2497 réponses à ce sujet

[HiroVoid]

If the comic in question is one of the original comics back around Dragon Age: Origins, I think we can dismiss those about as easily as one can dismiss the novels for Baldur's Gate and Planescape: Torment back in the day.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Sometimes I think Bioware's just winging it and making **** up as they go along. And it makes me agree with something Fast Jimmy told me, which I'll paraphrase: Get your bigger details set up from the get-go. And this is a big detail here, because it changes the dynamic of the entire Mage-Templar issue.

It doesn't seem consistent with the lore we've been previously given. If it had been presented in DAO in a way that was consistent (like a Templar simply saying, "Yeah, sometimes exceptions are made, but you ain't one of 'em pallie."

I dislike this new bit because of its inconsistency. Inconsistent writing bugs me a lot, and it seems like a poor attempt to try and make the Chantry not seem so bad (when there are other ways to do that).

I think they're usually better about this, if the new lore you're objecting to is even a thing.

[TEWR]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

I think they're usually better about this, if the new lore you're objecting to is even a thing.

It's something from World of Thedas.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

I think they're usually better about this, if the new lore you're objecting to is even a thing.

It's something from World of Thedas.

That explains why this is the first I'm hearing of it, I guess.

Anyway, I think Bioware's usually better about keeping to previous rules. (Or do I just think that because I've never played DA2?)

[TEWR]

Probably because you haven't played DAII, yeah. DAII threw out the fact that Templars and Mages can sense Veil disturbances... and mages... bit of lore. And I think a few other things.

But that's the main one that comes to mind.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Filament wrote...

I'd never heard about this "letting weak mages go" rule either. It seemed pretty clearly to be "harrowing or rite" as the whole source of the conflict in the mage origin.

One of the Codex entries was the diary of a weak mage. Spoiler Warning: they don't let him go because of it.

Edit: Has this already been brought up?

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 06 octobre 2013 - 06:56 .

[TEWR]

Nope, hasn't been brought up yet.

EDIT: Three codexes, none of them mentioning another option but all of them are very clear on the Rite or Fight notion

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 06 octobre 2013 - 07:09 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Nope, hasn't been brought up yet.

EDIT: Three codexes, none of them mentioning another option but all of them are very clear on the Rite or Fight notion

To be fair, the third one covers a powerful but unstable mage. Even if weak mages were spared, Orana wouldn't have been.

[TEWR]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Nope, hasn't been brought up yet.

EDIT: Three codexes, none of them mentioning another option but all of them are very clear on the Rite or Fight notion

To be fair, the third one covers a powerful but unstable mage. Even if weak mages were spared, Orana wouldn't have been.

True. Maybe she was Somniari?

[MakutaDax]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Nope, hasn't been brought up yet.

EDIT: Three codexes, none of them mentioning another option but all of them are very clear on the Rite or Fight notion

To be fair, the third one covers a powerful but unstable mage. Even if weak mages were spared, Orana wouldn't have been.

True. Maybe she was Somniari?

That's definitely what it sounds like. Her experience seems very similar to what Faynriel and his mother describe, only more advanced. That's why I usually send him to the Dalish; I just assume the Circle has little info on Dreamers and the Templars have less interest in taking care of such dangerous individuals. At least I can trust the Dalish to try. xD

[DPSSOC]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Ok you're undermining your own argument here.  If it's possible to gauge a mage as too weak to face the Harrowing then clearly it is something that can be measured, even if only through observation of their abilities at work.

Observing a Mage's abilities and potential strength is logical. But the point is that when the Mages have done that in the past, they've followed a very certain ruleset: Harrowing or Tranquility. Nothing else.

Yet we've never even heard of the Circle of Magi and Chantry once allowing a Mage to live outside of the Circle, save through accomplishments done in the past (Wilhelm, Hawke, Wynne).

We've never even seen a Mage attempt to leave the Circle by pretending to be too weak and trying to convince people of that. The Templar in Origins guarding the door in the Magi Origin said that Mages don't ever get to just be outside the , as well. Duncan says the Templars watch over all Mages.

Which is only evidence that they keep it quiet.  Keep in mind they keep mages in the dark about the nature of the Harrowing, you think they're going to advertise that if you're weak enough they'll let you go?  Mages they let go are probably taken in the night, snuck out, and everyone assumes they were grabbed for their Harrowing and failed.  The mages themselves are probably sworn to secrecy under penalty of Tranquility.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
The codex on Abominations not only says that Demons always attempt to possess a Mage when they encounter one, but that the Circle weeds out those who are too at risk. Frankly, if you're a weak mage you are at too much risk (hence the RoT).

Furthermore... Meredith's sister was possessed by a Demon and went Abomination, and she was only a commoner (ignoring right now how I've argued in the past a credibility issue on her sister story cuz of the idol). So yeah... if weak mages are safe because Demons won't pester them, explain that one. Her sister, an untrained peasant mage (and thus no power like Connor, the Arl's son), went Abomination despite this new lore saying weak mages are not targeted by Demons?

 
Hmm that's not the impression I've gotten.  Haven't read World of Thedas mind but from the way it was presented (released but watched) it strikes me less as them not being target and more that they're easily managed.  We also don't know the innate strength of Connor and Meredith's sister.  It could be that with proper training they would have each been a powerhouse and as untrained as they were they still had access to a lot of raw power.  We also don't know if demons are able to gauge that.  There's a lot we don't know about demonic possession and mage strength so it's really hard to draw conclusions.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I would think that if this were a thing that happened, many Mages would have actually brought it up in DAO, whether for the unfairness or just as simple "Hey, some Mages do live outside the halls and are connected to the Circle/Chantry, so it's not all bad". Plus, when Mages were deemed too weak to even have a shot at the Harrowing they were chosen for Tranquility.

Again you're assuming it must be common knowledge.  It could be something only the Knight Commander is made aware of for all we know.  You're also assuming it's common enough to be noteworthy, this could be a once a generation thing if that.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It probably goes; child shows signs of magic at around age 6, is sent to the Circle, receives training under one or more mentors for at least 10 years let's say, and then, when the time comes to say yay or nay to the Harrowing, the mentor makes a case that not only is a student too weak to face the Harrowing, but is in fact weak enough that they could be allowed to live among normal people.

Yet in the past, if you were deemed really weak, you were chosen for Tranquility. The Chantry wasn't willing to take the chance. If you were deemed capable and had a shot, you went through the trial by fire.

Now they are willing to take the chance?

We assumed, based on what we knew, that the options are Tranquility or Harrowing, and most of what we knew came from Jowan.

[Silfren]

DPSSOC wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Ok you're undermining your own argument here.  If it's possible to gauge a mage as too weak to face the Harrowing then clearly it is something that can be measured, even if only through observation of their abilities at work.

Observing a Mage's abilities and potential strength is logical. But the point is that when the Mages have done that in the past, they've followed a very certain ruleset: Harrowing or Tranquility. Nothing else.

Yet we've never even heard of the Circle of Magi and Chantry once allowing a Mage to live outside of the Circle, save through accomplishments done in the past (Wilhelm, Hawke, Wynne).

We've never even seen a Mage attempt to leave the Circle by pretending to be too weak and trying to convince people of that. The Templar in Origins guarding the door in the Magi Origin said that Mages don't ever get to just be outside the , as well. Duncan says the Templars watch over all Mages.

Which is only evidence that they keep it quiet.  Keep in mind they keep mages in the dark about the nature of the Harrowing, you think they're going to advertise that if you're weak enough they'll let you go?  Mages they let go are probably taken in the night, snuck out, and everyone assumes they were grabbed for their Harrowing and failed.  The mages themselves are probably sworn to secrecy under penalty of Tranquility.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
The codex on Abominations not only says that Demons always attempt to possess a Mage when they encounter one, but that the Circle weeds out those who are too at risk. Frankly, if you're a weak mage you are at too much risk (hence the RoT).

Furthermore... Meredith's sister was possessed by a Demon and went Abomination, and she was only a commoner (ignoring right now how I've argued in the past a credibility issue on her sister story cuz of the idol). So yeah... if weak mages are safe because Demons won't pester them, explain that one. Her sister, an untrained peasant mage (and thus no power like Connor, the Arl's son), went Abomination despite this new lore saying weak mages are not targeted by Demons?

 
Hmm that's not the impression I've gotten.  Haven't read World of Thedas mind but from the way it was presented (released but watched) it strikes me less as them not being target and more that they're easily managed.  We also don't know the innate strength of Connor and Meredith's sister.  It could be that with proper training they would have each been a powerhouse and as untrained as they were they still had access to a lot of raw power.  We also don't know if demons are able to gauge that.  There's a lot we don't know about demonic possession and mage strength so it's really hard to draw conclusions.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I would think that if this were a thing that happened, many Mages would have actually brought it up in DAO, whether for the unfairness or just as simple "Hey, some Mages do live outside the halls and are connected to the Circle/Chantry, so it's not all bad". Plus, when Mages were deemed too weak to even have a shot at the Harrowing they were chosen for Tranquility.

Again you're assuming it must be common knowledge.  It could be something only the Knight Commander is made aware of for all we know.  You're also assuming it's common enough to be noteworthy, this could be a once a generation thing if that.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It probably goes; child shows signs of magic at around age 6, is sent to the Circle, receives training under one or more mentors for at least 10 years let's say, and then, when the time comes to say yay or nay to the Harrowing, the mentor makes a case that not only is a student too weak to face the Harrowing, but is in fact weak enough that they could be allowed to live among normal people.

Yet in the past, if you were deemed really weak, you were chosen for Tranquility. The Chantry wasn't willing to take the chance. If you were deemed capable and had a shot, you went through the trial by fire.

Now they are willing to take the chance?

We assumed, based on what we knew, that the options are Tranquility or Harrowing, and most of what we knew came from Jowan.

No, we didn't assume based on the available info.  We were explicitly told that those were our only options, full stop, and Jowan was by no means our only source.

Given that there was literally no word on this prior to the World of Thedas, you can't see how it looks like yet another poorly handled retcon?  Even if everything you said was true, it really just doesn't make sense in light of the previous information given.  If weak mages were let go, there is no way that this kind of information would be the world's best kept secret.  Mages who were let go for being too weak would have made it into the rumor mill at the very least.

I have to agree with TEWR.  Your posited explanations do nothing at all to explain the lore we've been provided up to now.

This is why I hate most "new reveals" on ongoing stories.  Several titles in to a series (be it books or whatever) a new element is introduced that is revealed to have been a part of the world all along, even though it for all practical purposes didn't exist for the first five stories, or so.  Handled this way, it's too obviously a new idea by the writer and doesn't fit seamlessly into the established canon. 

Modifié par Silfren, 06 octobre 2013 - 04:21 .

[Sir JK]

Silfren wrote...
No, we didn't assume based on the available info.  We were explicitly told that those were our only options, full stop, and Jowan was by no means our only source.

Given that there was literally no word on this prior to the World of Thedas, you can't see how it looks like yet another poorly handled retcon?  Even if everything you said was true, it really just doesn't make sense in light of the previous information given.  If weak mages were let go, there is no way that this kind of information would be the world's best kept secret.  Mages who were let go for being too weak would have made it into the rumor mill at the very least.

I have to agree with TEWR.  Your posited explanations do nothing at all to explain the lore we've been provided up to now.

This is why I hate most "new reveals" on ongoing stories.  Several titles in to a series (be it books or whatever) a new element is introduced that is revealed to have been a part of the world all along, even though it for all practical purposes didn't exist for the first five stories, or so.  Handled this way, it's too obviously a new idea by the writer and doesn't fit seamlessly into the established canon. 

Apparently there's "magic" too weak to bother with

This one is suggesting that one can have magical ability beneath the notice of the templars

So it was not introduced with WoT, but earlier.

But even so... a setting where we know all the details from the get go is a setting where there's nothing to explore. Lore constantly expands, shifts and challanges preconceptions. And it should be allowed to do so. Both to allow the writer to make the best stories, but also to retain a sense of mystery. There's so much we've never gotten an indepths look at, so many mysteries unexplored and so much where we may not have been given the complete picture. Maybe it's inconventient at times, but a setting that does not evolve is a stiff, dull and sterile one.

I dare say however that in this issue in particular, it's well worth mentioning that there may be a difference between "weak of ability" and "weak of character/will". It's the former that's ignored by the chantry, the latter are tranquilized. It's not possible to fake it because the former are so weak they're barely mages in the first place, beyond their little tricks... they simply cannot do magic.

Modifié par Sir JK, 06 octobre 2013 - 04:39 .

[The Hierophant]

Sir JK that codex is stated to be cut content while it sounds like a fanciful tale as it's noted to be an...

—Excerpt from Templar Tomfoolery: Saucy Little Tales from the Barracks compiled by Senior Enchanter Wentworth Higginbottom

[DPSSOC]

Silfren wrote...
No, we didn't assume based on the available info.  We were explicitly told that those were our only options, full stop, and Jowan was by no means our only source.

We were lied to obviously, either knowingly by those aware of the policy or unknowingly by those who weren't.

Silfren wrote...
Given that there was literally no word on this prior to the World of Thedas, you can't see how it looks like yet another poorly handled retcon?  Even if everything you said was true, it really just doesn't make sense in light of the previous information given.  If weak mages were let go, there is no way that this kind of information would be the world's best kept secret.  Mages who were let go for being too weak would have made it into the rumor mill at the very least.

 
Considering the things we're expected to believe have been kept secret for centuries this one's actually easier for me to swallow.  The Harrowing is harder to believe because not only is it something that every mage has gone through but they keep these mages around and have them teach apprentices.  The setting expects us to believe that not one mentor has told one apprentice, or that one apprentice found out and said nothing, what the Harrowing involves, because Jowan asks about it and it's clear he doesn't have a clue.  I'd expect the fact that all mages are sent into the Fade unarmed and unprepared to make it into the rumour mill faster than the odd apprentice being snuck out and told to keep quiet.

Hell the Joining seems to kill an average of 1/3 of the people who go through it and we're expected to accept that this information hasn't gotten out.

Yes I can see how it looks like another poorly handled retcon, yes I can even say it probably is, but as far as poorly handled retcons go this one's not that bad.  Even in this series we've had a retcon that forced us to ignore the existence of a party member we had for an entire game.  This one is, by comparison, easy to work around; it's kept secret, it's not a common practice, and we've never been in a position to be told about it.  Really all we're forced to accept with this addition is that the people of Thedas truly are the least inquisitive people in all universes, and we've had to accept that since Game 1, Act 1.

[Patchwork]

We saw the apprentices being trained in the library so I doubt a lack of ability is a secret. If someone disappears the mages probably assume the templars killed them.

I'm having trouble accepting this retcon but okay suppose this barely a mage lives most of their life as the runt of the apprentice litter and somehow convinces the KC they've resisted the allure of blood magic adjusting to the outside is not going to be easy. They're ill equipped to deal with world and would they even be allowed to return to their families?

I could see this as something a sympathetic templar might do but not a Chantry sanctioned action. It just doesn't fit with what we know.

[Silfren]

DPSSOC wrote...

Silfren wrote...
No, we didn't assume based on the available info.  We were explicitly told that those were our only options, full stop, and Jowan was by no means our only source.

We were lied to obviously, either knowingly by those aware of the policy or unknowingly by those who weren't.

Silfren wrote...
Given that there was literally no word on this prior to the World of Thedas, you can't see how it looks like yet another poorly handled retcon?  Even if everything you said was true, it really just doesn't make sense in light of the previous information given.  If weak mages were let go, there is no way that this kind of information would be the world's best kept secret.  Mages who were let go for being too weak would have made it into the rumor mill at the very least.

 
Considering the things we're expected to believe have been kept secret for centuries this one's actually easier for me to swallow.  The Harrowing is harder to believe because not only is it something that every mage has gone through but they keep these mages around and have them teach apprentices.  The setting expects us to believe that not one mentor has told one apprentice, or that one apprentice found out and said nothing, what the Harrowing involves, because Jowan asks about it and it's clear he doesn't have a clue.  I'd expect the fact that all mages are sent into the Fade unarmed and unprepared to make it into the rumour mill faster than the odd apprentice being snuck out and told to keep quiet.

Hell the Joining seems to kill an average of 1/3 of the people who go through it and we're expected to accept that this information hasn't gotten out.

I don't disagree with you.  I've always found it impossible to swallow.  Not everyone would keep that a secret.  Short of putting some kind of magical silencer on a person, it literally would be impossible.

Yes I can see how it looks like another poorly handled retcon, yes I can even say it probably is, but as far as poorly handled retcons go this one's not that bad.  Even in this series we've had a retcon that forced us to ignore the existence of a party member we had for an entire game.  This one is, by comparison, easy to work around; it's kept secret, it's not a common practice, and we've never been in a position to be told about it.  Really all we're forced to accept with this addition is that the people of Thedas truly are the least inquisitive people in all universes, and we've had to accept that since Game 1, Act 1.

For me, it's not a question of how bad a retcon is...I'm not against retcons necessarily, but there's right and wrong ways to handle them, and beyond that, they really need to be kept to a minimum.  With DA, they seem to just keep piling up.  

Modifié par Silfren, 07 octobre 2013 - 05:35 .

[Silfren]

Sir JK wrote...

Silfren wrote...
No, we didn't assume based on the available info.  We were explicitly told that those were our only options, full stop, and Jowan was by no means our only source.

Given that there was literally no word on this prior to the World of Thedas, you can't see how it looks like yet another poorly handled retcon?  Even if everything you said was true, it really just doesn't make sense in light of the previous information given.  If weak mages were let go, there is no way that this kind of information would be the world's best kept secret.  Mages who were let go for being too weak would have made it into the rumor mill at the very least.

I have to agree with TEWR.  Your posited explanations do nothing at all to explain the lore we've been provided up to now.

This is why I hate most "new reveals" on ongoing stories.  Several titles in to a series (be it books or whatever) a new element is introduced that is revealed to have been a part of the world all along, even though it for all practical purposes didn't exist for the first five stories, or so.  Handled this way, it's too obviously a new idea by the writer and doesn't fit seamlessly into the established canon. 

Apparently there's "magic" too weak to bother with

This one is suggesting that one can have magical ability beneath the notice of the templars

So it was not introduced with WoT, but earlier.

But even so... a setting where we know all the details from the get go is a setting where there's nothing to explore. Lore constantly expands, shifts and challanges preconceptions. And it should be allowed to do so. Both to allow the writer to make the best stories, but also to retain a sense of mystery. There's so much we've never gotten an indepths look at, so many mysteries unexplored and so much where we may not have been given the complete picture. Maybe it's inconventient at times, but a setting that does not evolve is a stiff, dull and sterile one.

And yet I've read enough mulit-volume stories to know that it is possible to introduce new elements in a way that does NOT come across as an obvious New Idea that the writer either decided must be introduced, or had to introduce in order to prevent the plot from being stonewalled.

If we're using the word evolve to refer to the introduction of new elements that are shoehorned into a setting in which they previously did not exist, I find the idea laughable that without this ability to evolve, a story would just be stiff, dull, and sterile.  What makes a story sterile and dull rather than a captivating page-turner is a writer's ability to tell an interesting story...or lack thereof. 

Sometimes it's a straight up deux ex machina, other times it's just something that by rights should have been part of the world to begin with.

Having said that, let me clarify that I'm not opposed to the introduction of new ideas per se, just the introduction of new ideas that are, as I said, shoehorned in in the midst of a series and treated as if they've been there all along.  As in, for four or five books we've had a given lore-set that we've been compelled to accept as the way the world works, and then suddenly there's a scene that goes all "Oh by the way, even though there's been absolutely no mention of this previously, here's this New Thing that has totally been a part of the world all along, even though nobody ever, ever so much as mentioned it."  All too often it's so ineptly handled that it very much comes across as "Hi!  Totally new idea here that my creator just came up with!"  Whether it's genuinely just a great new idea, or something that was created out of necessity because the plot got away from the creator, some writers can insert this new element into their universe and have it fall into place properly, but many just...don't.

Modifié par Silfren, 06 octobre 2013 - 08:39 .

[Sir JK]

Silfren wrote...

And yet I've read enough mulit-volume stories to know that it is possible to introduce new elements in a way that does NOT come across as an obvious New Idea that the writer either decided must be introduced, or had to introduce in order to prevent the plot from being stonewalled.

If we're using the word evolve to refer to the introduction of new elements that are shoehorned into a setting in which they previously did not exist, I find the idea laughable that without this ability to evolve, a story would just be stiff, dull, and sterile.  What makes a story sterile and dull rather than a captivating page-turner is a writer's ability to tell an interesting story...or lack thereof. 

Sometimes it's a straight up deux ex machina, other times it's just
something that by rights should have been part of the world to begin
with.

Having said that, let me clarify that I'm not opposed to the introduction of new ideas per se, just the introduction of new ideas that are, as I said, shoehorned in in the midst of a series and treated as if they've been there all along.  As in, for four or five books we've had a given lore-set that we've been compelled to accept as the way the world works, and then suddenly there's a scene that goes all "Oh by the way, even though there's been absolutely no mention of this previously, here's this New Thing that has totally been a part of the world all along, even though nobody ever, ever so much as mentioned it."  All too often it's so ineptly handled that it very much comes across as "Hi!  Totally new idea here that my creator just came up with!"  Whether it's genuinely just a great new idea, or something that was created out of necessity because the plot got away from the creator, some writers can insert this new element into their universe and have it fall into place properly, but many just...don't.

I largely agree with this, in the sense that the problem is not really adding new elements or such but rather the manner in which you do it. If you add new things to existing topics in a good way, noone bats an eyelash (and sometimes people cheer). If you do it haphazardly a lot of people does.

I'm merely objecting to the notion that everything should be set in stone from the get go and/or that there's no room to expand even in subjects we've dealt with extensively. It should be done, but done so in a fun and engaging way.

[Silfren]

Sir JK wrote...

Silfren wrote...

And yet I've read enough mulit-volume stories to know that it is possible to introduce new elements in a way that does NOT come across as an obvious New Idea that the writer either decided must be introduced, or had to introduce in order to prevent the plot from being stonewalled.

If we're using the word evolve to refer to the introduction of new elements that are shoehorned into a setting in which they previously did not exist, I find the idea laughable that without this ability to evolve, a story would just be stiff, dull, and sterile.  What makes a story sterile and dull rather than a captivating page-turner is a writer's ability to tell an interesting story...or lack thereof. 

Sometimes it's a straight up deux ex machina, other times it's just something that by rights should have been part of the world to begin with.

Having said that, let me clarify that I'm not opposed to the introduction of new ideas per se, just the introduction of new ideas that are, as I said, shoehorned in in the midst of a series and treated as if they've been there all along.  As in, for four or five books we've had a given lore-set that we've been compelled to accept as the way the world works, and then suddenly there's a scene that goes all "Oh by the way, even though there's been absolutely no mention of this previously, here's this New Thing that has totally been a part of the world all along, even though nobody ever, ever so much as mentioned it."  All too often it's so ineptly handled that it very much comes across as "Hi!  Totally new idea here that my creator just came up with!"  Whether it's genuinely just a great new idea, or something that was created out of necessity because the plot got away from the creator, some writers can insert this new element into their universe and have it fall into place properly, but many just...don't.

I largely agree with this, in the sense that the problem is not really adding new elements or such but rather the manner in which you do it. If you add new things to existing topics in a good way, noone bats an eyelash (and sometimes people cheer). If you do it haphazardly a lot of people does.

I'm merely objecting to the notion that everything should be set in stone from the get go and/or that there's no room to expand even in subjects we've dealt with extensively. It should be done, but done so in a fun and engaging way.

I don't mean that everything should be set in stone, but I'm not really sure we're talking about the same things, since I've read plenty of novels where new elements that contradict pre-existing lore DON'T enter into the story and there's nothing dull or sterile about it. 

[dragonflight288]

If it was me who did the retconning, I'd probably have something like this

The Inquisitor is talking to Cullen and Cullen says "There are mages who barely have access to their powers, and we can determine they're too weak to be a danger. It was considered better for the Circle System itself, if we removed them from the circle, and told no one what became of them. We can't have untrained mages pretending to be weak so as to escape, and cause havoc later."

Then the Inquisitor would ask, "But what became of those mages? They never returned to their families."

Cullen would go, "They've been marked as mages. Many of their families want nothing to do with them anymore. No, they're taken to a Chantry and raised with other orphans."

Or something like that. That way, it explains why we would never have heard of it, and why we would never have met those mages..

[TEWR]

Silfren wrote...

And yet I've read enough mulit-volume stories to know that it is possible to introduce new elements in a way that does NOT come across as an obvious New Idea that the writer either decided must be introduced, or had to introduce in order to prevent the plot from being stonewalled.

Kingdom Hearts is great at introducing new concepts in a great way, because the previous games have subtle moments that imply new bits of lore. As of yet, there hasn't been any sort of new revelation in the series that doesn't jive with the lore. Everything fits.

[Silfren]

dragonflight288 wrote...

If it was me who did the retconning, I'd probably have something like this

The Inquisitor is talking to Cullen and Cullen says "There are mages who barely have access to their powers, and we can determine they're too weak to be a danger. It was considered better for the Circle System itself, if we removed them from the circle, and told no one what became of them. We can't have untrained mages pretending to be weak so as to escape, and cause havoc later."

Then the Inquisitor would ask, "But what became of those mages? They never returned to their families."

Cullen would go, "They've been marked as mages. Many of their families want nothing to do with them anymore. No, they're taken to a Chantry and raised with other orphans."

Or something like that. That way, it explains why we would never have heard of it, and why we would never have met those mages..

Well no, it doesn't explain that bit.  There's no way around it: if mages were let go from the Circle, that kind of news WOULD make it out.  People talk, whether to gossip or whatever.  It's preposterous to think it's plausible that each individual mage released from the Circle would never, ever mention this to anyone, or even that each and every one of them would never have contact with their families again.  Rare or not, there are mages whose families don't hate them. 

[dragonflight288]

Silfren wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

If it was me who did the retconning, I'd probably have something like this

The Inquisitor is talking to Cullen and Cullen says "There are mages who barely have access to their powers, and we can determine they're too weak to be a danger. It was considered better for the Circle System itself, if we removed them from the circle, and told no one what became of them. We can't have untrained mages pretending to be weak so as to escape, and cause havoc later."

Then the Inquisitor would ask, "But what became of those mages? They never returned to their families."

Cullen would go, "They've been marked as mages. Many of their families want nothing to do with them anymore. No, they're taken to a Chantry and raised with other orphans."

Or something like that. That way, it explains why we would never have heard of it, and why we would never have met those mages..

Well no, it doesn't explain that bit.  There's no way around it: if mages were let go from the Circle, that kind of news WOULD make it out.  People talk, whether to gossip or whatever.  It's preposterous to think it's plausible that each individual mage released from the Circle would never, ever mention this to anyone, or even that each and every one of them would never have contact with their families again.  Rare or not, there are mages whose families don't hate them. 

Okay. Plausible rumors then. It's still better than trying to retcon the lore in a book that not everyone has read.