2497 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

Hmm probably. But being able to lose this "Stone Sense" does beg the question of which is the "natural state" for a Dwarf. And if the one where they don't have the resistance is the natural state, and actually that the ancient Dwarves might have had Mages amongst their numbers.

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Hmm probably. But being able to lose this "Stone Sense" does beg the question of which is the "natural state" for a Dwarf. And if the one where they don't have the resistance is the natural state, and actually that the ancient Dwarves might have had Mages amongst their numbers.

I think the game hints at that pretty strongly, actually.  The dwarven alliance with Tevinter, the implication that the dwarves themselves may have something to do with the darkspawn, some kind of possible connection with the elves or Arlathan, Sandal's prophecy....

[WardenWade]

Medhia Nox wrote...

The problem is not in the lore.

The problem is in the customer base believing they have a mastery of the lore.

It doesn't take a lot of common sense to realize that you're an outside observer of the game world. Not the Maker. If you're presented with two opposing views - then obviously neither of them were the whole truth.

It's the fanatics on these forums that decide that Templars are all rapists who mistreat mages... and mages are all blood mage abominations... and Qunari are all... etc. etc.

If the game world presents you with an opposition to your own personal view - it is not a retcon.

This isn’t precisely relevant to this topic, but this codex entry may possibly be useful as well, as regards different views of Templars and mages. The Templar referenced in this codex entry merely oversees the Ansburg laundry room and appears to get along respectfully with the first enchanter, who in turn feels no unease about disagreeing with the templars there.

EDIT: It's a codex entry I've always liked, anyway, and that always seemed to me to show a healthy relationship between mages and templars/non-mages.

Modifié par WardenWade, 08 octobre 2013 - 12:11 .

[Medhia Nox]

@WardenWade: Thank you for that Codex entry. That Codex entry not only refutes relations of Templars and Mages... but a mage states clearly that magic is not of the natural world and therefor magic in Dragon Age is not a "tool of the natural world".

[Silfren]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@WardenWade: Thank you for that Codex entry. That Codex entry not only refutes relations of Templars and Mages... but a mage states clearly that magic is not of the natural world and therefor magic in Dragon Age is not a "tool of the natural world".

Hold yer horses thar!  That codex is the opinion of one mage, and given the content, it's hardly to be taken seriously.

That said, it is rather unrelated to the question of this new bit of lore being retcon.  I for one resent the idea that those of us objecting to it do so because we believe ourselves masters of the lore. 

This is NOT a new revelation that merely adds to our understanding or changes our understanding of existing lore.  It directly refutes existing lore, and not in the sense that the previous lore was just a misunderstanding or somesuch. 

It's just plain ol' bad writing, and we ARE allowed to cry foul over it.

Modifié par Silfren, 07 octobre 2013 - 08:17 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Silfren: Wow, that was quicker than I even expected.

You're allowed to complain all you want. I can't stop you and the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Look at the added races.

That being said - I do not believe mages have always been as horribly maligned as the people I consider fanatics do. I was never given that impression - so, more information in that aspect does not distort my headcanon.

I cannot say what it does to yours, but you're free to.

[EmperorSahlertz]

And which previosuly established lore, which gave us absolute knowledge of the Circles and their workings exactly is it, that it contradicts?

[Fredward]

Reznore57 wrote...
I thought "weak " mage were hedge mage , a mage with a stupid power like I don't know...a guy whose only power is to conjure apples?
I'm not even sure those mages have a full link to the fade , maybe they can't make them tranquil and just let them go?

See, this would make more sense. The impression I got from "hedge mage" in Asunder was that they're magical potential manifested in a weird, oddly specific way. Now if the lore said that these mages either can't be possessed or there has just never been a reported case of a hedge mage (distinct from an apostate in this case, an apostate using magic "normally" just outside a Circle) being possessed then it would make semi-sense for the templars to let them go. If the Chantry says mages are locked up primarily because they can use blood magic and can be possessed and a hedge mage is inherently incapable of doing these things... This wouldn't be a retcon just... a late addition.

If this is the case using the word "weak" was a poor choice. Massive confusion has been caused! Flail! Panic! Weep! Weak mage implies can barely light a candle but uses magic conventionally, enters the Fade, attracts demons. Hedge mage might mean fundamentally closing yourself off from these avenues in some way. And introducing a strength scale to magic use now is a bit odd. I've never gotten the Wheel of Time potential sensing vibe from DA. But whatever. Maybe weak mages are less of a beacon? I don't know man. Seems weird. Is this strength something you're born with or is it just like your mana bar getting bigger?

Someone shine the Writer Signal. Clarification is required on this utterly pertinent issue.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Reznore57 wrote...
I thought "weak " mage were hedge mage , a mage with a stupid power like I don't know...a guy whose only power is to conjure apples?
I'm not even sure those mages have a full link to the fade , maybe they can't make them tranquil and just let them go?

See, this would make more sense. The impression I got from "hedge mage" in Asunder was that they're magical potential manifested in a weird, oddly specific way. Now if the lore said that these mages either can't be possessed or there has just never been a reported case of a hedge mage (distinct from an apostate in this case, an apostate using magic "normally" just outside a Circle) being possessed then it would make semi-sense for the templars to let them go. If the Chantry says mages are locked up primarily because they can use blood magic and can be possessed and a hedge mage is inherently incapable of doing these things... This wouldn't be a retcon just... a late addition.

Why do you think they can't be possessed? Also, hedge mages seem to go insane due to the unnatural way their powers work.

Someone shine the Writer Signal. Clarification is required on this utterly pertinent issue. 

That would be nice, yes.

[Silfren]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Silfren: Wow, that was quicker than I even expected.

You're allowed to complain all you want. I can't stop you and the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Look at the added races.

That being said - I do not believe mages have always been as horribly maligned as the people I consider fanatics do. I was never given that impression - so, more information in that aspect does not distort my headcanon.

I cannot say what it does to yours, but you're free to.

Oddly enough the Devs themselves have clarified a few points on the question of mages being maligned.  For instance, even though most of us, I wager, wouldn't find it surprising that Isolde was desperately determined to protect her son and keep him with her, since parents do tend to love their children and those who hate them are the exceptions, not the rule...Gaider, I'm made to understand, insists that Isolde's love for her son despite his being a mage is the exception, an exceedingly rare one, due to near universal contempt for mages. 

Personally I don't see it, because there are enough examples of individual characters not outright loathing mages to call that into question.  But there it is, it does rather dispute your headcanon.  The problem is, that sort of thing needs to be represented within the lore, not as an external WoD declaration, if we're expected to take it seriously as part of the canon universe.  And certainly not as a retcon because the Devs think that they need to encourage a new understanding of the conflict, as was done in the representation of mages in DA2.

Either way, this is not about headcanon, whether mine or anyone else's.  I don't think that the games show mages as universally maligned either--which is not to say I think the Circles are reasonable or that the Chantry practice is acceptable--but this doesn't actually have anything to do with the idea that weak mages are let go from the Circle. You seem to be writing from the assumption that that is my objection to this idea: that I think the games present mages as hated by everyone and so the idea that weak mages are let go doesn't make sense in that regard.  If so, let me disabuse you of that notion.  It's not why I dislike the retcon at all.

Modifié par Silfren, 07 octobre 2013 - 08:50 .

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And which previosuly established lore, which gave us absolute knowledge of the Circles and their workings exactly is it, that it contradicts?

There are several instances of established Lore. Jowan's quote that I mentioned earlier. There's also a few reputable codex entries, none of which even come close to implying that there's another option beyond the three established ones. Harrowing, Tranquility, or Death.

Coden Entry: Tranquility


Orana was brought to the Circle of Magi in Kirkwall
at the age of five. Her mentors had high hopes for the child, seeing
her talent for magic. Unfortunately, the poor child was plagued by
nightmares that only worsened after her move to the Gallows.
Orana became afraid of falling asleep. She would lie stiffly in
bed, her eyes wide open. Without sleep, she grew thin and wan, and her
studies began to suffer.
Orana began to experience waking dreams. Shadows flitted in corners, and she swore she heard voices calling her name. She knew demons could take advantage of her vulnerable state, and at the tender age of eleven, she requested to be made Tranquil. The first enchanter complied.
With her connection to the Fade
severed, Orana was again able to sleep. Her health returned, and she
was at peace with her decision. She continued her education at the
Circle and excelled in enchanting and runecrafting.
Orana saw the Rite of Tranquility as a gift, although many mocked
her for this view. Later in life, she created an amulet to remind her
of the Rite. She named it Tranquility. The Tranquility Amulet soothes
the mind and imparts a general sense of well-being to its wearer.



Codex Entry: Journal of the Tranquil


Some laugh at me. I no longer mind.
Once upon a time, I studied as they did. I learned under the
tutelage of an enchanter and attempted to master the art of bending
magic to my will, and while I did well enough, I know that I struggled. I
saw the way the enchanter looked at me, the sidelong glances of worry
and disappointment. While other apprentices were conjuring fire, I could
barely light a candle.
I was frightened of magic. When I was a boy, my grandmother regaled me with tales of the terrible Flemeth, the Witch of the Wilds. She told me of the magisters and how their evil magic infected the world with the darkspawn. She told me of demons,
and how they were drawn to the dreams of those who possessed magic like
moths to a flame. She told me all these things because, she said, the
talent ran in our family's blood.
And so it ran in mine. All my young life I had dreaded the thought, prayed to the Maker that I was not so cursed, but I knew otherwise. Deep in my heart, I knew. When the templars came to our home, I knew.
The mages' tower was terrifying, full of secrets and danger. The templars glared at me as if I could spring full into an abomination
before their very eyes. My enchanter patiently attempted to teach me to
marshal my willpower, my only defense should a demon attempt to enslave
me, but it was no use. How many nights did I cry myself to sleep in
that dark and lonely place?
Then my Harrowing came at last, my final test. Face a demon, they said, or submit to the Rite of Tranquility. They would sever my connection to the Fade,
and thus I would never dream and no demon could ever touch me--but I
would also be unable to do magic, and I would never feel an emotion ever
again. Facing the demon was certain death, so my choice was easy.
It was not so painful.
Now I serve in other ways. We Tranquil manage the archives. We
run the tower, purchase the supplies and maintain the accounts. Our
condition also allows us to use the magical element lyrium without ill
effect, and thus we are the ones who enchant the magical items. We are
the merchants who sell these items to those the Circle permits, and the coin from those sales provides the Circle's wealth.
Thus, we Tranquil are vital. The young and old may stare at me,
ill at ease, but they would be worse off without me. They may think me a
failure, but there is no horror for me now. I feel no fear of what I
am. The shadows are merely shadows, and I am content.
--Eddin the Meek, Tranquil of the Circle of Magi of Starkhaven, the Free Marches.
Codex Entry: The Tranquil


If the Warden is a mage...
Although apprentices do not know the nature of the Harrowing, all of them understand its consequences: They either pass and become full mages,
or they are never seen again. Those who fear to undertake this rite of
passage, or those who are deemed weak or unstable, are given the Rite of
Tranquility instead.The actual procedure, like the Harrowing, is secret, but the results are just as well known. The rite severs connection to the Fade. The Tranquil, therefore, do not dream. This removes the greatest danger that threatens a weak or unprepared mage, the potential to attract demons across the Veil.
But this is the least of Tranquility's effects. For the absence of
dreams brings with it the end of all magical ability, as well as all
emotion.
The Tranquil, ironically, resemble sleepwalkers, never entirely awake nor asleep. They are still part of our Circle,
however, and some might say they are the most critical part. They have
incredible powers of concentration, for it is simply impossible to
distract a Tranquil mage, and this makes them capable of becoming
craftsmen of such skill that they rival even the adeptness of the
dwarves. The Formari,
the branch of the Circle devoted to item enchantment, is made up
exclusively of Tranquil, and is the source of all the wealth that
sustains our towers.
--From On Tranquility and the Role of the Fade in Human Society, by first Enchanter Josephus.

Each and every one of these codex entries talk of how Tranquility is one of the choices, but is only one of three. Heck, the last one specifically says that if a mage is considered weak, (s)he is made tranquil right there.

That supports Jowan's line when you ask about it in the mage origin.

It is established lore. This new lore on weak mages being let go simply spits in the face of the already existing lore, and tries rewriting the facts.

Now if they tried saying that some mages are considered weak, and sympathetic templars allowed them to go, or templars allowed mages who aren't considered dangerous to go (case in point, Merevar Carver and Malcolm Hawke) that would be one thing, and does fit into the lore that some templars aren't hardcore zealots like Meredith or Rylock, or sadists like Alrik and Kerras, and some mages escape because of those templars, that would fit into the lore without trying to go against the established lore.

[Medhia Nox]

@Silfren: Interesting that you think the mages of DA2 were a retcon.

Most of the mages that gave me my poor opinion of Thedosian mages come from DA:O

What young "weak" mages were we shown to be Tranquilized for being too weak and incapable of passing the Harrowing?

- Jowan was going to be Tranquilized because he resorted to blood magic.
- Owain decided to become Tranquilized of his own accord.

It's true - we have no examples of young mages being set free.

But if everything applied to everyone all the time on Thedas - it would be a pitifully made fantasy world and not really worth my time.

I read fantasy expecting all statement to be made as "the majority" of instances. Just like I do in the real world when people make grandstanding generalized statements.

I'm not against clarification - I'm also not against retcons.

But there is no place I'm aware of where they specifically state: "Mages too weak to cast anything but the most routine trick are still kept locked away in the tower and Tranquilized."

Where not they're saying: "Mages too weak to cast anything but the most routine trick are let go with templar supervision."

It must be said that it seems mainly Pro-Mage Rebellion folks don't like this "retcon".

[Medhia Nox]

And I'm going to repeat again:

Weak of will... is NOT

Weak of power.

@dragonflight: Everything you posted says - to me - "Weak of will."

Do you remember the mage who catches on fire in the DA:O ?   Yeah, well immolation certainly isn't "Weak of power." 

BUT - if that mage can't get under control - he will be "Weak of will."

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 07 octobre 2013 - 09:19 .

[Fredward]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Why do you think they can't be possessed? Also, hedge mages seem to go insane due to the unnatural way their powers work.

That's the only reason I can think of for why the templars would let them go. Or that a "weak" mage is not a very appealing target for a demon but THAT one doesn't make much sense because they're willing to possess corpses. This is all supposition though. I have no idea what's going on. And if hedge mage mage magic really does drive them insane it makes even less sense to let them go. Even if they only can conjure apples do you really want a crazy person hurling apples at everyone? No. Those hurt. Also hedge mage needs a more elegant handle. How 'bout Wilder since we're borrowing so much from WoT anyway?

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And which previosuly established lore, which gave us absolute knowledge of the Circles and their workings exactly is it, that it contradicts?

There are several instances of established Lore. Jowan's quote that I mentioned earlier. There's also a few reputable codex entries, none of which even come close to implying that there's another option beyond the three established ones. Harrowing, Tranquility, or Death.

Coden Entry: Tranquility


Orana was brought to the Circle of Magi in Kirkwall
at the age of five. Her mentors had high hopes for the child, seeing
her talent for magic. Unfortunately, the poor child was plagued by
nightmares that only worsened after her move to the Gallows.
Orana became afraid of falling asleep. She would lie stiffly in
bed, her eyes wide open. Without sleep, she grew thin and wan, and her
studies began to suffer.
Orana began to experience waking dreams. Shadows flitted in corners, and she swore she heard voices calling her name. She knew demons could take advantage of her vulnerable state, and at the tender age of eleven, she requested to be made Tranquil. The first enchanter complied.
With her connection to the Fade
severed, Orana was again able to sleep. Her health returned, and she
was at peace with her decision. She continued her education at the
Circle and excelled in enchanting and runecrafting.
Orana saw the Rite of Tranquility as a gift, although many mocked
her for this view. Later in life, she created an amulet to remind her
of the Rite. She named it Tranquility. The Tranquility Amulet soothes
the mind and imparts a general sense of well-being to its wearer.



Codex Entry: Journal of the Tranquil


Some laugh at me. I no longer mind.
Once upon a time, I studied as they did. I learned under the
tutelage of an enchanter and attempted to master the art of bending
magic to my will, and while I did well enough, I know that I struggled. I
saw the way the enchanter looked at me, the sidelong glances of worry
and disappointment. While other apprentices were conjuring fire, I could
barely light a candle.
I was frightened of magic. When I was a boy, my grandmother regaled me with tales of the terrible Flemeth, the Witch of the Wilds. She told me of the magisters and how their evil magic infected the world with the darkspawn. She told me of demons,
and how they were drawn to the dreams of those who possessed magic like
moths to a flame. She told me all these things because, she said, the
talent ran in our family's blood.
And so it ran in mine. All my young life I had dreaded the thought, prayed to the Maker that I was not so cursed, but I knew otherwise. Deep in my heart, I knew. When the templars came to our home, I knew.
The mages' tower was terrifying, full of secrets and danger. The templars glared at me as if I could spring full into an abomination
before their very eyes. My enchanter patiently attempted to teach me to
marshal my willpower, my only defense should a demon attempt to enslave
me, but it was no use. How many nights did I cry myself to sleep in
that dark and lonely place?
Then my Harrowing came at last, my final test. Face a demon, they said, or submit to the Rite of Tranquility. They would sever my connection to the Fade,
and thus I would never dream and no demon could ever touch me--but I
would also be unable to do magic, and I would never feel an emotion ever
again. Facing the demon was certain death, so my choice was easy.
It was not so painful.
Now I serve in other ways. We Tranquil manage the archives. We
run the tower, purchase the supplies and maintain the accounts. Our
condition also allows us to use the magical element lyrium without ill
effect, and thus we are the ones who enchant the magical items. We are
the merchants who sell these items to those the Circle permits, and the coin from those sales provides the Circle's wealth.
Thus, we Tranquil are vital. The young and old may stare at me,
ill at ease, but they would be worse off without me. They may think me a
failure, but there is no horror for me now. I feel no fear of what I
am. The shadows are merely shadows, and I am content.
--Eddin the Meek, Tranquil of the Circle of Magi of Starkhaven, the Free Marches.
Codex Entry: The Tranquil


If the Warden is a mage...
Although apprentices do not know the nature of the Harrowing, all of them understand its consequences: They either pass and become full mages,
or they are never seen again. Those who fear to undertake this rite of
passage, or those who are deemed weak or unstable, are given the Rite of
Tranquility instead.The actual procedure, like the Harrowing, is secret, but the results are just as well known. The rite severs connection to the Fade. The Tranquil, therefore, do not dream. This removes the greatest danger that threatens a weak or unprepared mage, the potential to attract demons across the Veil.
But this is the least of Tranquility's effects. For the absence of
dreams brings with it the end of all magical ability, as well as all
emotion.
The Tranquil, ironically, resemble sleepwalkers, never entirely awake nor asleep. They are still part of our Circle,
however, and some might say they are the most critical part. They have
incredible powers of concentration, for it is simply impossible to
distract a Tranquil mage, and this makes them capable of becoming
craftsmen of such skill that they rival even the adeptness of the
dwarves. The Formari,
the branch of the Circle devoted to item enchantment, is made up
exclusively of Tranquil, and is the source of all the wealth that
sustains our towers.
--From On Tranquility and the Role of the Fade in Human Society, by first Enchanter Josephus.

Each and every one of these codex entries talk of how Tranquility is one of the choices, but is only one of three. Heck, the last one specifically says that if a mage is considered weak, (s)he is made tranquil right there.

That supports Jowan's line when you ask about it in the mage origin.

It is established lore. This new lore on weak mages being let go simply spits in the face of the already existing lore, and tries rewriting the facts.

Now if they tried saying that some mages are considered weak, and sympathetic templars allowed them to go, or templars allowed mages who aren't considered dangerous to go (case in point, Merevar Carver and Malcolm Hawke) that would be one thing, and does fit into the lore that some templars aren't hardcore zealots like Meredith or Rylock, or sadists like Alrik and Kerras, and some mages escape because of those templars, that would fit into the lore without trying to go against the established lore.

None of the entries you link, nor Jowans quote, offers any absolute truth. There was no reason taht Jowan would know about the weakest of amges, so that point is no good for you. The entries doesn't go into enough details of the weakest of amges. They actually seem to be about mages of average to above pwoer, which would mean, tehy had no reason to know about the outside Circle living mages either. In short NOTHING in the established lore, contradicts the new lore. What YOU percieved as an absolute truth, has proven not to be so, and such your worldview must be adapted, but you chose to struggle against it.
As has now been pointed out several times, we even got as far back as DA:O, cases of the Chantry allowing mages to live outside the Circle. So what World of Thedas brought up, was nothing new, it was just an elaboration.

[Wulfram]

I don't find the notion of really really weak mages being let go too problematic. It's true that it's not been mentioned, but it wouldn't really be relevant to Jowan because he's presumably not that weak.

I'm not super keen on it because it seems to undermine the notion that mages are inherently a threat, but if they want to say that really weak mages don't attract demons then whatever. It doesn't really change the debate much if there are a few guys out there who maybe don't need to carry matches but are otherwise powerless.

[Silfren]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Silfren: Interesting that you think the mages of DA2 were a retcon.

That was rather sloppy wording on my part.  I didn't mean that as an example of a retcon per se, just an example of Devs skewing something for no other reason than a deliberate attempt to re-position general fan perception, as was admitted by Gaider not long after DA2's release.

It must be said that it seems mainly Pro-Mage Rebellion folks don't like this "retcon".

And it must be said that only pro-templars insist on making irrelevant and off-topic pot shots like this.  See?  I can do it, too.

[Medhia Nox]

@Silfren: It would have been great if I were a Pro-Templar supporter.

[Silfren]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Why do you think they can't be possessed? Also, hedge mages seem to go insane due to the unnatural way their powers work.

That's the only reason I can think of for why the templars would let them go. Or that a "weak" mage is not a very appealing target for a demon but THAT one doesn't make much sense because they're willing to possess corpses. This is all supposition though. I have no idea what's going on. And if hedge mage mage magic really does drive them insane it makes even less sense to let them go. Even if they only can conjure apples do you really want a crazy person hurling apples at everyone? No. Those hurt. Also hedge mage needs a more elegant handle. How 'bout Wilder since we're borrowing so much from WoT anyway?

In fairness, I believe the established point on demons possessing corpses is that they don't understand what corpses are, don't understand until the possession takes place that inhabiting a corpse is fundamentally different from inhabiting a living person.  Which is interesting, since it seems to imply that a demon can't unpossess the corpse and go after a better target.

[miniy2j]

I've always viewed the mage/templar plight as a whole take on the whole x-men mutant we're perfectly normal individuals who don't deserve to be enslaved or culled because we're different. Charles Xavier and classic Magneto and their two schools of thought and which one was more right. Then Civil War happened in Marvel and I realized, or well it became much more obvious. These people can do serious harm. Superman brawls in the street with some sort of villain and you get mass casualties. I mean the heroic saves are nice and all but the property damage, the collapsed buildings the fact that they get smashed through walls, with people still in them. I'm realistic people die.

Now, the nuance with mages is that, there are bad people who are mages. It's not necessarily they're going to become an abomination, but blood magic perhaps the most morally ambiguous of the lot exists and there will be those who abuse it, just like most other schools of magic. Of course this isn't the case if you've specialized in healing but lets call that the exception to the rule. You can make this argument for nearly anything and if this was the only reason people had for locking up mages, well then fight for freedom.

The real problem with mages is the whole becoming an abomination thing. It can happen to anyone, and mages are human. They have human emotions as such they get jealous, they get angry. Some people will be weaker mentally then others, and some will be mentally stronger. Each individual is different. And lets face it being a teenager with all these powers is just asking for disaster.

We as a society quarantine people who are infectious and we put people away who are a danger to themselves and others. There has to be a compromise, what that compromise is beyond me. I'd go with keeping them in the circle until they're 21, whoever passes the harrowing should be able to leave. If they choose, have them registered have them check in every two years give them some money so they can start a life. Hunt them down if they abuse their powers. Those that don't shouldn't have to be made tranquil but they shouldn't be allowed to leave the circle either. If I'm going to take a side it's going to be the templars so long as the templars aren't addicted to lyrium and are underneath the chantry rule. As for giving mages the ability to have some influence in politics I think that's fair but only the first enchanter should have some political clout. They shouldn't be able to rule others, but they shouldn't be voiceless either.

[Bleachrude]

Silfren wrote...

[
In fairness, I believe the established point on demons possessing corpses is that they don't understand what corpses are, don't understand until the possession takes place that inhabiting a corpse is fundamentally different from inhabiting a living person.  Which is interesting, since it seems to imply that a demon can't unpossess the corpse and go after a better target.

But hasn't this been true since Origins? The Old Oak explicitly mentions that sylvans are trapped spirits/demons that are angry at their imprisonment and thus become maloevent.

He is somewhat of an exception (and you probably can throw the Lady of the Forest in here as well) that accepted their imprisonment...Same thing with Justice as he jumped to Anders but I assume that was because Anders allowed him in like how normal abominations are formed.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Why do you think they can't be possessed? Also, hedge mages seem to go insane due to the unnatural way their powers work.

That's the only reason I can think of for why the templars would let them go. Or that a "weak" mage is not a very appealing target for a demon but THAT one doesn't make much sense because they're willing to possess corpses. This is all supposition though. I have no idea what's going on. And if hedge mage mage magic really does drive them insane it makes even less sense to let them go. Even if they only can conjure apples do you really want a crazy person hurling apples at everyone? No. Those hurt. Also hedge mage needs a more elegant handle. How 'bout Wilder since we're borrowing so much from WoT anyway?

The thing is, we're working off an overly specific definition of "hedge mage." A hedge mage is simply a mage who was either not educated by the Circle, or simply not educated. Bethany (before being sent to the Circle or if she never is at all) and Morrigan qualify, despite the former being trained by an escaped mage and the latter having abilities similar to Wynne's in addition to her unusual stuff. The hedge mages who have the overly specific power are the ones who did not receive proper training. Left on its own in that manner, the magic will express itself somehow, and the mage goes insane besides.

As for a weak mage being a less appealing target for a demon, a demon will possess a tree or a corpse if they need to. And they can possess Templars. The reason they want to possess mages, and the reason the Chantry wants them not to, is because the host's magic makes the resulting being more powerful. Which would make releasing weak mages the logical option, except that Gaider had previously states that weak mages are still a massive step up from an ordinary human host.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 07 octobre 2013 - 11:51 .

[Plaintiff]

miniy2j wrote...
I've always viewed the mage/templar plight as a whole take on the whole x-men mutant we're perfectly normal individuals who don't deserve to be enslaved or culled because we're different. Charles Xavier and classic Magneto and their two schools of thought and which one was more right. Then Civil War happened in Marvel and I realized, or well it became much more obvious. These people can do serious harm. Superman brawls in the street with some sort of villain and you get mass casualties. I mean the heroic saves are nice and all but the property damage, the collapsed buildings the fact that they get smashed through walls, with people still in them. I'm realistic people die.

Now, the nuance with mages is that, there are bad people who are mages. It's not necessarily they're going to become an abomination, but blood magic perhaps the most morally ambiguous of the lot exists and there will be those who abuse it, just like most other schools of magic. Of course this isn't the case if you've specialized in healing but lets call that the exception to the rule. You can make this argument for nearly anything and if this was the only reason people had for locking up mages, well then fight for freedom.

There are bad people who have powers in the Marvel universe too, so the nuance is still there. Not to mention the "normal" humans of that setting have access to destructive technology far beyond our own.

The Superhuman Registration Act of Marvel's Civil War plotline was actually far, far dumber than the Chantry's solution to the "mage issue" in Thedas. By hamstringing superheroes, all that really happens is that you reduce their ability to effectively fight supervillains, who don't abide by the law anyway. Meaning property damage and casualties will get worse, not better.

[dragonflight288]

@dragonflight: Everything you posted says - to me - "Weak of will."

Do you remember the mage who catches on fire in the DA:O ? Yeah, well immolation certainly isn't "Weak of power."

BUT - if that mage can't get under control - he will be "Weak of will."

I have another source then. Something I found today while playing Origins for the umpteenth time. My lady cousland was talking to the Tranquil at Ostagar, and he said something quite profound. He specifically said "All mages, even those with only minor talents, can be preyed upon by hungry spirits and become abominations." He says this when asked why the Circle/Chantry makes mages tranquil, and he talks about how mages are dangerous.

He makes it quite clear that even the weakest mages are dangerous for the very fact that they are in danger of being possessed, something World of Thedas is now trying to deny.

And yes, he specifically says 'mages with minor talents' which in turn means that they aren't necessarily weak of will but weak of magical capacity.