2497 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

Silfren wrote...
I don't disagree with you.  I've always found it impossible to swallow.  Not everyone would keep that a secret.  Short of putting some kind of magical silencer on a person, it literally would be impossible.

Well, all amges are in the Tower and watched.
Either a mage keeps silent becasue he realises the importance of the Harrowing, or he keeps silent because he knows his life is forefit if he talks.

The "secrets can't be kept" goes both ways.

And why didn't you hear about it untill know?
Becaue noboy told you or though it was important enough.
Simple.

As far as lore additoons go, this one is OK. It doesn't really contradict anything said before, and there are no reasons a PC would know about it anyway.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 07 octobre 2013 - 07:09 .

[Fredward]

Wait, wha...? Templars let weak mages go now? How weak? How do they know who's weak? Can weak mages not be possessed?

What is this.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The weakest of mages poses such a little threat, even the threat of demon possession is diminished, that the Chantry doesn't think it neccesary to confine them to the Circles. They do however remain watchful of these individuals, since the threat of possession is always present, even if highly unlikely.

[dragonflight288]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Wait, wha...? Templars let weak mages go now? How weak? How do they know who's weak? Can weak mages not be possessed?

What is this.

Apparently. World of Thedas, a book which many fan of the games have not read, is tryin to retcon how templars treat weak mages, completely ignoring established lore and the fact that no one in the games have ever once been able to talk about how they measure strength and weakness in magical capacity.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Wait, wha...? Templars let weak mages go now? How weak? How do they know who's weak? Can weak mages not be possessed?

What is this.

Apparently. World of Thedas, a book which many fan of the games have not read, is tryin to retcon how templars treat weak mages, completely ignoring established lore and the fact that no one in the games have ever once been able to talk about how they measure strength and weakness in magical capacity.

You are going by the assumption that what the games portray was supposed to be a whole and absolute truth. You would be incorrect. This is not a "retcon" since it doesn't contradict any previously established lore, as we have pointed out several times by now.

[Medhia Nox]

Every contradiction ADDS to the lore of the world.

Just because a bit of information doesn't support your specific view of how things work in Thedas - doesn't mean it some ill thought out retcon.

It's not a "retcon" - it's the simply fact that everyone on these forums is too ill informed to state, as fact, what the reality of Thedas is like. Doesn't stop people from stating it - and believing it - but it doesn't make it any more true.

[Reznore57]

I thought "weak " mage were hedge mage , a mage with a stupid power like I don't know...a guy whose only power is to conjure apples?
I'm not even sure those mages have a full link to the fade , maybe they can't make them tranquil and just let them go?

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Wait, wha...? Templars let weak mages go now? How weak? How do they know who's weak? Can weak mages not be possessed?

What is this.

Apparently. World of Thedas, a book which many fan of the games have not read, is tryin to retcon how templars treat weak mages, completely ignoring established lore and the fact that no one in the games have ever once been able to talk about how they measure strength and weakness in magical capacity.

You are going by the assumption that what the games portray was supposed to be a whole and absolute truth. You would be incorrect. This is not a "retcon" since it doesn't contradict any previously established lore, as we have pointed out several times by now.

Jowan: You take the Right of Tranquility, the Harrowing, or you die.

The templars in both games never say otherwise, and neither do any of the mages.

[dragonflight288]

Reznore57 wrote...

I thought "weak " mage were hedge mage , a mage with a stupid power like I don't know...a guy whose only power is to conjure apples?
I'm not even sure those mages have a full link to the fade , maybe they can't make them tranquil and just let them go?

A Hedge Mage is a mage who grew up outside the Chantry's influence, like a Chasind Shaman.

[Taleroth]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Every contradiction ADDS to the lore of the world.

Just because a bit of information doesn't support your specific view of how things work in Thedas - doesn't mean it some ill thought out retcon.

It's not a "retcon" - it's the simply fact that everyone on these forums is too ill informed to state, as fact, what the reality of Thedas is like. Doesn't stop people from stating it - and believing it - but it doesn't make it any more true.

 
Anything that alters the view of past events is a retcon. Retcons are not limited to unresolveable contradictions. That's not even a reasonable understanding of the term. It's fiction, you can resolve anything.

All a retcon means is that change is nonlinear. You can add information to past events, you can take away information from past events. You can rewrite past events wholesale. You can have time machines go back and kill hitler. All of them are forms of retcon.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Wait, wha...? Templars let weak mages go now? How weak? How do they know who's weak? Can weak mages not be possessed?

What is this.

Apparently. World of Thedas, a book which many fan of the games have not read, is tryin to retcon how templars treat weak mages, completely ignoring established lore and the fact that no one in the games have ever once been able to talk about how they measure strength and weakness in magical capacity.

You are going by the assumption that what the games portray was supposed to be a whole and absolute truth. You would be incorrect. This is not a "retcon" since it doesn't contradict any previously established lore, as we have pointed out several times by now.

Jowan: You take the Right of Tranquility, the Harrowing, or you die.

The templars in both games never say otherwise, and neither do any of the mages.

And? How exactly is this absolute truth of the gospel you try to spew? Jowan is a weak and pathetic mage yes, but he is not weak enough to be let go. Furthermore apprentices doesn't even know what the Harrowing entices, so why do you think they know ALL of the alternatives? (mind you that in the case of Jowan, the only alternative to the Harrowing, was indeed death or tranquility). And why on earth would the Templars advertise to the Circle mages, that they actively let some mages live outside the Circle?

In short, nothing of what you state, does in any way, shape, or form exclude the new lore. The new lore (which isn't really new, since we already knew the Chantry let the dowsers go) doesn't contradict the old lore, it merely adds to it. Consequentially it adds something you don't like, and you struggle agaisnt it.

Taleroth wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

Every contradiction ADDS to the lore of the world. 

Just because a bit of information doesn't support your specific view of how things work in Thedas - doesn't mean it some ill thought out retcon. 

It's not a "retcon" - it's the simply fact that everyone on these forums is too ill informed to state, as fact, what the reality of Thedas is like. Doesn't stop people from stating it - and believing it - but it doesn't make it any more true.

 
Anything that alters the view of past events is a retcon. Retcons are not limited to unresolveable contradictions. That's not even a reasonable understanding of the term. It's fiction, you can resolve anything.

All a retcon means is that change is nonlinear. You can add information to past events, you can take away information from past events. You can rewrite past events wholesale. You can have time machines go back and kill hitler. All of them are forms of retcon.

That is simply not correct. If what you said was true, then a plot twist would be considered a retcon.

A retcon is when you fundamentally change the lore. For instance, if David Gaider said that Anders actually never blew up the Chantry in Kirkwall, and the Mage rebillion in Kirkwall never ahppened. This would directly change established lore, and thus be a retcon.

What we are seeing in this case with the weak mages, is an elaboration on the established lore. Not a retcon.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 07 octobre 2013 - 04:42 .

[leaguer of one]

Taleroth wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

Every contradiction ADDS to the lore of the world.

Just because a bit of information doesn't support your specific view of how things work in Thedas - doesn't mean it some ill thought out retcon.

It's not a "retcon" - it's the simply fact that everyone on these forums is too ill informed to state, as fact, what the reality of Thedas is like. Doesn't stop people from stating it - and believing it - but it doesn't make it any more true.

 
Anything that alters the view of past events is a retcon. Retcons are not limited to unresolveable contradictions. That's not even a reasonable understanding of the term. It's fiction, you can resolve anything.

All a retcon means is that change is nonlinear. You can add information to past events, you can take away information from past events. You can rewrite past events wholesale. You can have time machines go back and kill hitler. All of them are forms of retcon.

That's wrong.
 A retcon is an unexplaine and non-acknowledges change of previous events. Example: Super man use to be married to Losis Lane. Now they are not married and doing even acknowledge that fact that they were.
It's a change that lake the reconsion to it in the plot.

[Taleroth]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That is simply not correct. If what you said was true, then a plot twist would be considered a retcon.

A retcon is when you fundamentally change the lore. For instance, if David Gaider said that Anders actually never blew up the Chantry in Kirkwall, and the Mage rebillion in Kirkwall never ahppened. This would directly change established lore, and thus be a retcon.

What we are seeing in this case with the weak mages, is an elaboration on the established lore. Not a retcon.

Retcons tend to be relegated to later installments in a work, not simply later in the same work, but there's nothing in the definition that makes that a critical characteristic.

People tend to use "retcon" to refer to only retcons they don't like. And that's why plot twists are usually not considered as such.

Wikipedia.

Retroactive continuity[/b], or retcon[/b] for short, is the alteration of previously established facts in the continuity of a fictional work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retroactive_continuity

Check out the full entry for details on additions that don't change the facts.

Dictionary.com

 The common situation in pulp fiction (esp. comics or soap operas) where a new story `reveals' things about events in previous stories, usually leaving the `facts' the same (thus preserving continuity) while completely changing their interpretation.

Note that unlike your example, they specifically reference keeping facts the same.

http://dictionary.re...owse/retcon?s=t

TV Tropes

Reframing past events to serve a current plot need. The ideal retcon clarifies a question alluded to without adding excessive new questions. In its most basic form, this is any plot point that was not intended from the beginning. The most preferred use is where it contradicts nothing, even though it was changed later on.

http://tvtropes.org/...php/Main/Retcon

Modifié par Taleroth, 07 octobre 2013 - 05:02 .

[Reznore57]

dragonflight288 wrote...

A Hedge Mage is a mage who grew up outside the Chantry's influence, like a Chasind Shaman.

I think it's a bit more than just that.
If a chasind shaman use spells taught by the Circle , like basic healing spells ...he's just a regular apostate.

I think in Asunder , at first Rhys think that Cole is a hedge mage who can only turn invisible ...
From what I gather hedge mage is a term for mage who have very strange and (often) uncontrolled power , they may not even be able to learn any spell from a basic school like fire spells etc...

[Medhia Nox]

The problem is not in the lore.

The problem is in the customer base believing they have a mastery of the lore.

It doesn't take a lot of common sense to realize that you're an outside observer of the game world. Not the Maker. If you're presented with two opposing views - then obviously neither of them were the whole truth.

It's the fanatics on these forums that decide that Templars are all rapists who mistreat mages... and mages are all blood mage abominations... and Qunari are all... etc. etc.

If the game world presents you with an opposition to your own personal view - it is not a retcon.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 07 octobre 2013 - 05:15 .

[Silfren]

Reznore57 wrote...

I thought "weak " mage were hedge mage , a mage with a stupid power like I don't know...a guy whose only power is to conjure apples?
I'm not even sure those mages have a full link to the fade , maybe they can't make them tranquil and just let them go?

The only people who don't have a link to the Fade are dwarves and the Tranquil.  Being connected to the Fade is a separate thing from being a mage. 

Assuming this isn't retconned later.  Anyway, here's the codex about hedge mages. 

"There are two main types of apostates: hedge mages and general apostates, who were never part of the Circle, and rogue mages, who have fled from the Circle. The Templar Order is charged with finding apostates and either capturing or killing them. Maleficarum are a branch of apostate mages considered most dangerous."
...

"Hedge mages are untrained magic-users who wield powers developed outside of conventional teaching.[3] Often their magic may be harmless enough that they are not pursued by the Chantry. More specifically hedge magic, known by its more technical name "arcanist derangement"[4] among mages and scholars, is a form of magical expression different than that of typical mages. The term was coined by Magister Allineas at the height of the Towers Age. The magister posited that magical talent is like a flowing river. When expressed through a mage, it finds a proper outlet through spellcraft. Left to its own devices it flows unexpectedly, and thus hedge mages are created. Prior to the creation of the Circles, such magical talent expressed itself often through ancient traditions and rituals. Those mages possessed power no Circle spell could replicate and their unpredictable ability was deemed a threat."

So basically, no, it isn't that being a hedge mage means your native magical ability is weak or expresses in a bizarre way.  It's that hedge mages, being trained outside the Circle, learn to use magic altogether differently than the way it is taught within the Circle.  Ultimately, it's the Thedosian equivalent of the Circle mages being proper, upstanding citizens, while those icky hedge mages are "trailer trash."

ETA: the most interesting thing to me here is that the definition for hedge mages was coined by a Magister, and that even Tevinters are basically jealous of magic that didn't come from one of their Circles.  I very much would like to see one of these non-Circle trained mages.  It'd be cool to have a mage companion whose entire magical skillset was unique to that character.  I'd hoped we would see something like this in a Rivaini mage. 

Modifié par Silfren, 07 octobre 2013 - 06:10 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

I think even the Dwarves have the same connection to the Fade, they are just "deafened" to it. At least I recall something along those lines. It was basically used to explain why Dwarves began to dream when they had lived topside for a while.

[Heimdall]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I think even the Dwarves have the same connection to the Fade, they are just "deafened" to it. At least I recall something along those lines. It was basically used to explain why Dwarves began to dream when they had lived topside for a while.

They do?

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I think even the Dwarves have the same connection to the Fade, they are just "deafened" to it. At least I recall something along those lines. It was basically used to explain why Dwarves began to dream when they had lived topside for a while.

Good point. Perhaps all the lyrium exposure defeans them?

[Heimdall]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I think even the Dwarves have the same connection to the Fade, they are just "deafened" to it. At least I recall something along those lines. It was basically used to explain why Dwarves began to dream when they had lived topside for a while.

Good point. Perhaps all the lyrium exposure defeans them?

Would the reverse then deafen a normal person to the Fade?  (I imagine Mages' connections are too strong)

[Hellion Rex]

Lord Aesir wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I think even the Dwarves have the same connection to the Fade, they are just "deafened" to it. At least I recall something along those lines. It was basically used to explain why Dwarves began to dream when they had lived topside for a while.

Good point. Perhaps all the lyrium exposure defeans them?

Would the reverse then deafen a normal person to the Fade?  (I imagine Mages' connections are too strong)

Well....a lyrium brand is used to deafen a mage to the Fade (Tranquility)...

[EmperorSahlertz]

Well, I'd imagine that this "deafening" happened over generations. So it would take a long time for humans to achieve it, several generations probably. But I guess it is possible in theory.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well, I'd imagine that this "deafening" happened over generations. So it would take a long time for humans to achieve it, several generations probably. But I guess it is possible in theory.

True. I would think that such a "deafness" would only happen due to spending so long underground.

Modifié par eluvianix, 07 octobre 2013 - 06:04 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

And exposure to lyrium probably. After all, Dwarves also have their innate resistance to Lyrium. I don't know wether they retain that after living on the surface for too long though. I'd imagine that these two things are also connected.
I mean if you are "immune" to the influences of the Fade, then you are probaly also "immune" to the Fade made manifest in the form of Lyrium (they aren't immune but just highly resistant).

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 07 octobre 2013 - 06:08 .

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And exposure to lyrium probably. After all, Dwarves also have their innate resistance to Lyrium. I don't know wether they retain that after living on the surface for too long though. I'd imagine that these two things are also connected.
I mean if you are "immune" to the influences of the Fade, then you are probaly also "immune" to the Fade made manifest in the form of Lyrium (they aren't immune but just highly resistant).

No, I think it's said that surface dwarves also lose their lyrium resistance.  I'm guessing it's where the dwarven concept of losing your Stone sense comes from.