2497 réponses à ce sujet

[Beerfish]

dragonflight288 wrote...



I support mages, not because they have a better system, but because I think it's better for everyone if they are removed from the source of the abuse as swiftly as possible. The templars need to get their act together. Now that they're free of the Circles, I fully intend, as the Inquisitor, to make sure they also get their act together.

What does 'getting their act together' mean?  I'm not asking as a mage or a templar or a member of the chantry but as a common citizen of thedas.

[dragonflight288]

Beerfish wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...



I support mages, not because they have a better system, but because I think it's better for everyone if they are removed from the source of the abuse as swiftly as possible. The templars need to get their act together. Now that they're free of the Circles, I fully intend, as the Inquisitor, to make sure they also get their act together.

What does 'getting their act together' mean?  I'm not asking as a mage or a templar or a member of the chantry but as a common citizen of thedas.

Well, not summonging demons or turning to blood magic is a very good start. If the mages organize and form a system to teach the young apprentices magic, I'll fully expect contingency plans in the event of abominations, and a set code on what is and is not acceptable, with very real consequences. Say, "use blood magic to control others, you'll be made tranquil, regardless if you're harrowed or not." Or, "in order to keep children from losing control of their emotions and setting kids heads on fire, all children must be taken to a Circle/Academy to be taught their magic, and can't leave until they can prove they control it."

I wouldn't deny them visiting family members or family members visiting them, and I wouldn't take their children away as Chantry property, like what happened to Rhys from Wynne, nor would I force tranquility upon those considered weak or dangerous. I also wouldn't have their choices limited to "harrowing, tranquility or death." It would be "something like the Harrowing, extended apprenticeship or workshop classes, research assistants, enchanting, etc."

I mentioned Enchanting because in Awakening the Circle sends an enchanter to aid the Warden, and she isn't tranquil.

[cjones91]

Beerfish wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...



I support mages, not because they have a better system, but because I think it's better for everyone if they are removed from the source of the abuse as swiftly as possible. The templars need to get their act together. Now that they're free of the Circles, I fully intend, as the Inquisitor, to make sure they also get their act together.

What does 'getting their act together' mean?  I'm not asking as a mage or a templar or a member of the chantry but as a common citizen of thedas.

It means that there should be more fair minded templars who are willing to help the mages instead of antagonizing them.The templars allowed themselves to be ruled by extremism and they need to purge themselves of those elements.Also mages should do more to help root out it's own extremist elements as well.

Modifié par cjones91, 02 octobre 2013 - 04:51 .

[dragonflight288]

cjones91 wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...



I support mages, not because they have a better system, but because I think it's better for everyone if they are removed from the source of the abuse as swiftly as possible. The templars need to get their act together. Now that they're free of the Circles, I fully intend, as the Inquisitor, to make sure they also get their act together.

What does 'getting their act together' mean?  I'm not asking as a mage or a templar or a member of the chantry but as a common citizen of thedas.

It means that there should be more fair minded templars who are willing to help the mages instead of antagonizing them.The templars allowed themselves to be ruled by extremism and they need to purge themselves of those elements.

That too.

[Medhia Nox]

I think the Templars should be secularized and hired by the state as a sort of special forces developed to keep the state safe from mages and magical threats.

I also think that mages of a state should be allowed to live without incarceration with some very heavy laws leveled against them. Most notably - the prohibition to learn militant magic.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 02 octobre 2013 - 04:57 .

[dragonflight288]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I think the Templars should be secularized and hired by the state as a sort of special forces developed to keep the state safe from mages and magical threats.

I also think that mages of a state should be allowed to live without incarceration with some very heavy laws leveled against them. Most notably - the prohibition to learn militant magic.

Theoretically, how would you enforce such a law? Wynne was getting bullied, lost her temper as a child, and set another kid's head on fire.

[cjones91]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

I think the Templars should be secularized and hired by the state as a sort of special forces developed to keep the state safe from mages and magical threats.

I also think that mages of a state should be allowed to live without incarceration with some very heavy laws leveled against them. Most notably - the prohibition to learn militant magic.

Theoretically, how would you enforce such a law? Wynne was getting bullied, lost her temper as a child, and set another kid's head on fire.

Teach them how to control their magic from a early age,have special mage tutors people can hire to help their mage children learn to control their power.

[Beerfish]

dragonflight288 wrote...



Well, not summonging demons or turning to blood magic is a very good start. If the mages organize and form a system to teach the young apprentices magic, I'll fully expect contingency plans in the event of abominations, and a set code on what is and is not acceptable, with very real consequences. Say, "use blood magic to control others, you'll be made tranquil, regardless if you're harrowed or not." Or, "in order to keep children from losing control of their emotions and setting kids heads on fire, all children must be taken to a Circle/Academy to be taught their magic, and can't leave until they can prove they control it."

I wouldn't deny them visiting family members or family members visiting them, and I wouldn't take their children away as Chantry property, like what happened to Rhys from Wynne, nor would I force tranquility upon those considered weak or dangerous. I also wouldn't have their choices limited to "harrowing, tranquility or death." It would be "something like the Harrowing, extended apprenticeship or workshop classes, research assistants, enchanting, etc."

I mentioned Enchanting because in Awakening the Circle sends an enchanter to aid the Warden, and she isn't tranquil.

Not good enough for me.  I've seen what happened to the circle and Uldred which was supposidley looked after by Irvine.

What happnens if they fail the harrowing?

Not taking a child away as what happened to Rhys is what caused the Recliffe massacre with Connor. 

As a common citizen I don't want to take a chance on mages getting loose.  I've seen or heard what happens when they are unsupervised or supervised only by other mages and i'm not going to let my village or bannorn burn to find out.

[Beerfish]

cjones91 wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...



I support mages, not because they have a better system, but because I think it's better for everyone if they are removed from the source of the abuse as swiftly as possible. The templars need to get their act together. Now that they're free of the Circles, I fully intend, as the Inquisitor, to make sure they also get their act together.

What does 'getting their act together' mean?  I'm not asking as a mage or a templar or a member of the chantry but as a common citizen of thedas.

It means that there should be more fair minded templars who are willing to help the mages instead of antagonizing them.The templars allowed themselves to be ruled by extremism and they need to purge themselves of those elements.Also mages should do more to help root out it's own extremist elements as well.

You are talking at far too high of a level for me to support your comments.  We know the problems we I need real details about just what you intend to do.  As a common citizen I'll err on the side of mages being locked up it it's all the same to you unless you can give me a really good fool proof plan other than jsut say the Templars have to be nicer and the mages have to do better.  Those words mean nothing to me.

[Lotion Soronarr]

cjones91 wrote...
Teach them how to control their magic from a early age,have special mage tutors people can hire to help their mage children learn to control their power.

Right. Because schools solve ALL problems.

That's why all children today are (or grow up to be) perfectly well-behaved, responsible individuals.

[Medhia Nox]

All mage citizens should be registered.

The argument against mutant registry is weak. Every human in the United States is registered - it's called a social security number.

Then, the state assigns a Templar and an Enchanter as a type of social worker team. They BOTH assess danger - they BOTH cover education - and they BOTH report back to the state.

There WILL be troubled children that have to be sent away... that happens in real life too, no matter how much people don't think so. It's rare - but some people are born "wrong". And they present a very real danger to others.

Anyway - I don't know if it would work - but that's the foundation I would start at.

I might even give some sort of incentive to send your child to the Circle.  Bording schools and military schools are often very strict about parent visitation rights also.  But - having a centralized place for assessment would lower the costs of such an endeavor.  So I would try to convince parents it's in their best interests.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 02 octobre 2013 - 05:14 .

[Beerfish]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I think the Templars should be secularized and hired by the state as a sort of special forces developed to keep the state safe from mages and magical threats.

I also think that mages of a state should be allowed to live without incarceration with some very heavy laws leveled against them. Most notably - the prohibition to learn militant magic.

Alot of good this will do.  I'll feel oh so muich better when the templars come to stamp out some mage that has become an abomination and razed my village to the ground killing everyone in it.  I had a cousin who lived in Redcliffe.  I don't want them mages running around free, they have proven to be far too dangerous either by their own ambition or just becasue they had a weak moment.  My cousin told me that Connor was such a wonderful boy when she met him in the castle once.  Then look what happened.

[Fast Jimmy]

Okay... and how do you have measurable and trackable benchmarks and progress trackers for something like this? Who says when this point is reached? Who what's when an individual, a group to the institution as a whole has failed? Win the person/group/role that makes those decisions have the tools they need to monitor this across the entire breadth of Thedas? What if Orlais' circle agrees, but Ferelden's does not? What makes them agree and work together? What if the group becomes corrupt or power hungry?

The Chantry led this because, honestly, no one else could. A shared religion and set of beliefs is the only way this flies. Otherwise, you leave it open for each country to control their own circles, which leads to widely varied treatment... not to mention the inherent possibility that any leader or government could easily begin weaponizing the entire Circle, brain washing and grooming from a young age an army of Mages, to begin conquest across the land.

People are seeing things as they WANT them to be, not as the very real realities that need to be addressed before saying full scale revolt and freedom should be allowed.

[Medhia Nox]

@Beerfish: As a peasant, do you also want me to collapse the caverns to the Deep Roads to TRY and stop the Darkspawn - slash and burn the Korcari Wilds for fear of Chasind - track down every Dalish clan...

I don't disagree with you - but there's a point where a peasants paranoia can also not determine state policy.

[cjones91]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Beerfish: As a peasant, do you also want me to collapse the caverns to the Deep Roads to TRY and stop the Darkspawn - slash and burn the Korcari Wilds for fear of Chasind - track down every Dalish clan...

I don't disagree with you - but there's a point where a peasants paranoia can also not determine state policy.

Agreed,that's why countries are not run by mob fear and neither are rules.

Modifié par cjones91, 02 octobre 2013 - 05:20 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Okay... and how do you have measurable and trackable benchmarks and progress trackers for something like this? Who says when this point is reached? Who what's when an individual, a group to the institution as a whole has failed? Win the person/group/role that makes those decisions have the tools they need to monitor this across the entire breadth of Thedas? What if Orlais' circle agrees, but Ferelden's does not? What makes them agree and work together? What if the group becomes corrupt or power hungry?

The Chantry led this because, honestly, no one else could. A shared religion and set of beliefs is the only way this flies. Otherwise, you leave it open for each country to control their own circles, which leads to widely varied treatment... not to mention the inherent possibility that any leader or government could easily begin weaponizing the entire Circle, brain washing and grooming from a young age an army of Mages, to begin conquest across the land.

People are seeing things as they WANT them to be, not as the very real realities that need to be addressed before saying full scale revolt and freedom should be allowed.

QFT

[Fast Jimmy]

Medhia Nox wrote...

All mage citizens should be registered. 

The argument against mutant registry is weak. Every human in the United States is registered - it's called a social security number. 

Then, the state assigns a Templar and an Enchanter as a type of social worker team. They BOTH assess danger - they BOTH cover education - and they BOTH report back to the state. 

There WILL be troubled children that have to be sent away... that happens in real life too, no matter how much people don't think so. It's rare - but some people are born "wrong". And they present a very real danger to others. 

Anyway - I don't know if it would work - but that's the foundation I would start at.

I might even give some sort of incentive to send your child to the Circle.  Bording schools and military schools are often very strict about parent visitation rights also.  But - having a centralized place for assessment would lower the costs of such an endeavor.  So I would try to convince parents it's in their best interests.

Report where? Report to whom? The Chantry? What happens if the Templar and Enchanter disagree? Who is the final arbiter? Is it an individual judge, or a committee? Can Mages exist in this role? Can lay people? Or will it just be limited to those in the Chantry? Where is this court located? Do they have multiple locations across Thedas? Who oversees the courts or the offices making decisions based on the Enchanter/Templar recommendation? Who pays and feeds these duos? Who funds the building of these offices and the stipend of their staffs?

I mean... the previous system had over a thousand years to keep the wheels moving. Changing everything about everything is going to require tons and tons of organization, investment and public goodwill... NONE of which exist right now. 

[dragonflight288]

[quote]Beerfish wrote...

[quote]dragonflight288 wrote...



Well, not summonging demons or turning to blood magic is a very good start. If the mages organize and form a system to teach the young apprentices magic, I'll fully expect contingency plans in the event of abominations, and a set code on what is and is not acceptable, with very real consequences. Say, "use blood magic to control others, you'll be made tranquil, regardless if you're harrowed or not." Or, "in order to keep children from losing control of their emotions and setting kids heads on fire, all children must be taken to a Circle/Academy to be taught their magic, and can't leave until they can prove they control it."

I wouldn't deny them visiting family members or family members visiting them, and I wouldn't take their children away as Chantry property, like what happened to Rhys from Wynne, nor would I force tranquility upon those considered weak or dangerous. I also wouldn't have their choices limited to "harrowing, tranquility or death." It would be "something like the Harrowing, extended apprenticeship or workshop classes, research assistants, enchanting, etc."

I mentioned Enchanting because in Awakening the Circle sends an enchanter to aid the Warden, and she isn't tranquil.

[/quote]

Not good enough for me.  I've seen what happened to the circle and Uldred which was supposidley looked after by Irvine.

What happnens if they fail the harrowing?[/quote]

They don't leave the Circle. If they are forcibly possessd, then they would have to be killed as a matter of course and security. If they aren't forcibly possessed, an effort can be made to free them of the demon's possession. This is proven by Connor in Redcliff. Chances are, that mage would likely be killed as well, however.

[quote]Not taking a child away as what happened to Rhys is what caused the Recliffe massacre with Connor.  [/quote]

Point...missing it. I specifically said all mages would be required to be taught. I'm referring to mages in the system having children being allowed to keep their children. Rhys was taken away from Wynne, a Circle mage who accepts the system, literally immediately after he was born. Connor wasn't identified as a mage until he was what....five or six in-game? Isolde reacted as she did because if Connor went to the circle, he would never be allowed to return.

[quote]As a common citizen I don't want to take a chance on mages getting loose.  I've seen or heard what happens when they are unsupervised or supervised only by other mages and i'm not going to let my village or bannorn burn to find out.



[/quote][/quote]

And so we also want to protect the mages from the angry lynch mobs that do form. Wynne talks about how for every mage brought to the Circle, there is another mage child killed by a mob for things they may not even be involved with, but are blamed for. Like a bad harvest and a mage child is discovered.

No system anyone gives will ever be perfect, but I'm looking at trying to reform the current system in a way that removes all the abuses of power from all sides, and grants oversight to those in charge, and holds them accountable, and one that gives mages more rights than they currently have. Give them a few more rights, and you'll find most mage-supporters will be happy. That doesn't necessarily mean total freedom.

[Beerfish]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Beerfish: As a peasant, do you also want me to collapse the caverns to the Deep Roads to TRY and stop the Darkspawn - slash and burn the Korcari Wilds for fear of Chasind - track down every Dalish clan...

I don't disagree with you - but there's a point where a peasants paranoia can also not determine state policy.

I'm not just talking as a peasant, you could substitute a lord or a bann or whatever you like.  In most discussions we have on here we have a templar faction and a mage faction and perhaps a chantry faction.  One of the reasons the chantry and the templars have had their way for so long is because they have strong support from the commom man and magic and mages are feared.

As it is right now this huge majority most likely look at the situation as 'It's too bad the mages have to be treated as they are but it's for the greater good and I don't want to chance a disaster just so they can have more freedom.

Any real reform will not have to pander to templars or the chantry but to the the majority of citizens so that they see mages as more good than bad or at least not an eminent danger.  That is a tall order to fill so any big change will have to be driven my mages showing the common people why it benefits them more to relax things than it is to tighten things.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Beerfish: As a peasant, do you also want me to collapse the caverns to the Deep Roads to TRY and stop the Darkspawn - slash and burn the Korcari Wilds for fear of Chasind - track down every Dalish clan...

I don't disagree with you - but there's a point where a peasants paranoia can also not determine state policy.

Since when has it become a bad idea to try and stop the Darkspawn?  If there actually are a cavern near your village, which leads into the Deep Roads, then yes, I would advice you collapse it.

And while you wouldn't have to burn down the Korcari wilds, if your vilalge lies on the border, it would be most prudent to actually deploy scouts and watches from time to time, just to keep an eye on the barbarian threat...

So the short answer: yes.....

If the threat is real, then it isn't paranoia.

[Beerfish]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...



Well, not summonging demons or turning to blood magic is a very good start. If the mages organize and form a system to teach the young apprentices magic, I'll fully expect contingency plans in the event of abominations, and a set code on what is and is not acceptable, with very real consequences. Say, "use blood magic to control others, you'll be made tranquil, regardless if you're harrowed or not." Or, "in order to keep children from losing control of their emotions and setting kids heads on fire, all children must be taken to a Circle/Academy to be taught their magic, and can't leave until they can prove they control it."

I wouldn't deny them visiting family members or family members visiting them, and I wouldn't take their children away as Chantry property, like what happened to Rhys from Wynne, nor would I force tranquility upon those considered weak or dangerous. I also wouldn't have their choices limited to "harrowing, tranquility or death." It would be "something like the Harrowing, extended apprenticeship or workshop classes, research assistants, enchanting, etc."

I mentioned Enchanting because in Awakening the Circle sends an enchanter to aid the Warden, and she isn't tranquil.

Not good enough for me.  I've seen what happened to the circle and Uldred which was supposidley looked after by Irvine.

What happnens if they fail the harrowing?

They don't leave the Circle. If they are forcibly possessd, then they would have to be killed as a matter of course and security. If they aren't forcibly possessed, an effort can be made to free them of the demon's possession. This is proven by Connor in Redcliff. Chances are, that mage would likely be killed as well, however.

Not taking a child away as what happened to Rhys is what caused the Recliffe massacre with Connor. 

Point...missing it. I specifically said all mages would be required to be taught. I'm referring to mages in the system having children being allowed to keep their children. Rhys was taken away from Wynne, a Circle mage who accepts the system, literally immediately after he was born. Connor wasn't identified as a mage until he was what....five or six in-game? Isolde reacted as she did because if Connor went to the circle, he would never be allowed to return.

Here is the problem and why it is done the wayit is done.  You are a mage, your child is not strong willed and is  a prime candidate for possession.  What do you do?  The amount of bias of a parent and their child would over rule any other 'rule' at the time.  Just like what happened to Isolde.  she knew what was supposed to happne but it was her kid.  If the child is in the circle or not the parent is still going to take steps to protect that child even if it is in conflcit with any other rule.

As a common citizen I don't want to take a chance on mages getting loose.  I've seen or heard what happens when they are unsupervised or supervised only by other mages and i'm not going to let my village or bannorn burn to find out.

And so we also want to protect the mages from the angry lynch mobs that do form. Wynne talks about how for every mage brought to the Circle, there is another mage child killed by a mob for things they may not even be involved with, but are blamed for. Like a bad harvest and a mage child is discovered.

You still have given me no reason at all to not have the mage killed by the angry mob?  And Wynne was very pro circle for most of her life, as in the circle is the thing that is protecting us from being lynched.

No system anyone gives will ever be perfect, but I'm looking at trying to reform the current system in a way that removes all the abuses of power from all sides, and grants oversight to those in charge, and holds them accountable, and one that gives mages more rights than they currently have. Give them a few more rights, and you'll find most mage-supporters will be happy. That doesn't necessarily mean total freedom.

You still have come up very very short on details and without that you will not get the support you need from the majority of the populace.

[Sir JK]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Okay... and how do you have measurable and trackable benchmarks and progress trackers for something like this? Who says when this point is reached? Who what's when an individual, a group to the institution as a whole has failed? Win the person/group/role that makes those decisions have the tools they need to monitor this across the entire breadth of Thedas? What if Orlais' circle agrees, but Ferelden's does not? What makes them agree and work together? What if the group becomes corrupt or power hungry?

The Chantry led this because, honestly, no one else could. A shared religion and set of beliefs is the only way this flies. Otherwise, you leave it open for each country to control their own circles, which leads to widely varied treatment... not to mention the inherent possibility that any leader or government could easily begin weaponizing the entire Circle, brain washing and grooming from a young age an army of Mages, to begin conquest across the land.

People are seeing things as they WANT them to be, not as the very real realities that need to be addressed before saying full scale revolt and freedom should be allowed.

Well said Jimmy, this largely echo my sentiments on the matter as well.

[cjones91]

@Beerfish If you allow mages to be lynched by a angry ignorant mob then you're responsible if that mage decides to fight back.

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Point...missing it. I specifically said all mages would be required to be taught. I'm referring to mages in the system having children being allowed to keep their children. Rhys was taken away from Wynne, a Circle mage who accepts the system, literally immediately after he was born.

If we don't take their kids away, how do we disencourage them from having them? And if we can't disencourage them, what is stopping the mages from increasing their numbers to a point where they can't be controlled?

And what if the child is a non-mage? Are we going to force him/her to spend childhood in a Circle without need and then kick him/her out?

And what if the child is simply not strong enough for the Harrowying? What will stop the parent from doing something stupid?

Modifié par MisterJB, 02 octobre 2013 - 07:34 .

[leaguer of one]

MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
Point...missing it. I specifically said all mages would be required to be taught. I'm referring to mages in the system having children being allowed to keep their children. Rhys was taken away from Wynne, a Circle mage who accepts the system, literally immediately after he was born.

If we don't take their kids away, how do we disencourage them from having them? And if we can't disencourage them, what is stopping the mages from increasing their numbers to a point where they can't be controlled?

And what if the child is a non-mage? Are we going to force him/her to spend childhood in a Circle without need and then kick him/her out?

I'm sorry but  what is your deal?You don't have the right to judge if they have children or not. There is not issue with that. Them making babies is not an issue. Added, mages are incresing number even when they are not breeding with one another.

And if their are non mages born that have the freedom to go in and out of the tower as they age. Even have an option of becoming a templar.