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[dragonflight288]

Filament wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I'm not super keen on it because it seems to undermine the notion that mages are inherently a threat, but if they want to say that really weak mages don't attract demons then whatever. It doesn't really change the debate much if there are a few guys out there who maybe don't need to carry matches but are otherwise powerless.

It also undermines the rationale that being put into circles is as much for the mages' own protection as for the protection of Thedas from them. As if regular thedosians are going to just set aside their irrational fear because his magic isn't a 'threat.'

If the rationale is undermined by this logic, it would only stand to reason that the Circles aren't as needed as the chantry and templars believe in that case.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Filament wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I'm not super keen on it because it seems to undermine the notion that mages are inherently a threat, but if they want to say that really weak mages don't attract demons then whatever. It doesn't really change the debate much if there are a few guys out there who maybe don't need to carry matches but are otherwise powerless.

It also undermines the rationale that being put into circles is as much for the mages' own protection as for the protection of Thedas from them. As if regular thedosians are going to just set aside their irrational fear because his magic isn't a 'threat.'

If the rationale is undermined by this logic, it would only stand to reason that the Circles aren't as needed as the chantry and templars believe in that case.

We have from Gaider (and a Codex in Origins) that a kid being a mage will stop a parent loving their child. So the rationale of protecting the mages holds up, if the manophobia in this society runs that deep. It might be that this will also be the explanation given of why we've never heard of this before; that the Templars are afraid of mass lynchings of everyone suspected of being a mage (and many of these suspects won't be) if this gets out.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 08 octobre 2013 - 01:55 .

[dragonflight288]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Filament wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I'm not super keen on it because it seems to undermine the notion that mages are inherently a threat, but if they want to say that really weak mages don't attract demons then whatever. It doesn't really change the debate much if there are a few guys out there who maybe don't need to carry matches but are otherwise powerless.

It also undermines the rationale that being put into circles is as much for the mages' own protection as for the protection of Thedas from them. As if regular thedosians are going to just set aside their irrational fear because his magic isn't a 'threat.'

If the rationale is undermined by this logic, it would only stand to reason that the Circles aren't as needed as the chantry and templars believe in that case.

We have from Gaider (and a Codex in Origins) that a kid being a mage will stop a parent loving their child. So the rationale of protecting the mages holds up, if the manophobia in this society runs that deep. It might be that this will also be the explanation given of why we've never heard of this before; that the Templars are afraid of mass lynchings of everyone suspected of being a mage (and many of these suspects won't be) if this gets out.

Yeah, but then we should have more examples than we do of templars caring about the mages well-being. We have....er....Thrask, Merevar Carver....Gregoire to an extent....all other templars, including the nice ones, don't really show much care about the mages well-being or safety.

EDIT: I'm not including Ser Otto or Ser Bryant in the list because they don't really specify caring about the mages well-being. Ser Bryant places the protection of the Refugees as a higher priority than hunting mages, and Ser Otto is investigating the alienage and never really discusses mages and how they're treated, so I can't really use them as examples.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 08 octobre 2013 - 01:59 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Filament wrote...

It also undermines the rationale that being put into circles is as much for the mages' own protection as for the protection of Thedas from them. As if regular thedosians are going to just set aside their irrational fear because his magic isn't a 'threat.'

If the rationale is undermined by this logic, it would only stand to reason that the Circles aren't as needed as the chantry and templars believe in that case.

We have from Gaider (and a Codex in Origins) that a kid being a mage will stop a parent loving their child. So the rationale of protecting the mages holds up, if the manophobia in this society runs that deep. It might be that this will also be the explanation given of why we've never heard of this before; that the Templars are afraid of mass lynchings of everyone suspected of being a mage (and many of these suspects won't be) if this gets out.

Yeah, but then we should have more examples than we do of templars caring about the mages well-being. We have....er....Thrask, Merevar Carver....Gregoire to an extent....all other templars, including the nice ones, don't really show much care about the mages well-being or safety.

Quite apart from the fact that that's a reasonable number of the Templars who are given actual personalities instead of being faceless and includes one person in authority, this potential threat isn't limited to the mages. Mundanes could be lynched over anything an uneducated peasant could mistake for magic, and this isn't a small list of phenomena. Besides, they're trying to do the Templars job for them with this, and risking their lives in the process if they find someone who isn't in the Circle and legitimately ought to be. If for instance, a lynch mob found Caladrius, he'd probably juggle them.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 08 octobre 2013 - 02:06 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Filament wrote...

You don't protect children from their parents by locking them in a tower. You protect them from a society that fears mages. If all mages had to do was hide their power, anyone could be let free.

Which, really, they could, which is why the chantry can't afford these "mercies," because it's admitting this inconsistency.

Except that that's not the only reason. The mages can abuse their power, the mages can be abused (more than the Circle does, or at least more than the Circles that aren't in Kirkwall do), the mages can turn into ravening abominations. The Circle is a grim solution, but I think it's justified in the light of the last part alone. The other two alone or together would be solvable through less drastic measures, but put them all together and maybe you'll be able to see my point.

[dragonflight288]

Quite apart from the fact that that's a reasonable number of the Templars who are given actual personalities instead of being faceless and includes one person in authority, this potential threat isn't limited to the mages. Mundanes could be lynched over anything an uneducated peasant could mistake for magic, and this isn't a small list of phenomena. Besides, they're trying to do the Templars job for them with this, and risking their lives in the process if they find someone who isn't in the Circle and legitimately ought to be. If for instance, a lynch mob found Caladrius, he'd probably juggle them.

Mage Warden: I thought all templars liked killing mages?
Cullen: I know some templars who discuss such things with glee.

Anders: You can't do this! King Alistair allowed my conscription!
Ser Rylock: The Chantry's authority supercedes the Crown in this matter.

Kerras: The Knight-Commander has been appealing to the Divine for the Right of Annulment. Finally we can show these robes a thing or two.

Thrask: If they have not surrendered by the time Kerras arrives, he'll kill them without mercy and Knight-Commander Meredith would consider him justified.

Templar from Asunder: *holds Rhys by the throat* You will Confess.
Rhys: And if I don't?
Templars: *squeezes his throat* You will die. (forgot the exact line, but it's pretty much this.)

Yup. There are plenty of examples of templars being stellar examples of caring for mages and trying to keep them from being killed by the world because it's part of their duty...wait....

Hawke: Why should I help you annul the Circle?
Meredith: The people will demand blood!

No...they don't. There are far more examples in the game of the opposite being true.

[Silfren]

Filament wrote...

You don't protect children from their parents by locking them in a tower. You protect them from a society that fears mages. If all mages had to do was hide their power, anyone could be let free.

Which, really, they could, which is why the chantry can't afford these "mercies," because it's admitting this inconsistency.

And isn't blood magic inherently more powerful than mana-based?  I might be overthinking this and overlooking something else, but since blood magic can't be detected the way that "regular" magic can, I'd be surprised if the templars weren't automatically suspicious of a mage who was apparently weak.

[Silfren]

Filament wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Except that that's not the only reason. The mages can abuse their power, the mages can be abused (more than the Circle does, or at least more than the Circles that aren't in Kirkwall do), the mages can turn into ravening abominations. The Circle is a grim solution, but I think it's justified in the light of the last part alone. The other two alone or together would be solvable through less drastic measures, but put them all together and maybe you'll be able to see my point.

I understand the other reasons, but evidently this one is not actually a reason at all, but just a kind of fake paternalism they made up to sleep better with the fact that they keep mages imprisoned against their will.

If it was a reason, they wouldn't throw weak mages to the wolves like that, because people would eventually find out, and kill them.

I guess I don't have a problem with the chantry being inconsistent like that, just that when it seems like it's for the sake of whitewashing them to be more merciful and they seemed consistent before said whitewashing... well, whatever.

This is my problem.  I've no issues with the Chantry being a huge inconsistent hypocrite.  I do have a problem with the Devs re-writing the lore in order to encourage people to re-interpret the Chantry as more benign and merciful than they did previously.

Modifié par Silfren, 08 octobre 2013 - 02:44 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Mage Warden: I thought all templars liked killing mages?
Cullen: I know some templars who discuss such things with glee. 

Anders: You can't do this! King Alistair allowed my conscription!
Ser Rylock: The Chantry's authority supercedes the Crown in this matter.

Kerras: The Knight-Commander has been appealing to the Divine for the Right of Annulment. Finally we can show these robes a thing or two.

Thrask: If they have not surrendered by the time Kerras arrives, he'll kill them without mercy and Knight-Commander Meredith would consider him justified. 

Templar from Asunder: *holds Rhys by the throat* You will Confess.
Rhys: And if I don't?
Templars: *squeezes his throat* You will die. (forgot the exact line, but it's pretty much this.)

Yup. There are plenty of examples of templars being stellar examples of caring for mages and trying to keep them from being killed by the world because it's part of their duty...wait....

Hawke: Why should I help you annul the Circle?
Meredith: The people will demand blood!

No...they don't. There are far more examples in the game of the opposite being true. 

Okay, but even if we don't agree on this one I've already given several other reasons why letting the storm of lynchings happen is a bad idea.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 08 octobre 2013 - 02:27 .

[Xilizhra]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Okay, but even if we don't agree on this one I've already given several other reasons why letting the storm of lynchings happen is a bad idea.

This is a bit off topic, but it'd be really fun to incinerate a whole lynch mob at once.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Okay, but even if we don't agree on this one I've already given several other reasons why letting the storm of lynchings happen is a bad idea.

This is a bit off topic, but it'd be really fun to incinerate a whole lynch mob at once.

Assuming you're one of the mages capable of such.

[Xilizhra]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Okay, but even if we don't agree on this one I've already given several other reasons why letting the storm of lynchings happen is a bad idea.

This is a bit off topic, but it'd be really fun to incinerate a whole lynch mob at once.

Assuming you're one of the mages capable of such.

I mean in DAI.

And I don't think unjust imprisonment of the victims is really a good way to counteract lynch mobs.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Okay, but even if we don't agree on this one I've already given several other reasons why letting the storm of lynchings happen is a bad idea.

This is a bit off topic, but it'd be really fun to incinerate a whole lynch mob at once.

Assuming you're one of the mages capable of such.

I mean in DAI.

And I don't think unjust imprisonment of the victims is really a good way to counteract lynch mobs.

Oh, man, this is not the discussion I had in mind when I made that observation...

The lynch mob problem could be overcome with other solutions. So could the power hungry bastard maleficar problem. But the Circle mitigates both of those and the problem of abominations.

[Xilizhra]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Okay, but even if we don't agree on this one I've already given several other reasons why letting the storm of lynchings happen is a bad idea.

This is a bit off topic, but it'd be really fun to incinerate a whole lynch mob at once.

Assuming you're one of the mages capable of such.

I mean in DAI.

And I don't think unjust imprisonment of the victims is really a good way to counteract lynch mobs.

Oh, man, this is not the discussion I had in mind when I made that observation...

The lynch mob problem could be overcome with other solutions. So could the power hungry bastard maleficar problem. But the Circle mitigates both of those and the problem of abominations.

Yes... while creating numerous new ones. So many wrong things are inherent in the system that it's not salvageable. We need a new system.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...


Assuming you're one of the mages capable of such.

I mean in DAI.

And I don't think unjust imprisonment of the victims is really a good way to counteract lynch mobs.

Oh, man, this is not the discussion I had in mind when I made that observation...

The lynch mob problem could be overcome with other solutions. So could the power hungry bastard maleficar problem. But the Circle mitigates both of those and the problem of abominations.

Yes... while creating numerous new ones. So many wrong things are inherent in the system that it's not salvageable. We need a new system.

One of Gaider's observations was that while there's a very good argument that the Circle system is broken, there's an equally good argument that there's no better one. I kind of agree with him here.

[Xilizhra]

One of Gaider's observations was that while there's a very good argument that the Circle system is broken, there's an equally good argument that there's no better one. I kind of agree with him here.

Well, sure, there's not a better one now, as no one's made one. That doesn't mean that it's impossible to make a better one.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

One of Gaider's observations was that while there's a very good argument that the Circle system is broken, there's an equally good argument that there's no better one. I kind of agree with him here.

Well, sure, there's not a better one now, as no one's made one. That doesn't mean that it's impossible to make a better one.

No, but the various factors Gaider put in to complicate the issues are steps in that direction.

[Xilizhra]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

One of Gaider's observations was that while there's a very good argument that the Circle system is broken, there's an equally good argument that there's no better one. I kind of agree with him here.

Well, sure, there's not a better one now, as no one's made one. That doesn't mean that it's impossible to make a better one.

No, but the various factors Gaider put in to complicate the issues are steps in that direction.

While I find myself not completely comfortable with a universe where the writers deliberately took steps to make biological discrimination acceptable to some, I have confidence that those issues can be navigated nonetheless.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

One of Gaider's observations was that while there's a very good argument that the Circle system is broken, there's an equally good argument that there's no better one. I kind of agree with him here.

Well, sure, there's not a better one now, as no one's made one. That doesn't mean that it's impossible to make a better one.

No, but the various factors Gaider put in to complicate the issues are steps in that direction.

While I find myself not completely comfortable with a universe where the writers deliberately took steps to make biological discrimination acceptable to some, I have confidence that those issues can be navigated nonetheless.

Okay then. What we need is a system to prevent abominations from being made (or failing that make the abominations less of a threat, which is almost certainly going to require killing them basically right there and then), protect mundanes from abuses of magic (blood fueled or otherwise), protect mages from lynch mobs (be they Templars or civilians), and be obvious enough that the programmers thought of it about a year ago (because this isn't tabletop, and therefore any such solution you come up with is no good if the programmers don't start on it a long time in advance. It's the price we pay for such good graphics, I suppose.)

We can't read the programmer's minds, so the fourth category is moot unless and until you discover that you outthought them. Do you have anything for the other three?

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 08 octobre 2013 - 03:02 .

[dragonflight288]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Mage Warden: I thought all templars liked killing mages?
Cullen: I know some templars who discuss such things with glee. 

Anders: You can't do this! King Alistair allowed my conscription!
Ser Rylock: The Chantry's authority supercedes the Crown in this matter.

Kerras: The Knight-Commander has been appealing to the Divine for the Right of Annulment. Finally we can show these robes a thing or two.

Thrask: If they have not surrendered by the time Kerras arrives, he'll kill them without mercy and Knight-Commander Meredith would consider him justified. 

Templar from Asunder: *holds Rhys by the throat* You will Confess.
Rhys: And if I don't?
Templars: *squeezes his throat* You will die. (forgot the exact line, but it's pretty much this.)

Yup. There are plenty of examples of templars being stellar examples of caring for mages and trying to keep them from being killed by the world because it's part of their duty...wait....

Hawke: Why should I help you annul the Circle?
Meredith: The people will demand blood!

No...they don't. There are far more examples in the game of the opposite being true. 

Okay, but even if we don't agree on this one I've already given several other reasons why letting the storm of lynchings happen is a bad idea.

I agree with that. I've advocated putting mages in Circles in the past, at the very least, until they can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they can control their powers. My problems come from the fact that I don't trust the Chantry and the templars based on their history to hold the Mages well-being in very high regard.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Mage Warden: I thought all templars liked killing mages?
Cullen: I know some templars who discuss such things with glee. 

Anders: You can't do this! King Alistair allowed my conscription!
Ser Rylock: The Chantry's authority supercedes the Crown in this matter.

Kerras: The Knight-Commander has been appealing to the Divine for the Right of Annulment. Finally we can show these robes a thing or two.

Thrask: If they have not surrendered by the time Kerras arrives, he'll kill them without mercy and Knight-Commander Meredith would consider him justified. 

Templar from Asunder: *holds Rhys by the throat* You will Confess.
Rhys: And if I don't?
Templars: *squeezes his throat* You will die. (forgot the exact line, but it's pretty much this.)

Yup. There are plenty of examples of templars being stellar examples of caring for mages and trying to keep them from being killed by the world because it's part of their duty...wait....

Hawke: Why should I help you annul the Circle?
Meredith: The people will demand blood!

No...they don't. There are far more examples in the game of the opposite being true. 

Okay, but even if we don't agree on this one I've already given several other reasons why letting the storm of lynchings happen is a bad idea.

I agree with that. I've advocated putting mages in Circles in the past, at the very least, until they can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they can control their powers. My problems come from the fact that I don't trust the Chantry and the templars based on their history to hold the Mages well-being in very high regard.

That is an absolutely legitimate qualm. I have the same one.

[Xilizhra]

Okay then. What we need is a system to prevent abominations from being made (or failing that make the abominations less of a threat, which is almost certainly going to require killing them basically right there and then), protect mundanes from abuses of magic (blood fueled or otherwise), protect mages from lynch mobs, and be obvious enough that the programmers thought of it about a year ago (because this isn't tabletop, and therefore any such solution you come up with is no good if the programmers don't start on it a long time in advance. It's the price we pay for such good graphics, I suppose.)

I believe that my system of a Circle system independent of the Chantry that allows families and loved ones of mages to settle in communities near the location itself, probably with expanded rights of travel, is a decent start that would hopefully fit with the current mindset of Thedas enough to be viable, and can then be improved from there on.