2497 réponses à ce sujet

[Amirit]

Xilizhra wrote...

ThunderfoxF wrote...

Amirit wrote...

There is one thing strongly supporting mage side - existence of Tevinter Empire. Full of mages yet still standing, far from turning into abomination heaven.

As for additional difficulty - if you played NWN2, your character got that "hunger" that you HAD to satisfy or disaster would happen. Lyrium addiction could work the same way. Or fighting the daemons.
Though I thing most of the players would find such thing annoying and search for the hack to remove it.

Also full of slavery and blood magic. Just as oppressive, but in the total opposite direction. Now obviously its not completely full of Black Hats, but still it provides another real and tangible example of why the average Thedosians fear of magic is justified.

No it doesn't. Magic is just a tool used by the magisters in the pursuit of tyranny; it's not the cause of tyranny.

Exactly! Though my point was - mages running free do not become abominations by defolt. Even those that practice blood magic (surprise!) So, when anyone in or out of the game is using "abomination" argument, I always want to ask "but what about Tevinter?"

I do understand it's a simple lore hole (one of many). More arguments not to rationalize it. 

Modifié par Amirit, 29 septembre 2013 - 11:18 .

[Wulfram]

Herr Uhl wrote...

I don't think he is discounting it, but if he is to make the mage issue an interesting plot, there has to be more than people being oppressed for no reason.

Since he is the lead writer, he has to provide what he sees as compelling arguments for both sides. Whether you agree with either side is irrelevant to his need to give both sides arguments.

But it gets annoying when it seems like the games are trying to correct that a lot of people don't find the arguments of one side compelling.

[Heimdall]

LobselVith8 wrote...

ThunderfoxF wrote...
Also full of slavery and blood magic.

Well, I think you can condemn their enslavement of mages and non-mages in Tevinter, but I don't think blood magic is automatically bad.

I suppose, but apparently a not uncommon use for slaves in Tevinter is sacrifice and bleeding in blood magic rituals.  That, I think would fall under the category.

ThunderfoxF wrote...

Just as oppressive, but in the total opposite direction. Now obviously its not completely full of Black Hats, but still it provides another real and tangible example of why the average Thedosians fear of magic is justified. 

The Dalish, the Rivaini, the Avvar, and the Chasind don't hold the same view of magic as Andrastians do; I'm fairly certain the religious teachings of the Chantry of Andraste on magic plays a significant role in how Andrastians view magic and mages.

The Chasind and the Avvar never lived under Tevinter rule.  The Rivaini and the Dalish fit your purpose better.

The teachings of Andraste rose up in the ashes of the Magisters' abuses, to say Andrastrians fear mages and magic because of just one or the other is oversimplification.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 29 septembre 2013 - 11:23 .

[iOnlySignIn]

Herr Uhl wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

You can't possibly logically establish how a group of people "really aren’t like other people" because they manifest a recessive genetic trait.

Simply put, if ~10% of Humans in Thedas are Mages, then another ~40% besides them would carry Magic in their blood. If you treat the 10% as "really aren’t like other people" it brings into question what should you do with the other 40%.

This is assuming it is a recessive genetic trait bound to a single gene. The ability to throw fireballs is enough to differentiate from "other people" in any case.

The lore so far has given every evidence that it is. For example, all Mages can throw fireballs. We don't get Mages who can throw fireballs but not lightning, or the other way around. If it's not single gene then it's several genes which are closely linked.

In any case, Magic is clearly established to be autosomal recessive. Because of this if it's bound to several (unlinked) genes instead of one, the proportion of heterozygotes (latent Magic carriers) among the population would actually be higher.

For example, assuming 10% of Humans in Thedas are Mages.

- If there's one recessive Magic gene, then the proportion of latent (non-Mage) Magic carriers is
1 - 0.1 - (1-sqrt(0.1))^2 = 43%

- If there are two unlinked recessive Magic genes of equal abudancy, then the proportion of latent Magic carriers is
1 - 0.1 - (1-sqrt(0.1/2)*2)^2 = 59%

If you go up from there and assume that Magic is carried by many (more than two) unlinked genes then practically everyone in Thedas would carry Magic in their veins.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 29 septembre 2013 - 11:24 .

[LobselVith8]

Lord Aesir wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

[Well, I think you can condemn their enslavement of mages and non-mages in Tevinter, but I don't think blood magic is automatically bad.

I suppose, but apparently a not uncommon use for slaves in Tevinter is sacrifice and bleeding in blood magic rituals.  That, I think would fall under the category.

An abuse of blood magic, then.

Lord Aesir wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Dalish, the Rivaini, the Avvar, and the Chasind don't hold the same view of magic as Andrastians do; I'm fairly certain the religious teachings of the Chantry of Andraste on magic plays a significant role in how Andrastians view magic and mages.

The Chasind and the Avvar never lived under Tevinter rule.  I'd have to look up the Rivaini.

The teachings of Andraste rose up in the ashes of the Magisters' abuses, to say Thedosians fear mages and magic because of just one or the other is oversimplification.

Tevinter came to Ferelden. Also, the Qunari show it's not limited to the Chantry's teachings, but the myriad of other societies that don't view mages the same way Andrastians do show that it plays a role in why Andrastians view magic and mages in a negative light.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 29 septembre 2013 - 11:25 .

[Thunderfox]

Navasha wrote...

ThunderfoxF wrote...

Amirit wrote...

There is one thing strongly supporting mage side - existence of Tevinter Empire. Full of mages yet still standing, far from turning into abomination heaven.

Also full of slavery and blood magic. Just as oppressive, but in the total opposite direction. Now obviously its not completely full of Black Hats, but still it provides another real and tangible example of why the average Thedosians fear of magic is justified.

Then to make players somewhat hardened against mages and magic, they really need to show us what Tevinter is really like.   Perhaps a future game there if inquisition doesn't solve the mage/Templar conflict. 

Honestly, being told what Tevinter is like from the mouth of Fenris is hardly that convincing about how "evil" it might be.    His blind anger and hatred for any mage or anything magical hardly made him an unbiased witness to 'truth'.  

My 'western bias' will always have me favoring the oppressed over the oppressors.    The introduction of lyrium addiction made me at least somewhat sympathetic to the Templars as they are controlled by the Chantry.    In fact, a Templar willing to stand up against Chantry control to prevent the abuses of the mages would likely be a very sympathetic character for me. 

No Fenris isn;t the most objective case, and as I said I don't believe the Tevinter Empire is completely evil, even if we've only seen Tevinter Slavers and/or Blood Mages expect for Maevaris in the comics.

Justified may not have been the best wording, Understandable would be better. The description of Blood Magic is a lot more insidious. Mind Control? If I was an average Farmer/merchant/citizen in Thedas I'd be far more terrified of that than of abominations.

To use another Geek reference let's use the X-Men. Sure most mutants probably just want to go about thir daily lives and co-exist with normal people. But even when they aren't bent on Mutant supremecy like the Brotherhood they are still dangerous. Is it right to be scared, or even just wary, of an immortal death machine with a metal skeleton? Perhaps not, but it simplely is part of our human nature;,we fear what we don't understand. it is possible to overcome it, however

[Heimdall]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

The lore so far has given every evidence that it is...

Frankly I find it a dodgy proposition to apply genetic theory to magic in Thedas at all.  I doubt the writers have.

[Wulfram]

I think 10% is a pretty big overestimate of the number of mages in Thedas. I'd see 1% as a very high number - could be getting down towards 0.01%, really. Though another factor that makes this debate kind of frustrating is how we really don't have any idea of any of the relevant numbers.

[Heimdall]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Dalish, the Rivaini, the Avvar, and the Chasind don't hold the same view of magic as Andrastians do; I'm fairly certain the religious teachings of the Chantry of Andraste on magic plays a significant role in how Andrastians view magic and mages.

The Chasind and the Avvar never lived under Tevinter rule.  I'd have to look up the Rivaini.

The teachings of Andraste rose up in the ashes of the Magisters' abuses, to say Thedosians fear mages and magic because of just one or the other is oversimplification.

Tevinter came to Ferelden. Also, the Qunari show it's not limited to the Chantry's teachings, but the myriad of other societies that don't view mages the same way Andrastians do show that it plays a role in why Andrastians view magic and mages in a negative light.

Tevinter did come to Ferelden, but the Avvars and the Chasind were not conquered, merely driven into the mountains and the wilds.  They were never subjects of Tevinter was what I meant.  Certainly Andrastrianism plays a role.  Then again the majority of Andrastrian lands were once ruled by the Magisters.  They're interacting factors.

[kinderschlager]

 holy wall of text batman!!

(a good read though)

[Volus Warlord]

+10 Gaider Respect Points

Now, the question is how that will translate into the game.

[Mr.House]

Very good read. Good to see Bioware is not caving to the pro mages who think mages are innocent bunnies.

[Dave of Canada]

Gaider's reasonable approach is something worthy of respect. Still, this opinion existed prior to DA2 and we all know how both sides were portrayed as caricatures there. I'll keep a wary eye on DA:I but I'm glad to know that Gaider still hasn't changed his position on the matter.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 30 septembre 2013 - 12:13 .

[Clockwork_Wings]

Master Warder Z wrote...

I was hoping that this wouldn't be a black vs white conflict; With the Mages being looked upon as innocents and infallible while the Templars a stupidly evil and contorted faction much like Cerberus in ME 3.

I want both sides to have something of a middling group, for both to have supporters and detractors because its a matter of perspective and view and i am glad Bioware is going to treat the Mage Vs Templar war as such.

I am firmly within the Templar camp, my side was chosen before Asunder but that said i am hoping that all perspectives will have glimmers of something beyond this conflict to them.

i recall a lot of characters in ME2 who were basically good people and in Cerberus.  Most of your crew in 2, namely, were good people.

I think what they were trying to do in DA2 was show that templars have reason to fear mages and suspect them of blood magic--because it happens.  Tarhone was kid of the definiton of what templars are afraid of. 

I would like to see fault on both sides in a game like this though, as well as innocence.  Carver, and I think Cullen, believed in the cause when the joined the order...once.

[Herr Uhl]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

We don't get Mages who can throw fireballs but not lightning, or the other way around. If it's not single gene then it's several genes which are closely linked.

Very few things are determined by a single gene and nothing else, especially if it is something as complex as magic would be.

In any case, the writers have shown little to no regard for real life biology, and I doubt it'll change.

[Fast Jimmy]

Volus Warlord wrote...

+10 Gaider Respect Points

Now, the question is how that will translate into the game.

I thought about replying in a more comprehensive manner, but this is it in a nutshell. Tip of the hat (at least for intent), señor Gaider. 

I'd at least like to see that the Templars aren't the DA Cerberus. Well, at least, assuming that the Red Templars aren't hung with this rope.

[Dominus]

I'd have to agree with Herr Uhl - All choices come at a price, and his viewpoint is aware of the pros and cons of both sides, not necessarily discounting the costs of one or another.

The gun control comparison is relatively apt. It's easier to demonize the templars(or sympathize with mages) when you're objectifying human beings as a destructive force to be controlled.

Thanks for sharing the tumblr post.

I'd at least like to see that the Templars aren't the DA Cerberus.

Would they be chasing The Illusive Mage?

Modifié par DominusVita, 30 septembre 2013 - 12:42 .

[Navasha]

DA2 was supposed to show the worst of the worst on both sides of the Mage-Templar conflict and Inquisition is supposedly going to start moving toward the direction of solving these issues, then I think breaking both sides up into smaller groups will likely be the answer.

Having the Templars split into the Red Templars, which will still showcase the arrogant, brutal, abusive Templars. Then have the remaining Templars painted in the light of Ser Thrask, who might actively oppose the Red Templars. This would give the player a clear understanding that not all Templars are villans.

A similar scenario with the mages would also seem likely then too. All the raving lunatic blood mages in group A, and all the competent sane mages like Bethany in Group B.

Maybe even have the Mage Group B and the "good" Templars all part of a single group, working together nicely. Perhaps that is what the Inquisition is meant to be.

[Fast Jimmy]

DominusVita wrote...

I'd at least like to see that the Templars aren't the DA Cerberus.

Would they be chasing The Illusive Mage?

Anders? No, he dead. 

[Plaintiff]

I'm well aware of the difficulty of the situation. and that didn't stop me from picking a side very easily.

[Swoopdogg]

 I love morally grey games. It forces one to actually think for themselves when trying to make a decision. You have to make an ethical decision based on your own moral judgement-- not some morality meter.

[Urazz]

Morristair wrote...

I'm glad that Inquisition isn't going to center around the Mage vs. Templar thing (cough Dragon Age 2 cough). I've seen the trailers and such, and it looks there's so much more to the story.

The way I see it, as long as the Circle is run like it is in Ferelden, mages have nothing to complain about. They aren't free, but at least it's not as bad as the Circle in Kirkwall. I can honestly say that I see both sides of the issue, but I'll still always support mages in the game. Provided they aren't slitting their wrists and rampaging through the streets, of course.

I think a better option would be to have the Circle of Magi to serve more as a school to mages so they get proper training and once they graduate from the Circle, they can leave the Circle and live their lives.  Mages still cannot officially hold positions of power like becoming a noble in most circumstances.

Templars would serve as a mage police force to hunt down criminal mages abusing their powers.  Mages can help the Templars perform their duties, if the Templars trust the mages that want to and feel they are capable, but cannot officially join the Templar order.  The Templars would also not be tied to the Chantry anymore but to their respective governments.

Sure there are still dangers but I think this would work as the best solution

Modifié par Urazz, 30 septembre 2013 - 01:04 .

[Xilizhra]

Navasha wrote...

DA2 was supposed to show the worst of the worst on both sides of the Mage-Templar conflict and Inquisition is supposedly going to start moving toward the direction of solving these issues, then I think breaking both sides up into smaller groups will likely be the answer.

Having the Templars split into the Red Templars, which will still showcase the arrogant, brutal, abusive Templars. Then have the remaining Templars painted in the light of Ser Thrask, who might actively oppose the Red Templars. This would give the player a clear understanding that not all Templars are villans.

A similar scenario with the mages would also seem likely then too. All the raving lunatic blood mages in group A, and all the competent sane mages like Bethany in Group B.

Maybe even have the Mage Group B and the "good" Templars all part of a single group, working together nicely. Perhaps that is what the Inquisition is meant to be.

All templars who do not break with the Order's position on imprisoning mages are villains. Nothing any game says will change that.

[AresKeith]

Xilizhra wrote...

Navasha wrote...

DA2 was supposed to show the worst of the worst on both sides of the Mage-Templar conflict and Inquisition is supposedly going to start moving toward the direction of solving these issues, then I think breaking both sides up into smaller groups will likely be the answer.

Having the Templars split into the Red Templars, which will still showcase the arrogant, brutal, abusive Templars. Then have the remaining Templars painted in the light of Ser Thrask, who might actively oppose the Red Templars. This would give the player a clear understanding that not all Templars are villans.

A similar scenario with the mages would also seem likely then too. All the raving lunatic blood mages in group A, and all the competent sane mages like Bethany in Group B.

Maybe even have the Mage Group B and the "good" Templars all part of a single group, working together nicely. Perhaps that is what the Inquisition is meant to be.

All templars who do not break with the Order's position on imprisoning mages are villains. Nothing any game says will change that.

So glad your not on the Bioware team

[Xilizhra]

AresKeith wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Navasha wrote...

DA2 was supposed to show the worst of the worst on both sides of the Mage-Templar conflict and Inquisition is supposedly going to start moving toward the direction of solving these issues, then I think breaking both sides up into smaller groups will likely be the answer.

Having the Templars split into the Red Templars, which will still showcase the arrogant, brutal, abusive Templars. Then have the remaining Templars painted in the light of Ser Thrask, who might actively oppose the Red Templars. This would give the player a clear understanding that not all Templars are villans.

A similar scenario with the mages would also seem likely then too. All the raving lunatic blood mages in group A, and all the competent sane mages like Bethany in Group B.

Maybe even have the Mage Group B and the "good" Templars all part of a single group, working together nicely. Perhaps that is what the Inquisition is meant to be.

All templars who do not break with the Order's position on imprisoning mages are villains. Nothing any game says will change that.

So glad your not on the Bioware team

Are you just following me around by this point?