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[leaguer of one]

MisterJB wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'll post it when I get home to my copy. But it was in the magic section if I recall correctly.

Then I  don't beleive it. The one points of the circle to make sure mages learn to resist demons, how do mages with less power not attract demons?

"Chantry law requires those with significant magical ability to join the nearest Circle and live under its supervision. While Thedosians with extremely low levels of magical talent are generally permitted to go about their lives, they are still closely watched."

Page 99

So..How are these low level mages learn to resist demons and not be com abombinations?

[MisterJB]

leaguer of one wrote...
Wrong. The reason the circle  has problem have nothing to do with the number of mages. The only reason why you want less mages is because  you want it to be easier for you to bring down the hammer. That the problem. You don't have to. Saying if you give them more they will want more is ignorate and lazy thinking. This is the same excuse people use to try to keep segragation on african americans  in the 1950's.  The mages are not going to take an mile when given an inch . It's a poor excuse.

Your president is an African-American! I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with his election but obviously this is an example of how the changing demographics lead to a change in how the country is run.
And yes! The point of the Circle is to control the mages! That requires being able to bring down the hammer if need be!

It nothing to do with encoragement. It's about basic rights.

Arguments based entirely on morality are not very convincing.

If the majority of the system is ignored  by the athority then it is a Tyranny.

Do you think leaders have a vote whenever they make a decision or something?
And hey, mages are a minority.

Giving mages more freedoms is not going to effect the non-mages.

Of course it will. If you, for instance, allow mage apprentices to go home at night after a day of study and one becomes an Abomination in the night and kills his entire village, your increased freedoms for mages just affected plenty of non-mages.

[EmperorSahlertz]

leaguer of one wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'll post it when I get home to my copy. But it was in the magic section if I recall correctly.

Then I  don't beleive it. The one points of the circle to make sure mages learn to resist demons, how do mages with less power not attract demons?

"Chantry law requires those with significant magical ability to join the nearest Circle and live under its supervision. While Thedosians with extremely low levels of magical talent are generally permitted to go about their lives, they are still closely watched."

Page 99

So..How are these low level mages learn to resist demons and not be com abombinations?

Their magical talent is so insignificant that demons probably don't even bother, as long as mages of more appetizing talents exists. And they are after all, still closely watched.

And thanks JB for finding the quote.

[leaguer of one]

MisterJB wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
Wrong. The reason the circle  has problem have nothing to do with the number of mages. The only reason why you want less mages is because  you want it to be easier for you to bring down the hammer. That the problem. You don't have to. Saying if you give them more they will want more is ignorate and lazy thinking. This is the same excuse people use to try to keep segragation on african americans  in the 1950's.  The mages are not going to take an mile when given an inch . It's a poor excuse.

Your president is an African-American! I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with his election but obviously this is an example of how the changing demographics lead to a change in how the country is run.
And yes! The point of the Circle is to control the mages! That requires being able to bring down the hammer if need be!

It nothing to do with encoragement. It's about basic rights.

Arguments based entirely on morality are not very convincing.

If the majority of the system is ignored  by the athority then it is a Tyranny.

Do you think leaders have a vote whenever they make a decision or something?
And hey, mages are a minority.

Giving mages more freedoms is not going to effect the non-mages.

Of course it will. If you, for instance, allow mage apprentices to go home at night after a day of study and one becomes an Abomination in the night and kills his entire village, your increased freedoms for mages just affected plenty of non-mages.

1."Your president is an African-American! I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with his election but obviously this is an example of how the changing demographics lead to a change in how the country is run.
And yes! The point of the Circle is to control the mages! That requires being able to bring down the hammer if need be!"

Wow. That's even a worse excuse. Sorry but the president being african does not mean suddenly all African amarice are going to restrict all the right of most of america.   Saying giving a mage more rights is wrong because on day they can rule is a base less arguement. Giving mages more freedom is not going to turn the the world into the teverntor imperium. This would be like saying giving the elves more freedom will allow them to make an elven empire that will inslave all the humans. It's a very ignorate excuse.
Added, the point of the circle is to control magic , not mages. Mages are just cunduit of magic. Allowing mages to have more freedoms is to going to endanger others.

2."Arguments based entirely on morality are not very convincing."

It has nothing to do with moral.  There is no reason why the chantry allown has the right to dictate law or what people can do.

3."Of course it will. If you, for instance, allow mage apprentices to go home at night after a day of study and one becomes an Abomination in the night and kills his entire village, your increased freedoms for mages just affected plenty of non-mages."

Who said anything about mages living in non-mages towns. I'm thinking of giving mages there own township around a tower. To build their own community. Not just restrict them to just the tower. I'm not saying no regulation.

[leaguer of one]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'll post it when I get home to my copy. But it was in the magic section if I recall correctly.

Then I  don't beleive it. The one points of the circle to make sure mages learn to resist demons, how do mages with less power not attract demons?

"Chantry law requires those with significant magical ability to join the nearest Circle and live under its supervision. While Thedosians with extremely low levels of magical talent are generally permitted to go about their lives, they are still closely watched."

Page 99

So..How are these low level mages learn to resist demons and not be com abombinations?

Their magical talent is so insignificant that demons probably don't even bother, as long as mages of more appetizing talents exists. And they are after all, still closely watched.

And thanks JB for finding the quote.

I'm sorry but that is bs. There is not such thing as  a non-traquil mage that is so unappetizing that a demon will not go after them. And if they are outside of the circle there normally are no other mages around for the demons to want more. Sorry but demon go after mages no matter the power level. They can turn to abombination just like any other mage. No way would the chantry ignore that.

[dragonflight288]

Mister JB wrote....

I gave you logical reasons. Mage overpopulation, difficulty to control, mage emotions, non-mage children.
Are you going to adress them or just continuing to use morality as a shield?

Morality is key to humane treatment, but if you insist I'll use pragmatic reasons.

Mage overpopulation- My answer. It's never presented as a problem in the game, the books or anything of the sort. As such, without evidence, complaints or even templars mentioning it, the answer is simple. There is no mage overpopulation.

Difficulty to control- As opposed....to what? A system that demonizes mages for existing and blames them all for the events of the Magisters entering the black city by a military force trained to hate them? Oh yeah, that system already works well. Worked really well when Wynne realized that Rhys was her son too.

Wait, it didn't. So no, taking away children and keeping them from having children doesn't work either.

Mage emotions- We see in the mage origin the enchanters training apprentices. One mage sets himself alight and another nearly gets obliterated because he lets his fear control him while he's using a shield.

They are already being trained to handle their emotions to control their power. Taking away their children, immediately upon them being born only adds to the stress and anxiety of the mage, and add in post-parthum (I know I spelled that wrong) depression, and suddenly taking away their children does nothing to help control their emotions at all. Instead, it amplifies them.

Non-mage children- Why on earth couldn't a mage who's been fully trained not handle having a child who isn't a mage?

Modifié par dragonflight288, 02 octobre 2013 - 10:46 .

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Mage overpopulation- My answer. It's never presented as a problem in the game, the books or anything of the sort. As such, without evidence, complaints or even templars mentioning it, the answer is simple. There is no mage overpopulation.

And that is because their reproduction is disencouraged. If mages are suddenly allowed to just have as many kids as they wish, we're looking at an population explosion.

Difficulty to control- As opposed....to what? A system that demonizes mages for existing and blames them all for the events of the Magisters entering the black city by a military force trained to hate them? Oh yeah, that system already works well. Worked really well when Wynne realized that Rhys was her son too.

50 mages are easier to control than 500. That simple logic is not related to the current system. We could have an entire overhaul and that simple fact would remain true.

Mage emotions- We see in the mage origin the enchanters training apprentices. One mage sets himself alight and another nearly gets obliterated because he lets his fear control him while he's using a shield.

They are already being trained to handle their emotions to control their power. Taking away their children, immediately upon them being born only adds to the stress and anxiety of the mage, and add in post-parthum (I know I spelled that wrong) depression, and suddenly taking away their children does nothing to help control their emotions at all. Instead, it amplifies them.

A mage can't miss what it never had; on the other hand, children can be quite an handful. Just ask any new parents.

Non-mage children- Why on earth couldn't a mage who's been fully trained not handle having a child who isn't a mage?

Is the non-mage child going to be kept in the Circle, isolated from the outside world needlessly? And when it becomes obvious the child isn't a mage? Is it going to be thrown out?
How will it interact with other non-mages? How will it learn a trade?

[Sylvius the Mad]

MisterJB wrote...

Arguments based entirely on morality are not very convincing.

Do you expect mages to find arguments based on pragmatism convincing?

All your proposal does is encourage violent uprising.

[EmperorSahlertz]

leaguer of one wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'll post it when I get home to my copy. But it was in the magic section if I recall correctly.

Then I  don't beleive it. The one points of the circle to make sure mages learn to resist demons, how do mages with less power not attract demons?

"Chantry law requires those with significant magical ability to join the nearest Circle and live under its supervision. While Thedosians with extremely low levels of magical talent are generally permitted to go about their lives, they are still closely watched."

Page 99

So..How are these low level mages learn to resist demons and not be com abombinations?

Their magical talent is so insignificant that demons probably don't even bother, as long as mages of more appetizing talents exists. And they are after all, still closely watched.

And thanks JB for finding the quote.

I'm sorry but that is bs. There is not such thing as  a non-traquil mage that is so unappetizing that a demon will not go after them. And if they are outside of the circle there normally are no other mages around for the demons to want more. Sorry but demon go after mages no matter the power level. They can turn to abombination just like any other mage. No way would the chantry ignore that.

The lore clearly states that the greater the amgical talent, the more appetizing the mage is to the Demon. Then logcally, the less the magical talent, the less appetizing the mage is. Therefore, if the magical talent is so insignificant that you can abrely differentiate between a mundane and the mage, the demon would probably not bother, since there are so many other more tasty targets out there.

[MisterJB]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Do you expect mages to find arguments based on pragmatism convincing?
All your proposal does is encourage violent uprising.

I haven't made a proposal, I'm just pointing out flaws in the proposals of others.
And should mages and non-mages ever sit to discuss what is to be done, I'd hope the mages would send representatives whose primary concern would be reaching an agreement that is satisfatory for their faction rather than someone unable to make concessions because of "inalienable human rigths".
The mage's ranks are replenished with children from the outside world, they don't require birthing their own in order to mantain numbers capable of giving weight to their arguments.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Do we even know if magic is hereditary or bound by genetics?

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 02 octobre 2013 - 11:39 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Do we even know if magic is hereditary or bound by genetics?

Technically we do not. But, in Tevinter they seem to believe so, and they marry into family bloodlines with "strong magic". But we don't have any concrete proof that it is based on genes, or simply "just because".

[Cainhurst Crow]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Do we even know if magic is hereditary or bound by genetics?

Technically we do not. But, in Tevinter they seem to believe so, and they marry into family bloodlines with "strong magic". But we don't have any concrete proof that it is based on genes, or simply "just because".

People of thedas also believe being related to a great grand father who did something a long time ago makes you best qualified to rule. Belief in bloodlines having something to do with other qualities of life isn't that rare, and doesn't seem to actually have any merit.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Do we even know if magic is hereditary or bound by genetics?

Technically we do not. But, in Tevinter they seem to believe so, and they marry into family bloodlines with "strong magic". But we don't have any concrete proof that it is based on genes, or simply "just because".

People of thedas also believe being related to a great grand father who did something a long time ago makes you best qualified to rule. Belief in bloodlines having something to do with other qualities of life isn't that rare, and doesn't seem to actually have any merit.

I know, but I don't think the Tevinters would continue the practice, if there weren't something to it. Wether or not it is genetic, we can't ever know. We can't even know wether it works or not, without access to full family trees of the prominent mage families..

[cjones91]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Do we even know if magic is hereditary or bound by genetics?

Technically we do not. But, in Tevinter they seem to believe so, and they marry into family bloodlines with "strong magic". But we don't have any concrete proof that it is based on genes, or simply "just because".

People of thedas also believe being related to a great grand father who did something a long time ago makes you best qualified to rule. Belief in bloodlines having something to do with other qualities of life isn't that rare, and doesn't seem to actually have any merit.

I know, but I don't think the Tevinters would continue the practice, if there weren't something to it. Wether or not it is genetic, we can't ever know. We can't even know wether it works or not, without access to full family trees of the prominent mage families..

I imagine it's like how people use selective breeding to produce the best racing dog or horse.Tevinter probaly uses a similiar method and encourages certain families that have magic in their line to produce children.

[Cainhurst Crow]

cjones91 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Do we even know if magic is hereditary or bound by genetics?

Technically we do not. But, in Tevinter they seem to believe so, and they marry into family bloodlines with "strong magic". But we don't have any concrete proof that it is based on genes, or simply "just because".

People of thedas also believe being related to a great grand father who did something a long time ago makes you best qualified to rule. Belief in bloodlines having something to do with other qualities of life isn't that rare, and doesn't seem to actually have any merit.

I know, but I don't think the Tevinters would continue the practice, if there weren't something to it. Wether or not it is genetic, we can't ever know. We can't even know wether it works or not, without access to full family trees of the prominent mage families..

I imagine it's like how people use selective breeding to produce the best racing dog or horse.Tevinter probaly uses a similiar method and encourages certain families that have magic in their line to produce children.

Assuming that is even how it magic works at all, and it isn't just up to chance.

[LobselVith8]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Do we even know if magic is hereditary or bound by genetics?

It seems to be. Leandra mentions that magic runs in her family, and the opposition to Malcolm by her parents was that she was bringing more magic into their line, not less.

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Do we even know if magic is hereditary or bound by genetics?

It seems to be. Leandra mentions that magic runs in her family, and the opposition to Malcolm by her parents was that she was bringing more magic into their line, not less.

It's probably like Harry Potter. Non-mage families end up having a mage child, and magic sticks to the bloodline.

How often it'll show up, though, is the kicker.

[leaguer of one]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'll post it when I get home to my copy. But it was in the magic section if I recall correctly.

Then I  don't beleive it. The one points of the circle to make sure mages learn to resist demons, how do mages with less power not attract demons?

"Chantry law requires those with significant magical ability to join the nearest Circle and live under its supervision. While Thedosians with extremely low levels of magical talent are generally permitted to go about their lives, they are still closely watched."

Page 99

So..How are these low level mages learn to resist demons and not be com abombinations?

Their magical talent is so insignificant that demons probably don't even bother, as long as mages of more appetizing talents exists. And they are after all, still closely watched.

And thanks JB for finding the quote.

I'm sorry but that is bs. There is not such thing as  a non-traquil mage that is so unappetizing that a demon will not go after them. And if they are outside of the circle there normally are no other mages around for the demons to want more. Sorry but demon go after mages no matter the power level. They can turn to abombination just like any other mage. No way would the chantry ignore that.

The lore clearly states that the greater the amgical talent, the more appetizing the mage is to the Demon. Then logcally, the less the magical talent, the less appetizing the mage is. Therefore, if the magical talent is so insignificant that you can abrely differentiate between a mundane and the mage, the demon would probably not bother, since there are so many other more tasty targets out there.

You are not getting my point. I'm not saying a demon don't like to go after stronger mages. I'm saying they don't ignore other weaker ones, especially when the weaker one that are all thats there. There is no such thing as magic talent so insignificant that it won't attrack demons If there are no stronger mages they go after the low level mage.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The lore clearly states that the greater the amgical talent, the more appetizing the mage is to the Demon. Then logcally, the less the magical talent, the less appetizing the mage is. Therefore, if the magical talent is so insignificant that you can abrely differentiate between a mundane and the mage, the demon would probably not bother, since there are so many other more tasty targets out there.

I seem to recall some sort of developer quote that said that even the weakest mage attracts demons.

[leaguer of one]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The lore clearly states that the greater the amgical talent, the more appetizing the mage is to the Demon. Then logcally, the less the magical talent, the less appetizing the mage is. Therefore, if the magical talent is so insignificant that you can abrely differentiate between a mundane and the mage, the demon would probably not bother, since there are so many other more tasty targets out there.

I seem to recall some sort of developer quote that said that even the weakest mage attracts demons.

That's part of the lore as well. The only time a mages does not attract demons is when they are tranquil.

[Medhia Nox]

This whole demon thing really needs to be forced on the mage PC for perspective.

"But I don't want my PC to be altered by outside forces!"

Yeah, well - being a DA mage is dangerous now isn't it? Now you "get it".

[Heimdall]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The lore clearly states that the greater the amgical talent, the more appetizing the mage is to the Demon. Then logcally, the less the magical talent, the less appetizing the mage is. Therefore, if the magical talent is so insignificant that you can abrely differentiate between a mundane and the mage, the demon would probably not bother, since there are so many other more tasty targets out there.

I seem to recall some sort of developer quote that said that even the weakest mage attracts demons.

Admittedly I don't remember where, but I actually think I read a quote from Gaider saying a Mage of little and untrained talent is indistinguishable from a mundane as far as demons are concerned.

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

This whole demon thing really needs to be forced on the mage PC for perspective.

"But I don't want my PC to be altered by outside forces!"

Yeah, well - being a DA mage is dangerous now isn't it? Now you "get it".

Or, more likely, it's a much less common danger than the Chantry says.

[Medhia Nox]

@Lord Aesir: And what if the pathetic little weakling turns to blood magic like Jowan?

Demons "seem" to think blood mages are hell-arious - look at the Hunger Demon that mocks Avernus.

Sometimes the weaklings - if also craven power mongers - might be the most dangerous.

@Xilizhra: You obviously haven't played the two Dragon Age games.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 03 octobre 2013 - 02:30 .