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[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: Stop making things up - the Codex on abominations does not signify when.

Find me the Codex or appropriate statement in one of the games where it specifically states they can only do it forcefully when the Veil is thin.

Otherwise - your assertions are baseless.

Show me anywhere in the game where it's happened when not in a thin Veil area. Your assertion that the codex stating a possibility also states that it can occur anytime and anywhere is itself false.

Logical fallacy, Xil. You should no better... especially since you know that your unfounded claim (that it can only be done where the Veil is then) is impossible to disprove as there is no metric on the strength of the veil or any known limit on what a possession threshhold is.

Logic, and ethical, integrity doesn't require anyone else disprove your claims... you yourself will have to support them. Which, given the previous problems with it, is impossible- you don't even know how the Veil works as a system, let alone how localized any weakening in it is.

Perhaps... but to me, it seems that the idea that demons can possess mages regardless of Veil conditions actually requires more extraordinary assumptions about their level of power and danger as compared to what we've actually seen in the world. If "only when the Veil is thin" is an unfounded assumption, "anytime, anywhere" is equally unfounded.

What's extraordinary about it? They can tempt you in a remote, backwoods town. They can tempt you in a castle with no major mage population. They can tempt you in a tower. They can be found in crowded cities.

They can always tempt you in your dreams, because by a cornerstone of the lore all mages are awake in the fade when dreaming, and the Fade is their domain.

This isn't extraordinary stuff- this was the baseline established in DAO, when demons did all of that. That demons are more active in areas with fade tears doesn't mean they are unable to act elsewhere... especially since we have seen them act elsewhere.

Demons don't need a level of power to overwhelm and posses someone- in fact, that isn't their modus opperandi. Demons just need a person with a moment of weakness. It can be coerced (torture), it can be tricked (the mage origin), it can be instigated and planned (the Pride demon targetting Merrill), or it could be unrelated happenstance (Redcliffe, in which entirely unrelated issues made a young boy fear for his father).

None of these required the demons to overpower people... it required people, under stress, to open themselves up just once. Which is what is meant by any time, anywhere.

[addiction21]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

And should mages and non-mages ever sit to discuss what is to be done, I'd hope the mages would send representatives whose primary concern would be reaching an agreement that is satisfatory for their faction rather than someone unable to make concessions because of "inalienable human rigths".

The only satisfactory agreement would be one that doesn't include non-voluntary imprisonment for mages.

I don't see a peaceful solution.  I never have.  The mages need to assert their freedom through force.

Something like this can never be peacefully resolved. Asunder showed there is a large group that's wants bloody revolt and they will sink to what ever level needed to accomplish that and sway the moderate mages to their side. Same goes for the Templars.

The fanatics of both sides need to be culled and the moderates need to step up in their place. To bad in these situations its the moderates that get killed off while the fanatics sit back and preach their extreimism views and don't go away.

All mages have to accept they are inherently dangerous and need to learn and control their lives. The rest of the people in the setting need to accept that just because someone is a mage doesn't mean they have to be locked away for the entirety of their life to do nothing. Those wanting should be allowed to ply their trades like healing the sick.

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...

So creating a single centralized area where all magic is done is actually more dangerous? Hmmm.

That's only a problem if your goal is actually keeping mages alive. Regardless of what some posters say, I have a hard time believing the Templars actually give a fudge. 

At the same time, we might want to ask how it is that Minrathos isn't a crater. Clearly the magisters have something that keeps them safe. Perhaps they could be made to part with that knowledge. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

It doesn't matter if the non-mages are represented by governments, or private organizations, or random people. Non-mages are still the majority of the population, and any equal voting system that claims to be representing their interests isn't giving them equal power- it's empowering the mages at their expense.

But this body doesn't govern any nonmages.

By the sounds of it you can't make them govern mages either, but it's irrelevant- you aren't giving equal power to the interests of mages and non-mages.

And if the sentinels see that there is a problem, but the mages say 'no' and keep them out?

Given that mages will be, well, mages, and the sentinals will be fewer numbers of mages and possibly (but less effectively) mundanes, you have a recipie for an impotent enforcement organization.

My initial plan was to have them have templar abilities.

Templars are only able to enforce their views on the mages because they outnumber them and are able to engage them in contexts that bring their advantage to bear. Templars are not immune to magic- they are just less suceptible.

Of course, this may create further political difficulties if the mages dislike this arrangement as being too reminiscent of the old Circle. If so... that may be more difficult. Grace would definitely be needed.

Grace will be dead, eventually. Any system that is dependent on a personality to maintain itself is doomed.

Unequal parties given equal voting power do not share equal power.

I thought you were more worried about the mages taking power?

I am more worried about mages being able to abuse their power- fortunately, 'no power' versus 'all power' versus 'equal power' is a false delimma.

This is me tearing apart your faulty construct of rhetoric.

But you can, however, start planning how an effective institution would work, so that you can recognize and avoid creating an ineffective one.

True.

[Xilizhra]

What's extraordinary about it? They can tempt you in a remote, backwoods town. They can tempt you in a castle with no major mage population. They can tempt you in a tower. They can be found in crowded cities.

Which one is the first one? The tower was when previous demon summoning had already let a bunch through, the one in the castle had been deliberately called, and the crowded city was a blood-soaked sacrificial glyph. Unless you mean the ones that crossed over into the Alienage orphanage after the slaughter there, and they didn't even possess anyone.

Demons don't need a level of power to overwhelm and posses someone- in fact, that isn't their modus opperandi. Demons just need a person with a moment of weakness. It can be coerced (torture), it can be tricked (the mage origin), it can be instigated and planned (the Pride demon targetting Merrill), or it could be unrelated happenstance (Redcliffe, in which entirely unrelated issues made a young boy fear for his father).

Merrill was a red herring; the demon was actually after Marethari. Just FYI.

None of these required the demons to overpower people... it required people, under stress, to open themselves up just once. Which is what is meant by any time, anywhere.

And I have not seen that.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So creating a single centralized area where all magic is done is actually more dangerous? Hmmm.

That's only a problem if your goal is actually keeping mages alive. Regardless of what some posters say, I have a hard time believing the Templars actually give a fudge. 

At the same time, we might want to ask how it is that Minrathos isn't a crater. Clearly the magisters have something that keeps them safe. Perhaps they could be made to part with that knowledge. 

The Tevinter system, from all I understand from Gaider, is largely the same as the White Chantry system. The only difference is that the very top-ranked mages are allowed freedom from and control of this system.

The reason that Minrathous isn't a smoking crater, I believe, is that the danger from abominations is quality of the monsters rather than quantity. Abominations are powerful, but they aren't many. It also helps that the mages who are allowed out of the Circles and into the general population in Tevinter are presumably all Harrowed, if the systems are as similar as I took from Gaider's comments. Wynne is allowed out into the general population several times. Is Denerim a crater?  Amaranthine?

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 03 octobre 2013 - 05:22 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The only satisfactory agreement would be one that doesn't include non-voluntary imprisonment for mages.

I don't see a peaceful solution.  I never have.  The mages need to assert their freedom through force.

And be slaughtered by Templars.

That would, ultimately, provide peace, yes.

As long as non-mages fear mages, the only lasting peace will arise from one side subjugating or destroying the other.

[dragonflight288]

That would, ultimately, provide peace, yes.

As long as non-mages fear mages, the only lasting peace will arise from one side subjugating or destroying the other.

I wouldn't go that far. I think it's extreme to slaughter either side. Now the extremists on either side could use a good purging.

[leaguer of one]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Actually, that was consensual. Technically. The mage agreed under torture.

Hmm don't remember that. But you may be correct.

Uldred: Do you accept the gift I offer?
Broken Mage: *nods*
Uldred: *turns him*

He did not nod.  He nod the mages head for him. Then the rest of the fight he turn mages to abombination with out even asking.

I think I can see the forced nod, but he does ask the mages while he's trying to turn them. Whether or not that means the turning is consensual for magical purposes, I couldn't tell you.

but a force nod is not consensual.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

leaguer of one wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Uldred: Do you accept the gift I offer?
Broken Mage: *nods*
Uldred: *turns him*

He did not nod.  He nod the mages head for him. Then the rest of the fight he turn mages to abombination with out even asking.

I think I can see the forced nod, but he does ask the mages while he's trying to turn them. Whether or not that means the turning is consensual for magical purposes, I couldn't tell you.

but a force nod is not consensual.

Nothing about this is really consensual. Even Uldred wasn't willing by this point. But what I'm speculating on is whether the mages who are tortured into turning are being tortured into being too weak to resist a forced possession, or into giving something that counts as consent for the purposes of the possession.

[leaguer of one]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Uldred: Do you accept the gift I offer?
Broken Mage: *nods*
Uldred: *turns him*

He did not nod.  He nod the mages head for him. Then the rest of the fight he turn mages to abombination with out even asking.

I think I can see the forced nod, but he does ask the mages while he's trying to turn them. Whether or not that means the turning is consensual for magical purposes, I couldn't tell you.

but a force nod is not consensual.

Nothing about this is really consensual. Even Uldred wasn't willing by this point. But what I'm speculating on is whether the mages who are tortured into turning are being tortured into being too weak to resist a forced possession, or into giving something that counts as consent for the purposes of the possession.

They clearly were too weak to even resist.

[Vit246]

I think Bioware has yet to fully flesh out the mechanics of demonic possession.

[leaguer of one]

Vit246 wrote...

I think Bioware has yet to fully flesh out the mechanics of demonic possession.

More of a case no one in the world of Thedas is willing to test it in so much detal.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 03 octobre 2013 - 06:50 .

[Vit246]

leaguer of one wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

I think Bioware has yet to fully flesh out the mechanics of demonic possession.

More of a case no one in the world of Thedas is will to test it in so much detal.

Tevinter may be the expert.

[EmperorSahlertz]

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So creating a single centralized area where all magic is done is actually more dangerous? Hmmm.

That's only a problem if your goal is actually keeping mages alive. Regardless of what some posters say, I have a hard time believing the Templars actually give a fudge. 

At the same time, we might want to ask how it is that Minrathos isn't a crater. Clearly the magisters have something that keeps them safe. Perhaps they could be made to part with that knowledge. 

Tevinter is first of all a big place. So it is highly illogical to presume that they don't have demonic possessions there, given their widespread mage population. However, Tevinter itself got Templars and their own Circle system, so they are using pretty much the same precautions as the rest of Thedas for demonic possessions. Also, their mages are more highly trained than anyone else.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So creating a single centralized area where all magic is done is actually more dangerous? Hmmm.

That's only a problem if your goal is actually keeping mages alive. Regardless of what some posters say, I have a hard time believing the Templars actually give a fudge. 

At the same time, we might want to ask how it is that Minrathos isn't a crater. Clearly the magisters have something that keeps them safe. Perhaps they could be made to part with that knowledge. 

Tevinter is first of all a big place. So it is highly illogical to presume that they don't have demonic possessions there, given their widespread mage population. However, Tevinter itself got Templars and their own Circle system, so they are using pretty much the same precautions as the rest of Thedas for demonic possessions. Also, their mages are more highly trained than anyone else.

Since there are so many people in Tevinter, it stands to reason that are a proportionate larger amount of templars present. Also, the Tevinter magisters are probably more than capable to taking down abominations.

[leaguer of one]

Vit246 wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

I think Bioware has yet to fully flesh out the mechanics of demonic possession.

More of a case no one in the world of Thedas is will to test it in so much detal.

Tevinter may be the expert.

Tevinter would never waste any mages like that. Non-mages they will do that with no care.

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So creating a single centralized area where all magic is done is actually more dangerous? Hmmm.

That's only a problem if your goal is actually keeping mages alive. Regardless of what some posters say, I have a hard time believing the Templars actually give a fudge. 

At the same time, we might want to ask how it is that Minrathos isn't a crater. Clearly the magisters have something that keeps them safe. Perhaps they could be made to part with that knowledge. 

Tevinter is first of all a big place. So it is highly illogical to presume that they don't have demonic possessions there, given their widespread mage population. However, Tevinter itself got Templars and their own Circle system, so they are using pretty much the same precautions as the rest of Thedas for demonic possessions. Also, their mages are more highly trained than anyone else.

Since there are so many people in Tevinter, it stands to reason that are a proportionate larger amount of templars present. Also, the Tevinter magisters are probably more than capable to taking down abominations.

Probably yes. But since they also dabble in blood magic on such a large scale, they probably also have a higher abomination-per-mage ratio. And Tevinter probably doesn't have more Templars than the rest of Thedas combined, and the Tevinter Templars only rarely exhibit the otherwise common Templar abilities.

[Lotion Soronarr]

leaguer of one wrote...
He did not nod.  He nod the mages head for him.

I don't think that can be proven either way.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Morocco Mole wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
Tevinter would never waste any mages like that. Non-mages they will do that with no care.

Weak mages are just as much a target in Tevinter as anything else.

But weak mages are barely a target at all. The weaker the mage, the less interesting a target for demons. That is what established lore says.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So creating a single centralized area where all magic is done is actually more dangerous? Hmmm.

That's only a problem if your goal is actually keeping mages alive. Regardless of what some posters say, I have a hard time believing the Templars actually give a fudge. 

At the same time, we might want to ask how it is that Minrathos isn't a crater. Clearly the magisters have something that keeps them safe. Perhaps they could be made to part with that knowledge. 

Tevinter is first of all a big place. So it is highly illogical to presume that they don't have demonic possessions there, given their widespread mage population. However, Tevinter itself got Templars and their own Circle system, so they are using pretty much the same precautions as the rest of Thedas for demonic possessions. Also, their mages are more highly trained than anyone else.

Since there are so many people in Tevinter, it stands to reason that are a proportionate larger amount of templars present. Also, the Tevinter magisters are probably more than capable to taking down abominations.

Probably yes. But since they also dabble in blood magic on such a large scale, they probably also have a higher abomination-per-mage ratio. And Tevinter probably doesn't have more Templars than the rest of Thedas combined, and the Tevinter Templars only rarely exhibit the otherwise common Templar abilities.

I would be inclined to disagree since we have not much proof regarding Tevinter Templar practices. However, I view the Templars in Tevinter as more being the pawns of magisters, especially since the Black Divine is indeed a mage. Templars are probably used to discredit enemies with allegations of "blood magic" or being an abomination. As a matter of fact, you could argue that Templars are much more a political weapon than religious in Tevinter.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Otherwise beaten or enslaved mages still would serve the point though. In Tevinter mages can suffer as much as the worst mundanes. They just have much greater opportunities than mundanes too.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 03 octobre 2013 - 07:33 .

[Vit246]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
Tevinter would never waste any mages like that. Non-mages they will do that with no care.

Weak mages are just as much a target in Tevinter as anything else.

But weak mages are barely a target at all. The weaker the mage, the less interesting a target for demons. That is what established lore says.

That doesn't make sense. The weaker the mage, the more easier and attractive it should be as a target for demons.

Cite it.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
Tevinter would never waste any mages like that. Non-mages they will do that with no care.

Weak mages are just as much a target in Tevinter as anything else.

But weak mages are barely a target at all. The weaker the mage, the less interesting a target for demons. That is what established lore says.

Not necessarily. A weaker mage might be an easier target to seduce. And demons can more than likely supercharge or at least amplify what a "weak" mage can do exponentially.