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[TEWR]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

It is impossible for Orlais to expand north into the Free Marches through the Dales for the same reason it is impossible for America to expand north into Canada through Mexico.

http://images1.wikia...0/ThedasMap.jpg

Meh, here's a map of Thedas, using what we can assume is current geographic territories. Remember that Orlais didn't acquire Nevarran territory until the 3rd Age. Regardless, the codex does say Drakon wanted to extend north through the Dales into the Free Marches.

Which tells us that Orlais was not big enough to justify going overland without incurring casualties. Plus, as I said, Nevarran citizens of the various areas probably wouldn't just let Orlais stroll on by and they'd end up fighting them.

Sort of undermines the entire idea of sneakily taking the Free Marches by surprise, if they hear about Orlais fighting the Nevarran people.

If it's possible for Orlais reputation for expansionism to be a good indicator that they might have coveted the lands of the Dales and wanted to conquer it, then elves reputation for xenophobia should be a good indicator they could have attacked Red Crossing.

Did I say it wasn't? No, rather I said I'm inclined to believe Elven radicals within the Dales were the culprits, as opposed to the Dales themselves. But of course it's possible the Dales actually ordered it.

Not very likely (rather, it's counter-intuitive to isolationist policies because it's an act of war) but possible.

[Sir JK]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

*snipped for brevity*

Wasn't Nevarra Drakon's target though? It did not became a state separate from the Free Marches until 5:83 Exalted (by essentially annexing it's neighbouring states) and it was part of Mafertah's kingdom (much like Orlais was).

The Tale of Iloren also tells us the Elves did fight the Darkspawn, though admittedly out of self-preservation/self-defense in that instance.

The tale of Illoren is perhaps the single most damning piece when it comes to the reliability of Dalish history though.

It speaks of a nomad Dalish clan... before the fall of the Dales.

Led by a keeper... when their culture is still intact.

In the Anderfels, near Weisshauppt (which btw is on the other side of Thedas from the Dales)... during the elven isolation.

Fighting under the Merdaine, a huge statue of Andraste... when the Anderfels as a whole was just starting to accept that religion (the Warden's convert in 1:33).

Those simply does not add up... the last one is easy to explain (it being a result of Tevinter's transfigurations, rather than Drakon's chantry) but the other three actually contradict the normal Dalish version.
And this one is passed down from keeper to keeper to Zathrian. Which makes the story just about 300 years old.

Why do they have a keeper, when the keepers are tasked with preserving the culture of the Dales (not neccessary if it's not lost). Why are they on the other side human lands... in fact so deep in human lands that Antiva would be closer than they are... when the elves are supposedly isolating themselves to recover their humanity? Why is there an entire clan, when they're not nomads? Why are they in the Anderfel's, risking the darkspawn... when their homeland's borders are protected by armies?

But eh... this thread as about mages... wasn't it?

[movieguyabw]

As someone who only decided to play a mage on my first playthrough, because the opening narrative of the first game talked about Tevinter Mages who broke into heaven, and I thought that was badass - I have always been a staunch Mage supporter. Even so much that I don't really see a problem with blood magic, or demons in general.

I am, however, glad that Bioware is looking to grey the lines. Something I loved in Origins was despite my biases, I never felt the game was trying to say "oh, the Templars are bad" or "the mages are all good" or vice versa. I always felt that the game painted everyone and every decision in a shade of grey, and allowed me to decide for myself how I felt about everything.

I'd love to have that feeling again, in the DA universe.

[TEWR]

Wasn't Nevarra Drakon's target though? It did not became a state separate from the Free Marches until 5:83 Exalted (by essentially annexing it's neighbouring states) and it was part of Mafertah's kingdom (much like Orlais was).

Nope! It was the Free Marches! Arguably, one could include Nevarra in that as they didn't become their own state until much later, but Nevarra wasn't brought into Orlais' authority until the 3rd Blight when Orlais swooped in for the rescue.

But the codex says that Drakon wanted to go into the Free Marches through the Dales (History of the Chantry, part 4, I believe?).

The tale of Illoren is perhaps the single most damning piece when it comes to the reliability of Dalish history though.

It speaks of a nomad Dalish clan... before the fall of the Dales.

An inconsistency I'd brought up in the past, and the only thing I'm led to believe is that they were sending a clan or two out to bring relics of Arlathan back to the Dales.

Makes sense. If you want to regain your lost society, you'd probably want to look for whatever scraps of lore and artifacts that exist out there and were lost long ago.

Led by a keeper... when their culture is still intact.

Not so. It doesn't say anything of their culture being intact at all. Their culture is, in fact, a mere husk of what it once was at this point in time (the entire point of them trying to rebuild their lost society was because Tevinter pretty much obliterated it).

In the Anderfels, near Weisshauppt (which btw is on the other side of Thedas from the Dales)... during the elven isolation.

Well, it actually says at the foot of the Merdaine Mountain range, and near as I can figure Weisshaupt is not around the Merdaine.

EDIT: Looked at a map and the Merdaine is vast, so they weren't necessarily near Weisshaupt.

Fighting under the Merdaine, a huge statue of Andraste... when the Anderfels as a whole was just starting to accept that religion (the Warden's convert in 1:33).

We don't know when the statue to Andraste was chiseled into the mountain range though.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 octobre 2013 - 07:14 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

eluvianix wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

But if you have a way to deal with mages that will make sure NO innocents die, I'm all ears.

Morrigan talked of a world beyond the Fade. She glimpsed it in the Eluvian. It's just food for thought, but what if the mages were to try and access this world and go there to live?

Hmm... might work. But wouldnt' that still be segragation?
And it still leaves the problem of new mages.
I guess you'd have to round them up and throw them trough the portal.

[TEWR]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Hmm... might work. But wouldnt' that still be segragation?

It'd actually just be the Isolationist policy put into effect. Course, you'd have the problem of a society of people growing with power that you can't even begin to manage at all because they're in a separate plane (or continent), and if a Tevinter 2.0 arose over there and they decided to invade...

...who would know until it's too late?

And it still leaves the problem of new mages.
I guess you'd have to round them up and throw them trough the portal.

Congo line moving children through the Eluvian like Hot Potato?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 octobre 2013 - 07:20 .

[Sir JK]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Nope! It was the Free Marches! Arguably, one could include Nevarra in that as they didn't become their own state until much later, but Nevarra wasn't brought into Orlais' authority until the 3rd Blight when Orlais swooped in for the rescue.

But the codex says that Drakon wanted to go into the Free Marches
through the Dales (History of the Chantry, part 4, I believe?).

Yeah, though since they were at the times Free marcher states, an invasion of Nevarra would be a invasion of the Free Marches. That's not saying Drakon would have stopped there (it sounds like he was trying to recreate Maferath's kingdom) though. It's also, as I pointed out right next door to the area he just conquered.
The point when Orlais occupied Nevarra is moot though, since the elven armies on his border convinced him not to launch the invasion in the first place. And then the blight happened and the man got the war he desired anyways.

Regardless... this was 100 years prior to the war and his death was 40 years prior to it. Whatever had happened then was ancient history to the humans (and probably to the elves as well).

An inconsistency I'd brought up in the past, and the only thing I'm led to believe is that they were sending a clan or two out to bring relics of Arlathan back to the Dales.

Makes sense. If you want to regain your lost society, you'd probably want to look for whatever scraps of lore and artifacts that exist out there and were lost long ago.

But you'd bring a party or a host... not a clan.

Not so. It doesn't say anything of their culture being intact at all. Their culture is, in fact, a mere husk of what it once was (the entire point of them trying to rebuild their lost society).

Keepers are, however, according the the Dalish themselves... something they've adopted since the Dales, not prior to it.

Well, it actually says at the foot of the Merdaine Mountain range, and near as I can figure Weisshaupt is not around the Merdaine.

But I lack supplementary materials which might say more about the Anderfels.

The Merdaine is actually a mountain range.

You're thinking the Hunterhorns... though the Merdaine seems to be a mountain as well as you say. World of Thedas page 74 discusses the Merdaine in a lore entry. It's between Nordbotten and Weisshauppt on the map.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Meh, here's a map of Thedas, using what we can assume is current geographic territories. Remember that Orlais didn't acquire Nevarran territory until the 3rd Age. Regardless, the codex does say Drakon wanted to extend north through the Dales into the Free Marches.

Which tells us that Orlais was not big enough to justify going overland without incurring casualties. Plus, as I said, Nevarran citizens of the various areas probably wouldn't just let Orlais stroll on by and they'd end up fighting them.

Sort of undermines the entire idea of sneakily taking the Free Marches by surprise, if they hear about Orlais fighting the Nevarran people.

Does it? Where? I'm actually fairly confident this isn't technically in the codex. At the time Nevarra was part of the Free Marches. It didn't become more than a city state until after the Fourth Blight. If Drakon wanted to expand into the Free Marches, Nevarra would have been one of his likely targets.

Now there is a line in the Dragon Age Wiki timeline section (which gets most of it's info from the DA Prima Guide) where it says that Drakon's "ambitions to expand into the Free Marches were confounded by pressures from the Dales to the east." That could be what you guys remember. "History of the Chantry: Part 4" talks a little about Drakon uniting the city states of Orlais, but doesn't mention either the Free Marches or Nevarra or the Dales.

But this was all before the blight started. During the Second Blight Drakon's Empire reached it's zenith by defending his neighbours from darkspawn. At the time of his death it included the Anderfels and "most of the Western Free Marches." So probably Orlais did control Nevarra at that point. My guess is that after the end of the Second Blight that was no longer the case though.

As far as the Tale of Iloren goes, I don't think it's accurate. At least not about this point in history. There's too many contraditions. They didn't have "clans" and they didn't have "keepers" back before the Fall of the Dales. Arlathan was  in the opposite direction from the Anderfels and the codex even implies they were trying to make a life there, not just retreive artifacts and return to their new homeland. Until the start of the Second Blight, the Anderfels were still a part of the Imperium. And the only reason it stopped was because a horde of darkspawn emerged to ravage the country so either way it's unlikely any elves would choose to live there.

If anything I'm included to suspect that it's an oversight on Bioware or the Dalish historian's part and it was actually refering to the Fourth Blight. It's only refrence to when it would have been is the name of the Archdemon, and they refer to Zazikel, who is said to be "The Old Goddess of Freedom" as "he". Although, to be fair even World of Thedas seems to get mixed up about what gender Zazikel was so i don't know if they were right or wrong about that.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 02 octobre 2013 - 07:44 .

[In Exile]

dragonflight288 wrote...
The Dalish had an interest in being isolated in an attempt to restore they immortality, or so they believed. They turned away all human contact after the Dales had been established.  

Another way of saying that is that the Dales had a vested interest in justifying what is, by all counts, one of the most unimaginably racist beliefs one could come up with. That in and of itself calls their oral and written history into question.

Orlais had just suffered a blight, and they needed fertile ground for crops, something the Dales had plenty of. The Chantry teaches that the Chant must be sung from all corners of the world in order to bring the Maker back, so they wanted to spread their influence, and didn't like the fact that their missionaries were turned away.

Wait, the argument here is (i) Orlais was ravaged by undergroud monster for a century; (ii) Orlais lacked food to support their population; (iii) the Dales had plentiful food because they were untouched by that war; so (iv) it was logical for Orlais, the war ravaged state, to begin a war of conquest against the Dales, the unravaged state?

I have no doubt that some elves got really angry, lost loved ones or something, and some radical group may or may not have been involved in the sacking of Red Crossing, but Orlais and the Chantry had the greater motivation for the war.  

It seems to by your own account Orlais had far less reason for the war when it started: namely, they couldn't fight it alone and win. And that's exactly what happened when Montsimmard was sacked and Val Royeaux was in danger. 

[In Exile]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Meh, here's a map of Thedas, using what we can assume is current geographic territories. Remember that Orlais didn't acquire Nevarran territory until the 3rd Age. Regardless, the codex does say Drakon wanted to extend north through the Dales into the Free Marches.

That's just a sign whoever wrote the Codex didn't think the geography through. As with most of the discussions here, "Bioware made a mistake" is a perfectly reasonablel explanation.

Which tells us that Orlais was not big enough to justify going overland without incurring casualties. Plus, as I said, Nevarran citizens of the various areas probably wouldn't just let Orlais stroll on by and they'd end up fighting them.  

Or it tells us whoever wrote that Codex had no idea what the Geography of Thedas was. It doesn't matter what Orlais conquered until the 3rd Age. You can't honestly tell me you think they moved the location of Val Royeaux and Montsimmard to the opposite sides of the Dales in the interim.

Did I say it wasn't? No, rather I said I'm inclined to believe Elven radicals within the Dales were the culprits, as opposed to the Dales themselves. But of course it's possible the Dales actually ordered it.

Not very likely (rather, it's counter-intuitive to isolationist policies because it's an act of war) but possible. 

The isolationist policies are born of the most horrible for of racism possible. The kind that only the most vile IRL groups have. It's pefectly possible for the Dalish to have started a war - and committed serious and horrible war crimes - based on that alone. 

My own view - as always - is that Orlais struck first and the elves began a massacre campaign because they were the healthier state and because they had a very racist and anti-human culture so it was easy to justify the killing.

An inconsistency I'd brought up in the past, and the only thing I'm led to believe is that they were sending a clan or two out to bring relics of Arlathan back to the Dales.

Makes sense. If you want to regain your lost society, you'd probably want to look for whatever scraps of lore and artifacts that exist out there and were lost long ago.

Ah, the only explanation is the one that continues to say Dalish history is entirely correct despite there being no reason to believe that, objectively. Right. 

[Xilizhra]

Another way of saying that is that the Dales had a vested interest in justifying what is, by all counts, one of the most unimaginably racist beliefs one could come up with. That in and of itself calls their oral and written history into question.

There's no germ theory on Thedas, so there's no way they could have known that humans might be carrying something with them instead of just being inherently malign to elven physiology (and they still might be inherently malign, we don't know).

Wait, the argument here is (i) Orlais was ravaged by undergroud monster for a century; (ii) Orlais lacked food to support their population; (iii) the Dales had plentiful food because they were untouched by that war; so (iv) it was logical for Orlais, the war ravaged state, to begin a war of conquest against the Dales, the unravaged state?

Yes. Orlais is far larger and seemingly more powerful still, and they may well have thought that it was worth snatching from. Apparently they underestimated the elves.

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
There's no germ theory on Thedas, so there's no way they could have known that humans might be carrying something with them instead of just being inherently malign to elven physiology (and they still might be inherently malign, we don't know).

It doesn't matter whether or not they know about germ theory. What matters is that their actual religious belief is that the mere existence of humans is a parastic poison on their existence. 

Yes. Orlais is far larger and seemingly more powerful still, and they may well have thought that it was worth snatching from. Apparently they underestimated the elves.

There's no indication that Orlais was larger and more powerful. The fact that they initially lost the war is the clearest evidence that's false. 

[Xilizhra]

It doesn't matter whether or not they know about germ theory. What matters is that their actual religious belief is that the mere existence of humans is a parastic poison on their existence.

Which is a logical conclusion to come to given the events of their history and their lack of ability to uncover alternatives. And by that, I mean the spreading death of elves after humans showed up.

There's no indication that Orlais was larger and more powerful. The fact that they initially lost the war is the clearest evidence that's false.

Definitely larger, and I said "seemingly" more powerful.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 02 octobre 2013 - 02:09 .

[Kairi Hawke]

i guess when it comes to magic its never simple i hope there will be alot of greyness.

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
Which is a logical conclusion to come to given the events of their history and their lack of ability to uncover alternatives. And by that, I mean the spreading death of elves after humans showed up.

No, it really isn't. There's no obligation to have a belief in anything. You can be entirely agonistic as to a thing if you're not satsfied by any theory. There's no imperative to choose a theory. Especially a racist theory. Unless you happen to be a racist, like (at least) the Arlathan elves were described to be. 

There is absolutely nothing logical about their conclusion. It is, in fact, completely insane. There's no mechanism posited. There's no actual causal mechanism. There is, at best, a conjunction, but there are other equal explanations that could also work and have the same evidence like the year that humans showed up, the warranty their ancestors got on their immortality from their gods expired. 

The attribution to race is insanely racist in absence of any evidence, and there's no logical reason to support it. Causation as a concept is on shaky ground generally, but we usually justify it with a pragamtic explanation (some kind of inference to the best explanation). 

The elves can't hang their hat on that because there's no explanation. It's like my explaining my nauseau with the fact that I bought red shoes yesterday, because it so happened that the red shoes and my nausau were contemporaneus in time. 

Edit: As I recall, you're an atheist (like I am). Don't you see how this situation is quite analogous to a belief in a higher power in the absence of any evidence? 

Definitely larger, and I said "seemingly" more powerful.

Ah, I missed that. Like I said, I wouldn't be surprised if Orlais - or elements in Orlais - started the war. I certainly wouldn't be surprised if it was Chantry extremists on one side and elven extremists on the other, and enough racial and religious tension to push both states into thinking "finally, I can get this monkey off my back!". 

The Dalish then had the upper hand, and I'm sure the viciousness of their campaign and their desire to crush Orlais flowed from their racism, in the same way that Orlais eventual ethnic cleansing flowed from its racism (and maybe fear over how they were crushed by the elves and sour grapes over the blight). 

Modifié par In Exile, 02 octobre 2013 - 02:28 .

[Xilizhra]

There is absolutely nothing logical about their conclusion. It is, in fact, completely insane. There's no mechanism posited. There's no actual causal mechanism. There is, at best, a conjunction, but there are other equal explanations that could also work and have the same evidence like the year that humans showed up, the warranty their ancestors got on their immortality from their gods expired.

IIRC, it happened to the elves who came into contact with humans first and more often, then spread.

Edit: As I recall, you're an atheist (like I am). Don't you see how this situation is quite analogous to a belief in a higher power in the absence of any evidence?

I would, but for the evidence that the Dalish have no evidence apart from their own history, nor any way to crosscheck it. Only Tevinter would have records of that time period, and why would they share?

The Dalish then had the upper hand, and I'm sure the viciousness of their campaign and their desire to crush Orlais flowed from their racism, in the same way that Orlais eventual ethnic cleansing flowed from its racism (and maybe fear over how they were crushed by the elves and sour grapes over the blight).

Perhaps. In the end, it matters less than giving the elves a new homeland.

[Medhia Nox]

Concerning thread title: 

The reality is... they didn't have to present it that way.

The reaction to the mages (and elves) is simply projection of real world feelings of injustice and oppression on to fictional ones.

It's much easier to fight against the injustice posed against mages and elves... than put your neck on the line to fight real world injustices.

Hence - the BSN fanatics.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 02 octobre 2013 - 02:39 .

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
IIRC, it happened to the elves who came into contact with humans first and more often, then spread.

Well, no. That's the alleged account. But we don't have historical documents from that period giving us a full account of this. At best, we have oral histories and stories many generations removed saying that this is what happened, which came about at a time when the belief already ostensibly existed.

It's like the authenticity problems with the various accounts in the bible. 

I would, but for the evidence that the Dalish have no evidence apart from their own history, nor any way to crosscheck it. Only Tevinter would have records of that time period, and why would they share?

But that's exactly why the belief should be dismissed as racist without further proof. 

Perhaps. In the end, it matters less than giving the elves a new homeland.

Right, I'm not debating who started who. I think that we can come up with accounts for any of the theories, and there's no evidence to decide which inference is right. I only stepped in to say that there are good reasons to say the Dalish account is biased (and by that I mean that it wouldn't be irrational to believe it was biased, not that we should prefer it to any other account). 

Modifié par In Exile, 02 octobre 2013 - 02:43 .

[dragonflight288]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

My bad.

Found some more info. This is more in regards to the current topic itself and not directed solely at you, fellow Dwarf.

Drakon, back in the early founding days of the Orlesian Empire, was looking to expand northward into the Free Marches through the Dales. At this time, though Drakon had formed Orlais from neighboring city-states he did not seem to have what would later form into the Nevarran country area under his control, near as I can figure. In fact, Orlais would not take the city-state of Nevarra until the Towers Age (the 3rd Age).

Logistically, were he to move towards the Free Marches, he would've had to pass through the Dales and the Waking Sea or over the land of the Nevarran landscape and into the western approach of the Free Marches.

And unless the people of the Nevarran territories would be willing to let Drakon pass on through so long as he didn't come at them, they weren't going to just let him stroll on by (and to be honest, it'd be foolish to do so anyway.). The Dales would provide lumber as you said -- the great forest cities, for instance -- and I assume Drakon probably wanted to send his men north through the Dales without fighting them so as to preserve his troops.

Plus Kirkwall is a rather tempting thing to take, if one can do so.

The fact that he wanted to pass through the Dales indicates that he had enough ships to justify the trek across the Waking Sea.

Throw in the Dalish isolationism, however, and they're not going to want humans anywhere in their country (which is their right as an independent nation). So tensions will soar. Eventually the Second Blight arrives, ravaging much of Orlais' fertile land.

Montsimmard is nearly destroyed by the Darkspawn while the Elves supposedly watched. This, to me, indicates that the Elves thought the battle could not be won and didn't want to waste their manpower (it'd be idiotic for them to ignore the Blight's threat). That it was won does not mean it looked that way. The fact that they marched their army to Montsimmard suggests the urge to fight. If they were just going to let humanity die with glee, then they would've stayed in their homeland.

Nevertheless, tensions continue to soar because of this incident.

The Tale of Iloren also tells us the Elves did fight the Darkspawn, though admittedly out of self-preservation/self-defense in that instance.

Orlais' capability to not only push back the Darkspawn in the Second Blight but also expand and hold onto those lands (so long as Drakon was alive) indicates that their army was not in dire straits numerically speaking. Obviously, they would've suffered losses, but what we have to go off of indicates that their army was rather strong. Indeed, Drakon's use of the Mages and the Wardens having had information to go off of would certainly have helped things, along with his military capabilities (so the lore says).

Yet, without fertile land, they're in dire straits regardless once the 2nd Blight has ended. The Anderfels have not only broken away, but were nearly destroyed by the Second Blight (though other Blights would ravage other areas of the Anderfels). One can assume the Second Blight did a hefty toll on the Anderfels' fertility for farming -- not discounting, again, the other Blights.

So we see the Dales. It's not as fertile as they'd like -- most of its settlements are along the coast -- yet we know Halamshiral was a forest city, and there were other villages scattered throughout. So it's definitely tempting for Orlais to invade.

But they can't just invade so blatantly, if you ask me. To assault Andraste's allies might not go over well with everyone. So Orlais seeks to use the already heightened tensions to their advantage, perhaps by employing Elven citizens and/or bandits to assault Red Crossing so they can declare it the work of Dalish Elves.

Or perhaps Elven radicals, not happy with constant pressures from Orlesian humans (merchants, missionaries, Templars, and Red Crossing villagers) decided to be asenine and assault the town.

Regardless, Orlais has a pretext to invade the Dales, even if they're no longer focused on taking the Free Marches for themselves now since Drakon I died long ago. Yet the strength of the Dales astounded Orlais and they were shocked to see that they couldn't win so easily.

So Orlais had reason to invade. The Chantry had reason to assist, as the Divines and Emperors/Empresses have been best buddies since the inception of the Chantry. And beyond that, they'd been spreading rumors of how the Elves were "dangerous heathens that sacrifice people to their gods", which would no doubt have inflamed tensions even more.

My two cents on what we know.

Thanks.

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: So, what you're saying is that even as the greatest world spanning empire - the elves were still stupid, ignorant savages that genuinely believed humans were magicking away their immortality?

So how about if I think mages are a parasitic poison? Do I get the justified card? And if not, why not? (I know why, it's because you say so, but I'm just curious if you have a lucid answer.)

[Adanu]

David, I love yuu, but you simply don't get it with this.

The issue isn't mage freedom, it's mage rights.

Tearing mages from their families, and effectively enslaving them is NOT a solution, it's a bandage on a gaping wound never allowed to heal.

[Fast Jimmy]

Adanu wrote...

David, I love yuu, but you simply don't get it with this.

The issue isn't mage freedom, it's mage rights.

Tearing mages from their families, and effectively enslaving them is NOT a solution, it's a bandage on a gaping wound never allowed to heal.

And, yet, the Mages who are rebelling don't have a suitable solution to replace this bandaid. It has just been ripped off and now risks the wound getting infected and septic. 

THAT'S what he is trying to say they are going for in their story (from what I can gather, at least). Templars aren't innocent, but Mages are now being reckless. You assume because Mages are being treated badly that freeing them from that abuse is the best course of action. When, in reality, it may not be. At all. 

[dragonflight288]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Adanu wrote...

David, I love yuu, but you simply don't get it with this.

The issue isn't mage freedom, it's mage rights.

Tearing mages from their families, and effectively enslaving them is NOT a solution, it's a bandage on a gaping wound never allowed to heal.

And, yet, the Mages who are rebelling don't have a suitable solution to replace this bandaid. It has just been ripped off and now risks the wound getting infected and septic. 

THAT'S what he is trying to say they are going for in their story (from what I can gather, at least). Templars aren't innocent, but Mages are now being reckless. You assume because Mages are being treated badly that freeing them from that abuse is the best course of action. When, in reality, it may not be. At all. 

I support mages, not because they have a better system, but because I think it's better for everyone if they are removed from the source of the abuse as swiftly as possible. The templars need to get their act together. Now that they're free of the Circles, I fully intend, as the Inquisitor, to make sure they also get their act together.

[Beerfish]

Adanu wrote...

David, I love yuu, but you simply don't get it with this.

The issue isn't mage freedom, it's mage rights.

Tearing mages from their families, and effectively enslaving them is NOT a solution, it's a bandage on a gaping wound never allowed to heal.

1)  It is a good solution for a large % of the populaton of Thedas.
2) I've yet to hear of a credable alternative to the present situation by ardent mage supporters that I could live with as a citizen of Thedas.