Kal-Sharok, and help slaughter the darkspawn completely. The dwarves will love you for it....although the surface probably won't because many consider darkspawn to be nothing more than a dwarven problem except during blights when the darkspawn go to the surface.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

BlueMagitek wrote...

If you kill all the Darkspawn, there won't be a need for Grey Wardens because the archdemon soul would have nowhere to go.

Much easier said than done.

[Heimdall]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
The Chantry one.
The Dalish one is a mess of little historical value.

Because it paints the Chantry and the templars in a bad light.

More because it makes sense and it fits.  The Dalish are characteristically isolationist, therefore it's not unlikely they would react badly to border disputes(Understandably and likely initiated by local humans unhappy with their stance during the Blight), and it makes little sense for anyone in Orlais to initiate a war with their strength spent just after a Blight, especially with a nation that sat out of it.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 02 octobre 2013 - 02:17 .

[dragonflight288]

Lord Aesir wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
The Chantry one.
The Dalish one is a mess of little historical value.

Because it paints the Chantry and the templars in a bad light.

More because it makes sense and it fits.  The Dalish are characteristically isolationist, and it makes little sense for anyone in Orlais to initiate a war with their strength spent just after a Blight.

It makes perfect sense. They were just ravaged by a blight and are desperate for fertile soil and land. Codex entries say that Orlais was looking to invade Nevarra, but couldn't because the Dales were in the way.

[Heimdall]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
The Chantry one.
The Dalish one is a mess of little historical value.

Because it paints the Chantry and the templars in a bad light.

More because it makes sense and it fits.  The Dalish are characteristically isolationist, and it makes little sense for anyone in Orlais to initiate a war with their strength spent just after a Blight.

It makes perfect sense. They were just ravaged by a blight and are desperate for fertile soil and land. Codex entries say that Orlais was looking to invade Nevarra, but couldn't because the Dales were in the way.

:huh:Check your maps, the Dales are on the other side of the ocean from Nevarra.  They don't even share a border.

If they wanted to take lands, it defies logic that they would take them from the one nation whose armies are untouched.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 02 octobre 2013 - 02:27 .

[InvincibleHero]

How can there be a revolution mages are hundreds maybe a few thousand out of say a million inhabitants. Yes they are powerful but slings and arrows will strike them down quite easily. A cultural revolution might be a possibility but the status quo has quite the inertia and the common folk are unlikely to get behind any perceived or real mistreatment of mages.

I do think mages get a raw deal but it is an imperfect solution to the problem. What better options could or should there be? Less stringent regulation means more cost in lives and what not as more abominations/demons from the veil break through etc or mages abuse their power come into existence.

One possibility I would not oppose is a group of mages tasked with policing magic activity overseen by Templars as a sort of joint task force instead of locking them away in towers. use them as a resource for good welfare.

[In Exile]

dragonflight288 wrote...
And the Dalish point of view is also the most likely one, considering the attitudes of the Dalish is isolation. Orlais and the Chantry has the greater motivation and the greater prize in the event of success.

What? The Dalish have every interest to paint themselves as the oppressed. Even if it were true, do you honestly think a people's narrative would be "we started an aggressive violent war of conquest for racist and selfish reason, but decry an excessive response?" There's literally no group ever that's done that. 

The attittude of the Dalish is Dalish - not even elven - exceptionalism. Their accounts may well all be true, but that's very different from saying there's no reason for it to be biased. There's as much reason as Orlais for it to be biased pragmatically, and the Dalish also have unique psychological reasons to be biased. 

[dragonflight288]

Lord Aesir wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
The Chantry one.
The Dalish one is a mess of little historical value.

Because it paints the Chantry and the templars in a bad light.

More because it makes sense and it fits.  The Dalish are characteristically isolationist, and it makes little sense for anyone in Orlais to initiate a war with their strength spent just after a Blight.

It makes perfect sense. They were just ravaged by a blight and are desperate for fertile soil and land. Codex entries say that Orlais was looking to invade Nevarra, but couldn't because the Dales were in the way.

:huh:Check your maps, the Dales are on the other side of the ocean from Nevarra.  They don't even share a border.

If they wanted to take lands, it defies logic that they would take them from the one nation whose armies are untouched.

*shrug* That's what the codex says. And militarily, it would make sense.

Say you're a general, and you want to launch a military force to occupy another country, or invade it. You would need several thousand soldiers, supply lines, forward outposts, and the ability to maintain arms and armor. Going from Orlais to Nevarra is a long trip, and would need to go across the Waking Sea.

To that end, they would need lumber, and plenty of it to build a fleet of ships to house their soldiers. And where is the place close to Orlais that has the lumber? That would be the Dales.

But if Orlais had the ships already and left, it would be foolish in the extreme to send all soldiers out and leave your own borders undefended. Based on what we know from the lore, Orlais/the Chantry and the Dales were having border disputes and their relationship was deteriorating. If you wanted to launch an invasion north, it would be quite stupid if there is a potentially hostile force to the southeast. Therefore, the Dales were in the way.

[dragonflight288]

In Exile wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
And the Dalish point of view is also the most likely one, considering the attitudes of the Dalish is isolation. Orlais and the Chantry has the greater motivation and the greater prize in the event of success.

What? The Dalish have every interest to paint themselves as the oppressed. Even if it were true, do you honestly think a people's narrative would be "we started an aggressive violent war of conquest for racist and selfish reason, but decry an excessive response?" There's literally no group ever that's done that. 

The attittude of the Dalish is Dalish - not even elven - exceptionalism. Their accounts may well all be true, but that's very different from saying there's no reason for it to be biased. There's as much reason as Orlais for it to be biased pragmatically, and the Dalish also have unique psychological reasons to be biased. 

The Dalish had an interest in being isolated in an attempt to restore they immortality, or so they believed. They turned away all human contact after the Dales had been established.

Orlais had just suffered a blight, and they needed fertile ground for crops, something the Dales had plenty of. The Chantry teaches that the Chant must be sung from all corners of the world in order to bring the Maker back, so they wanted to spread their influence, and didn't like the fact that their missionaries were turned away.

I have no doubt that some elves got really angry, lost loved ones or something, and some radical group may or may not have been involved in the sacking of Red Crossing, but Orlais and the Chantry had the greater motivation for the war.

[TEWR]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
The Chantry one.
The Dalish one is a mess of little historical value.

Because it paints the Chantry and the templars in a bad light.

More because it makes sense and it fits.  The Dalish are characteristically isolationist, and it makes little sense for anyone in Orlais to initiate a war with their strength spent just after a Blight.

It makes perfect sense. They were just ravaged by a blight and are desperate for fertile soil and land. Codex entries say that Orlais was looking to invade Nevarra, but couldn't because the Dales were in the way.

Free Marches, actually, IIRC.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 octobre 2013 - 05:12 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

At the time Nevarra was part of the Free Marches. Either way though, the Dales is not in the way of the Free Marches from Orlais.

[dragonflight288]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
The Chantry one.
The Dalish one is a mess of little historical value.

Because it paints the Chantry and the templars in a bad light.

More because it makes sense and it fits.  The Dalish are characteristically isolationist, and it makes little sense for anyone in Orlais to initiate a war with their strength spent just after a Blight.

It makes perfect sense. They were just ravaged by a blight and are desperate for fertile soil and land. Codex entries say that Orlais was looking to invade Nevarra, but couldn't because the Dales were in the way.

Free Marches, actually, IIRC.

My bad.

[dragonflight288]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

At the time Nevarra was part of the Free Marches. Either way though, the Dales is not in the way of the Free Marches from Orlais.

Read above for my theory on the military campaign.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Orlais has a land border with Nevarra/The Western Free Marches. There would be no need to involve a navy. But even if they did, I can't imagine there's no lumber in the entire country they could use.

[Laughing_Man]

Lord Aesir wrote...
You've just described every faction in Thedas: Tevinter, Chantry, Circle Mages, Dalish Elves, everyone.  On each side there are those who would kill innocents to achieve their goals.  Even with that aside, your logic is bull****.  It's okay for the elves to kill human innocents because the Chantry killed elven innocents?  Really?

Point, missed it by a mile.
Innocents are always harmed during a war, that's the reality.
Is it "okay" to kill innocents because your side lost innocents? Of course not.

Was Anders "right" in blowing up a chantry full of innocents? Of course not, and he died for it in my game.
However, things don't happen in a vacuum, and if the chantry thinks that it perfectly ok to take newborns from mothers, and to treat mages the way they treat them, an "Anders" is just the logical thing that will happen at some point.

[dragonflight288]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Orlais has a land border with Nevarra/The Western Free Marches. There would be no need to involve a navy. But even if they did, I can't imagine there's no lumber in the entire country they could use.

As I said earlier, it was only a theory.

[TEWR]

dragonflight288 wrote...

My bad.

Found some more info. This is more in regards to the current topic itself and not directed solely at you, fellow Dwarf.

Drakon, back in the early founding days of the Orlesian Empire, was looking to expand northward into the Free Marches through the Dales. At this time, though Drakon had formed Orlais from neighboring city-states he did not seem to have what would later form into the Nevarran country area under his control, near as I can figure. In fact, Orlais would not take the city-state of Nevarra until the Towers Age (the 3rd Age).

Logistically, were he to move towards the Free Marches, he would've had to pass through the Dales and the Waking Sea or over the land of the Nevarran landscape and into the western approach of the Free Marches.

And unless the people of the Nevarran territories would be willing to let Drakon pass on through so long as he didn't come at them, they weren't going to just let him stroll on by (and to be honest, it'd be foolish to do so anyway.). The Dales would provide lumber as you said -- the great forest cities, for instance -- and I assume Drakon probably wanted to send his men north through the Dales without fighting them so as to preserve his troops.

Plus Kirkwall is a rather tempting thing to take, if one can do so.

The fact that he wanted to pass through the Dales indicates that he had enough ships to justify the trek across the Waking Sea.

Throw in the Dalish isolationism, however, and they're not going to want humans anywhere in their country (which is their right as an independent nation). So tensions will soar. Eventually the Second Blight arrives, ravaging much of Orlais' fertile land.

Montsimmard is nearly destroyed by the Darkspawn while the Elves supposedly watched. This, to me, indicates that the Elves thought the battle could not be won and didn't want to waste their manpower (it'd be idiotic for them to ignore the Blight's threat). That it was won does not mean it looked that way. The fact that they marched their army to Montsimmard suggests the urge to fight. If they were just going to let humanity die with glee, then they would've stayed in their homeland.

Nevertheless, tensions continue to soar because of this incident.

The Tale of Iloren also tells us the Elves did fight the Darkspawn, though admittedly out of self-preservation/self-defense in that instance.

Orlais' capability to not only push back the Darkspawn in the Second Blight but also expand and hold onto those lands (so long as Drakon was alive) indicates that their army was not in dire straits numerically speaking. Obviously, they would've suffered losses, but what we have to go off of indicates that their army was rather strong. Indeed, Drakon's use of the Mages and the Wardens having had information to go off of would certainly have helped things, along with his military capabilities (so the lore says).

Yet, without fertile land, they're in dire straits regardless once the 2nd Blight has ended. The Anderfels have not only broken away, but were nearly destroyed by the Second Blight (though other Blights would ravage other areas of the Anderfels). One can assume the Second Blight did a hefty toll on the Anderfels' fertility for farming -- not discounting, again, the other Blights.

So we see the Dales. It's not as fertile as they'd like -- most of its settlements are along the coast -- yet we know Halamshiral was a forest city, and there were other villages scattered throughout. So it's definitely tempting for Orlais to invade.

But they can't just invade so blatantly, if you ask me. To assault Andraste's allies might not go over well with everyone. So Orlais seeks to use the already heightened tensions to their advantage, perhaps by employing Elven citizens and/or bandits to assault Red Crossing so they can declare it the work of Dalish Elves.

Or perhaps Elven radicals, not happy with constant pressures from Orlesian humans (merchants, missionaries, Templars, and Red Crossing villagers) decided to be asenine and assault the town.

Regardless, Orlais has a pretext to invade the Dales, even if they're no longer focused on taking the Free Marches for themselves now since Drakon I died long ago. Yet the strength of the Dales astounded Orlais and they were shocked to see that they couldn't win so easily.

So Orlais had reason to invade. The Chantry had reason to assist, as the Divines and Emperors/Empresses have been best buddies since the inception of the Chantry. And beyond that, they'd been spreading rumors of how the Elves were "dangerous heathens that sacrifice people to their gods", which would no doubt have inflamed tensions even more.

My two cents on what we know.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 octobre 2013 - 06:21 .

[Laughing_Man]

MisterJB wrote...

Chantry Version: The elves didn't help us during the Second Blight which lead to increasing tensions. After they isolated themselves, we attempted to send missionaries, diplomats and merchants to extablish a cordial relation; unfortunately, all were turned down. Border conflicts eventually escalated to all out war after their attack on Red Crossing.

Elven version: The humans resented us because we placed our people first and didn't worship their god. First they sent missionaries and when these were refused, Templars. They took our home from us, the end.

One is very much in-tune with elven ideals (isolation) and reasonably describes how wars starts. The other would have us believe all of the war was fought over religion and ommits elven attrocities during the course of the war such as the sack of Val-Royeaux.
Now, you tell me which one sounds more likely.

The elves thanked Andraste for her bravery by sacking the seat of her religion.

Hmm... maybe the mages should look for a new Andraste.

And after they find her, she'll quickly take up arms against them yet again.

Isolation in itself is a valid choice, one that dosen't justifies war.
(Is it the right choice moraly? I don't think so, but it's not for me to judge.)
The claims that the elves watched ad darkspawn killed humans are abit strange, considering that the dalish are available to help during DA:O.

Yes, the elves sacked Val Royeaux as part of a war of self-defense, your point is?

You also seem to forget that the chantry's reson for calling an "exalted" march was that the elves were "practicing dark magic and offering human sacrifices to their pagan gods". Which sounds to me like a lame excuse.

And Andraste was a mage herself, didn't you know?
In any case, she probably would have thrown herself into the the fire again, if she saw what a disgusting monster her religion became.

[TEWR]

(Is it the right choice moraly? I don't think so, but it's not for me to judge.)

I can say that while it's their right as a nation, to take it to such extreme lengths isn't wise in the long run. That said, Orlais also needed to consider where the Dales was coming from in regards to their isolation.

Instead, humanity just chose to write off a lot of the Dales' cultural values as "hogwash and fairy tales".

Which, maybe it is, but that doesn't mean **** like that shouldn't be taken into consideration because no one knew for certain and the Elves believed in it.

Yes, the elves sacked Val Royeaux as part of a war of self-defense, your point is?

In war, there's always a point where you should broach peace negotiations and not take things too far. For the Dales, this probably would've been around the time they took Montsimmard and a few other Orlesian settlements/towns/cities/forts (whatever else they had captured besides Montsimmard, but before the march on VR).

Not only is Val Royeaux the seat of the dominant religion of Thedas at this time, but it cements that there can be no peace negotiations that are fair to either side.

Self-defense was taken out of hand the moment they started making their way to assault Val Royeaux.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

It is impossible for Orlais to expand north into the Free Marches through the Dales for the same reason it is impossible for America to expand north into Canada through Mexico.

If it's possible for Orlais reputation for expansionism to be a good indicator that they might have coveted the lands of the Dales and wanted to conquer it, then elves reputation for xenophobia should be a good indicator they could have attacked Red Crossing. I don't think either side was a paragon of morals during the war.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 02 octobre 2013 - 06:42 .