2497 réponses à ce sujet

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

Okay then. What we need is a system to prevent abominations from being made (or failing that make the abominations less of a threat, which is almost certainly going to require killing them basically right there and then), protect mundanes from abuses of magic (blood fueled or otherwise), protect mages from lynch mobs, and be obvious enough that the programmers thought of it about a year ago (because this isn't tabletop, and therefore any such solution you come up with is no good if the programmers don't start on it a long time in advance. It's the price we pay for such good graphics, I suppose.)

I believe that my system of a Circle system independent of the Chantry that allows families and loved ones of mages to settle in communities near the location itself, probably with expanded rights of travel, is a decent start that would hopefully fit with the current mindset of Thedas enough to be viable, and can then be improved from there on.

Wait a minute, if you're in favor of that too then what are we arguing about?

[Xilizhra]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Okay then. What we need is a system to prevent abominations from being made (or failing that make the abominations less of a threat, which is almost certainly going to require killing them basically right there and then), protect mundanes from abuses of magic (blood fueled or otherwise), protect mages from lynch mobs, and be obvious enough that the programmers thought of it about a year ago (because this isn't tabletop, and therefore any such solution you come up with is no good if the programmers don't start on it a long time in advance. It's the price we pay for such good graphics, I suppose.)

I believe that my system of a Circle system independent of the Chantry that allows families and loved ones of mages to settle in communities near the location itself, probably with expanded rights of travel, is a decent start that would hopefully fit with the current mindset of Thedas enough to be viable, and can then be improved from there on.

Wait a minute, if you're in favor of that too then what are we arguing about?

This is an intermediate step. Additionally, I'm removing the Chantry and templars entirely, and replacing them with secular soldiers with templar training, who only have law enforcement powers, not the privileges of command they currently have.

[dragonflight288]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Okay then. What we need is a system to prevent abominations from being made (or failing that make the abominations less of a threat, which is almost certainly going to require killing them basically right there and then), protect mundanes from abuses of magic (blood fueled or otherwise), protect mages from lynch mobs, and be obvious enough that the programmers thought of it about a year ago (because this isn't tabletop, and therefore any such solution you come up with is no good if the programmers don't start on it a long time in advance. It's the price we pay for such good graphics, I suppose.)

I believe that my system of a Circle system independent of the Chantry that allows families and loved ones of mages to settle in communities near the location itself, probably with expanded rights of travel, is a decent start that would hopefully fit with the current mindset of Thedas enough to be viable, and can then be improved from there on.

Wait a minute, if you're in favor of that too then what are we arguing about?

It's always entertaining, but frustrating when it happens to me, to find out that we are actually in agreement, but because we perceive or interpret their inflections in such a manner as to be accusatory or argumentative, we end up in vivious debate without end.

And ultimately, we may end up debating over small details that no one really cares about until all the bigger details are resolved. Many people agree on larger principles, but start arguing over the small details very quickly.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Okay then. What we need is a system to prevent abominations from being made (or failing that make the abominations less of a threat, which is almost certainly going to require killing them basically right there and then), protect mundanes from abuses of magic (blood fueled or otherwise), protect mages from lynch mobs, and be obvious enough that the programmers thought of it about a year ago (because this isn't tabletop, and therefore any such solution you come up with is no good if the programmers don't start on it a long time in advance. It's the price we pay for such good graphics, I suppose.)

I believe that my system of a Circle system independent of the Chantry that allows families and loved ones of mages to settle in communities near the location itself, probably with expanded rights of travel, is a decent start that would hopefully fit with the current mindset of Thedas enough to be viable, and can then be improved from there on.

Wait a minute, if you're in favor of that too then what are we arguing about?

This is an intermediate step.

What will it be replaced with? The only thing I can think of that will work for any length of time will be the ideal Circle we're both picturing.

Additionally, I'm removing the Chantry and templars entirely, and replacing them with secular soldiers with templar training, who only have law enforcement powers, not the privileges of command they currently have.

You'll need another source of the knowledge to cancel magic, and someone to police them in the meantime. I think both of these will require co-opting such templars as are relatively trustworthy.

[Xilizhra]

What will it be replaced with? The only thing I can think of that will work for any length of time will be the ideal Circle we're both picturing.

I'll have to see what's possible when I get there.

You'll need another source of the knowledge to cancel magic, and someone to police them in the meantime. I think both of these will require co-opting such templars as are relatively trustworthy.

If there are those templars who surrender and renounce the Order entirely... maybe.

[Vit246]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
One of Gaider's observations was that while there's a very good argument that the Circle system is broken, there's an equally good argument that there's no better one. I kind of agree with him here.

No better one? There's already a better one. Well, one that used to exist before the Templars executed the Annulment. It was the Rivain Circle. There, mages were freely interacting with their families and most of mundane society. And nothing bad happened.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

What will it be replaced with? The only thing I can think of that will work for any length of time will be the ideal Circle we're both picturing.

I'll have to see what's possible when I get there.

In the Green Ronin version of Thedas? Plenty. In the Bioware version? Whatever the devs can think of. Now, the Bioware writers have an advantage over us with regards to thinking due to having more brains, but if the perfect solution is non-obvious enough that neither of us can think of one, you might want to prepare to be disappointed.

You'll need another source of the knowledge to cancel magic, and someone to police them in the meantime. I think both of these will require co-opting such templars as are relatively trustworthy.

If there are those templars who surrender and renounce the Order entirely... maybe.

Such people as are willing to do so will exist, and they will be necessary.

[dragonflight288]

Vit246 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
One of Gaider's observations was that while there's a very good argument that the Circle system is broken, there's an equally good argument that there's no better one. I kind of agree with him here.

No better one? There's already a better one. Well, one that used to exist before the Templars executed the Annulment. It was the Rivain Circle. There, mages were freely interacting with their families and most of mundane society. And nothing bad happened.

The Circle system itself was better before the third blight as well, when the Circles were run by a council of enchanters and the templars truly did exist simply to advise and observe. Then the Chantry gained the authority to foce Tranquility and the Right of Annulment, then the power went to the Chantry's/Templar's heads.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Vit246 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
One of Gaider's observations was that while there's a very good argument that the Circle system is broken, there's an equally good argument that there's no better one. I kind of agree with him here.

No better one? There's already a better one. Well, one that used to exist before the Templars executed the Annulment. It was the Rivain Circle. There, mages were freely interacting with their families and most of mundane society. And nothing bad happened.

I don't think that was the Circle. I think it was one of the apostate systems the Templars tolerated for mutual advantage. Such things are going to be necessary to handle mages who slip through the cracks, but I don't think they can be the whole solution.

Edit: Wait, never mind: the apostate system was the Circle. Okay, the fact that that worked is reassuring, but isolating the mages who are not yet Harrowed is still safer. Especially in such areas as mages aren't respected in. A large part of the reason the Rivaini mages could safely mix is because the seers were respected since before the Circles and still respected after Tevinter.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 08 octobre 2013 - 03:32 .

[Xilizhra]

In the Green Ronin version of Thedas? Plenty. In the Bioware version? Whatever the devs can think of. Now, the Bioware writers have an advantage over us with regards to thinking due to having more brains, but if the perfect solution is non-obvious enough that neither of us can think of one, you might want to prepare to be disappointed.

All of my sociopolitical information on Thedas is outdated, I need more current information.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

In the Green Ronin version of Thedas? Plenty. In the Bioware version? Whatever the devs can think of. Now, the Bioware writers have an advantage over us with regards to thinking due to having more brains, but if the perfect solution is non-obvious enough that neither of us can think of one, you might want to prepare to be disappointed.

All of my sociopolitical information on Thedas is outdated, I need more current information.

Funny, I just discovered the same thing.

[Vit246]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
One of Gaider's observations was that while there's a very good argument that the Circle system is broken, there's an equally good argument that there's no better one. I kind of agree with him here.

No better one? There's already a better one. Well, one that used to exist before the Templars executed the Annulment. It was the Rivain Circle. There, mages were freely interacting with their families and most of mundane society. And nothing bad happened.

I don't think that was the Circle. I think it was one of the apostate systems the Templars tolerated for mutual advantage. Such things are going to be necessary to handle mages who slip through the cracks, but I don't think they can be the whole solution.

Edit: Wait, never mind: the apostate system was the Circle. Okay, the fact that that worked is reassuring, but isolating the mages who are not yet Harrowed is still safer. Especially in such areas as mages aren't respected in. A large part of the reason the Rivaini mages could safely mix is because the seers were respected since before the Circles and still respected after Tevinter.

And the reason why it worked and the mages were respected was because the Chantry's influence was limited.

Modifié par Vit246, 08 octobre 2013 - 03:56 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Vit246 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
One of Gaider's observations was that while there's a very good argument that the Circle system is broken, there's an equally good argument that there's no better one. I kind of agree with him here.

No better one? There's already a better one. Well, one that used to exist before the Templars executed the Annulment. It was the Rivain Circle. There, mages were freely interacting with their families and most of mundane society. And nothing bad happened.

I don't think that was the Circle. I think it was one of the apostate systems the Templars tolerated for mutual advantage. Such things are going to be necessary to handle mages who slip through the cracks, but I don't think they can be the whole solution.

Edit: Wait, never mind: the apostate system was the Circle. Okay, the fact that that worked is reassuring, but isolating the mages who are not yet Harrowed is still safer. Especially in such areas as mages aren't respected in. A large part of the reason the Rivaini mages could safely mix is because the seers were respected since before the Circles and still respected after Tevinter.

And the reason why it worked and the mages were respected was because the Chantry's influence was limited[/u][u].

Which I already agreed is necessary. But they've already done some damage to most of the rest of the continent. Besides which even were this not the case, there's still the abomination problem (which is only rarely a problem but can be a disastrous one) and the problem of mages abusing their powers. The lynching and muggle-dominating problems aren't my main problem with mages living outside the Circle: those problems can be handled through other means. The problem of the occasional abomination Connor'ing the place is. The only way Redcliffe survives is if the PC directly intervenes in the battle; nothing else is sufficient.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 08 octobre 2013 - 04:06 .

[Vit246]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
One of Gaider's observations was that while there's a very good argument that the Circle system is broken, there's an equally good argument that there's no better one. I kind of agree with him here.

No better one? There's already a better one. Well, one that used to exist before the Templars executed the Annulment. It was the Rivain Circle. There, mages were freely interacting with their families and most of mundane society. And nothing bad happened.

I don't think that was the Circle. I think it was one of the apostate systems the Templars tolerated for mutual advantage. Such things are going to be necessary to handle mages who slip through the cracks, but I don't think they can be the whole solution.

Edit: Wait, never mind: the apostate system was the Circle. Okay, the fact that that worked is reassuring, but isolating the mages who are not yet Harrowed is still safer. Especially in such areas as mages aren't respected in. A large part of the reason the Rivaini mages could safely mix is because the seers were respected since before the Circles and still respected after Tevinter.

And the reason why it worked and the mages were respected was because the Chantry's influence was limited[/u][u].

Which I already agreed is necessary. But they've already done some damage to most of the rest of the continent. Besides which even were this not the case, there's still the abomination problem (which is only rarely a problem but can be a disastrous one) and the problem of mages abusing their powers. The lynching and muggle-dominating problems aren't my main problem with mages living outside the Circle: those problems can be handled through other means. The problem of the occasional abomination Connor'ing the place is. The only way Redcliffe survives is if the PC directly intervenes in the battle; nothing else is sufficient.

There will always be an abomination problem and mages maliciously abusing powers slipping through the cracks. But I think it can be kept to an acceptable minimum.

I would argue that the Connor situation would not have happened if there had been a Circle like Rivain in the first place. And Isolde would not have been inclined to keep and hide her mage child at all costs. She might have been amenable to the idea of sending Connor to the Circle since she can still see her child freely without having to pull strings.

And lets remember when Connor was possessed, he had a fortress and an army available at his service. I doubt the average abomination is gonna have all of that when abominations happen.

Modifié par Vit246, 08 octobre 2013 - 04:19 .

[dragonflight288]

Vit246 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
One of Gaider's observations was that while there's a very good argument that the Circle system is broken, there's an equally good argument that there's no better one. I kind of agree with him here.

No better one? There's already a better one. Well, one that used to exist before the Templars executed the Annulment. It was the Rivain Circle. There, mages were freely interacting with their families and most of mundane society. And nothing bad happened.

I don't think that was the Circle. I think it was one of the apostate systems the Templars tolerated for mutual advantage. Such things are going to be necessary to handle mages who slip through the cracks, but I don't think they can be the whole solution.

Edit: Wait, never mind: the apostate system was the Circle. Okay, the fact that that worked is reassuring, but isolating the mages who are not yet Harrowed is still safer. Especially in such areas as mages aren't respected in. A large part of the reason the Rivaini mages could safely mix is because the seers were respected since before the Circles and still respected after Tevinter.

And the reason why it worked and the mages were respected was because the Chantry's influence was limited[/u][u].

Which I already agreed is necessary. But they've already done some damage to most of the rest of the continent. Besides which even were this not the case, there's still the abomination problem (which is only rarely a problem but can be a disastrous one) and the problem of mages abusing their powers. The lynching and muggle-dominating problems aren't my main problem with mages living outside the Circle: those problems can be handled through other means. The problem of the occasional abomination Connor'ing the place is. The only way Redcliffe survives is if the PC directly intervenes in the battle; nothing else is sufficient.

There will always be an abomination problem and mages maliciously abusing powers slipping through the cracks. But I think it can be kept to an acceptable minimum.

I would argue that the Connor situation would not have happened if there had been a Circle like Rivain in the first place. And Isolde would not have been inclined to keep and hide her mage child at all costs. She might have been amenable to the idea of sending Connor to the Circle since she can still see her child freely without having to pull strings.

And lets remember when Connor was possessed, he had a fortress and an army available at his service. I doubt the average abomination is gonna have all of that when abominations happen.

Nor would every abomination be as powerful as a Desire demon.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Vit246 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Vit246 wrote...


And the reason why it worked and the mages were respected was because the Chantry's influence was limited[/u][u].

Which I already agreed is necessary. But they've already done some damage to most of the rest of the continent. Besides which even were this not the case, there's still the abomination problem (which is only rarely a problem but can be a disastrous one) and the problem of mages abusing their powers. The lynching and muggle-dominating problems aren't my main problem with mages living outside the Circle: those problems can be handled through other means. The problem of the occasional abomination Connor'ing the place is. The only way Redcliffe survives is if the PC directly intervenes in the battle; nothing else is sufficient.

There will always be an abomination problem and mages maliciously abusing powers slipping through the cracks. But I think it can be kept to an acceptable minimum.

That's what I'm trying to do.

I would argue that the Connor situation would not have happened if there had been a Circle like Rivain in the first place. And Isolde would not have been inclined to keep and hide her mage child at all costs. She might have been amenable to the idea of sending Connor to the Circle since she can still see her child freely without having to pull strings.

Except that that wasn't the whole problem. There's also the fact that mages cannot inherit (a law which I might be persuaded to do away with, though the mage would need to be a very stable person before I'd let him have a noble title), and the stigma of magic outside Rivain which cannot be undone in a day. Even if the PC were to take the Circles away from the Chantry, that wouldn't solve the hatred of mages problem.

And lets remember when Connor was possessed, he had a fortress and an army available at his service. I doubt the average abomination is gonna have all of that when abominations happen.

They can be quite bad enough on their own. They're mages infused with demons.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 08 octobre 2013 - 04:47 .

[Vit246]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Except that that wasn't the whole problem. There's also the fact that mages cannot inherit (a law which I might be persuaded to do away with), and the stigma of magic outside Rivain which cannot be undone in a day. Even if the PC were to take the Circles away from the Chantry, that wouldn't solve the hatred of mages problem.

Rome wasn't built in a day.
As it took time for the stigma of magic to spread across Thedas, it will take time for its undoing.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Vit246 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Except that that wasn't the whole problem. There's also the fact that mages cannot inherit (a law which I might be persuaded to do away with), and the stigma of magic outside Rivain which cannot be undone in a day. Even if the PC were to take the Circles away from the Chantry, that wouldn't solve the hatred of mages problem.

Rome wasn't built in a day.
As it took time for the stigma of magic to spread across Thedas, it will take time for its undoing.

Said time will probably be the entirety of the PC's natural lifespan. In the meantime, this still works as just one more argument for the Circles.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 08 octobre 2013 - 05:02 .

[dragonflight288]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Except that that wasn't the whole problem. There's also the fact that mages cannot inherit (a law which I might be persuaded to do away with), and the stigma of magic outside Rivain which cannot be undone in a day. Even if the PC were to take the Circles away from the Chantry, that wouldn't solve the hatred of mages problem.

Rome wasn't built in a day.
As it took time for the stigma of magic to spread across Thedas, it will take time for its undoing.

Said time will probably be the entirety of the PC's natural lifespan. In the meantime, this still works as just one more argument for the Circles.

It also works as an argument against the Circles. To the point, how can magic be destigmatized if mages are separted from the common man? One of the greatest sources of bias, fear and hatred is ignorance adding onto the "them or us" mindset. Far too often, pro-mages and pro-templars end up arguing despite having very similar ideas because it's either templar or mages and nothing in between.

Take Anders. He worked in Darktown for years for free, treating the refugees wounds, helping them give birth to children and he never asks for coin or any form of payment. In return, those very same non-mages are willing to fight and die to protect him from the templars.

Granted, a mage has to be fully trained, and that'll require a circle, but if you keep mages away from the people all the time, they will never get over their fear of magic.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Except that that wasn't the whole problem. There's also the fact that mages cannot inherit (a law which I might be persuaded to do away with), and the stigma of magic outside Rivain which cannot be undone in a day. Even if the PC were to take the Circles away from the Chantry, that wouldn't solve the hatred of mages problem.

Rome wasn't built in a day.
As it took time for the stigma of magic to spread across Thedas, it will take time for its undoing.

Said time will probably be the entirety of the PC's natural lifespan. In the meantime, this still works as just one more argument for the Circles.

It also works as an argument against the Circles. To the point, how can magic be destigmatized if mages are separted from the common man? One of the greatest sources of bias, fear and hatred is ignorance adding onto the "them or us" mindset. Far too often, pro-mages and pro-templars end up arguing despite having very similar ideas because it's either templar or mages and nothing in between.

Take Anders. He worked in Darktown for years for free, treating the refugees wounds, helping them give birth to children and he never asks for coin or any form of payment. In return, those very same non-mages are willing to fight and die to protect him from the templars.

Granted, a mage has to be fully trained, and that'll require a circle, but if you keep mages away from the people all the time, they will never get over their fear of magic.

I'm not arguing that mages should be kept in the Circles all the time. Heck, some mages don't really need supervision at all. Wynne spent almost a year outside the Circle, and the mages sent an entire army to fight the darkspawn, apparently without any notable incidents. (You know, besides the darkspawn.) Besides, organizations like the Mages Collective would be let in place under my plan in exchange for assisting the new Templar Order where needed. Ideally there'd still be Templars around for if the former apostates or displaced Circle mages needed bodyguards, or if my calculated risk backfired and they turned abomination, but it'd be a step in the right direction. (I hope.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 08 octobre 2013 - 05:53 .

[dragonflight288]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Except that that wasn't the whole problem. There's also the fact that mages cannot inherit (a law which I might be persuaded to do away with), and the stigma of magic outside Rivain which cannot be undone in a day. Even if the PC were to take the Circles away from the Chantry, that wouldn't solve the hatred of mages problem.

Rome wasn't built in a day.
As it took time for the stigma of magic to spread across Thedas, it will take time for its undoing.

Said time will probably be the entirety of the PC's natural lifespan. In the meantime, this still works as just one more argument for the Circles.

It also works as an argument against the Circles. To the point, how can magic be destigmatized if mages are separted from the common man? One of the greatest sources of bias, fear and hatred is ignorance adding onto the "them or us" mindset. Far too often, pro-mages and pro-templars end up arguing despite having very similar ideas because it's either templar or mages and nothing in between.

Take Anders. He worked in Darktown for years for free, treating the refugees wounds, helping them give birth to children and he never asks for coin or any form of payment. In return, those very same non-mages are willing to fight and die to protect him from the templars.

Granted, a mage has to be fully trained, and that'll require a circle, but if you keep mages away from the people all the time, they will never get over their fear of magic.

I'm not arguing that mages should be kept in the Circles all the time. Wynne spent almost a year outside the Circle. Besides, organizations like the Mages Collective would be let in place under my plan in exchange for assisting the new Templar Order where needed.

That's cool. But that leads to a few questions (not criticisms as this does sound a like a good idea.)

One. Who is in charge of policing the mages collective?

Two. Who gives the templars their oversight and make sure they aren't abusing their authority or unneccessarily killing mage apostates/runaways?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...


It also works as an argument against the Circles. To the point, how can magic be destigmatized if mages are separted from the common man? One of the greatest sources of bias, fear and hatred is ignorance adding onto the "them or us" mindset. Far too often, pro-mages and pro-templars end up arguing despite having very similar ideas because it's either templar or mages and nothing in between.

Take Anders. He worked in Darktown for years for free, treating the refugees wounds, helping them give birth to children and he never asks for coin or any form of payment. In return, those very same non-mages are willing to fight and die to protect him from the templars.

Granted, a mage has to be fully trained, and that'll require a circle, but if you keep mages away from the people all the time, they will never get over their fear of magic.

I'm not arguing that mages should be kept in the Circles all the time. Wynne spent almost a year outside the Circle. Besides, organizations like the Mages Collective would be let in place under my plan in exchange for assisting the new Templar Order where needed.

That's cool. But that leads to a few questions (not criticisms as this does sound a like a good idea.)

One. Who is in charge of policing the mages collective?

The reformed, secularized Templar Order. (They don't sound like they need it, though we have only their word on this and some of their quests are shady if you read between the lines.)

Two. Who gives the templars their oversight and make sure they aren't abusing their authority or unneccessarily killing mage apostates/runaways?

Well, this is a hard one. Agents in the field are difficult to watch without modern tech, and even then there's some challenges.

Modern police departments analyze the inside of a recruit's head for a very long time and discover the recruit's past in such detail that the cop has sometimes forgotten the names of some of the past aquaintances that get dug up. And even that's not always enough.

I guess that's as good as it gets, though. And even this is an improvement, from the sound of the Codex. (Assuming I can actually do this, since this is video rather than tabletop.)


Edit: Or did you mean who watches the Templars in the Circle? I was thinking the head Templar and Grand Enchanter could work with a mundane judge with some lawyers, and of course the Head Templar had to go through the nitpicking of his past. It's an undeniable improvement, at least, and would have raised red flags where Meredith and Lambert were concerned.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 08 octobre 2013 - 06:03 .

[dragonflight288]

[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

[quote]dragonflight288 wrote...

[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

[quote]dragonflight288 wrote...


It also works as an argument against the Circles. To the point, how can magic be destigmatized if mages are separted from the common man? One of the greatest sources of bias, fear and hatred is ignorance adding onto the "them or us" mindset. Far too often, pro-mages and pro-templars end up arguing despite having very similar ideas because it's either templar or mages and nothing in between.

Take Anders. He worked in Darktown for years for free, treating the refugees wounds, helping them give birth to children and he never asks for coin or any form of payment. In return, those very same non-mages are willing to fight and die to protect him from the templars.

Granted, a mage has to be fully trained, and that'll require a circle, but if you keep mages away from the people all the time, they will never get over their fear of magic.
[/quote]

I'm not arguing that mages should be kept in the Circles all the time. Wynne spent almost a year outside the Circle. Besides, organizations like the Mages Collective would be let in place under my plan in exchange for assisting the new Templar Order where needed.[/quote]

That's cool. But that leads to a few questions (not criticisms as this does sound a like a good idea.)

One. Who is in charge of policing the mages collective?[/quote]

The reformed, secularized Templar Order.[/quote]

*shrug* Whatever, that ties into the next question anyway.

[quote][quote]
Two. Who gives the templars their oversight and make sure they aren't abusing their authority or unneccessarily killing mage apostates/runaways?
[/quote]

Well, this is a hard one. Agents in the field are difficult to watch without modern tech, and even then there's some challenges.

Modern police departments analyze the inside of a recruit's head for a very long time and discover the recruit's past in such detail that the cop has sometimes forgotten the names of some of the past aquaintances that get dug up. And even that's not always enough.

I guess that's as good as it gets, though. And even this is an improvement, from the sound of the Codex. (Assuming I can actually do this, since this is video rather than tabletop.)
[/quote][/quote]

So...would it be a completely independent organization, the crown, or the Inquisition itself, if they sign a treaty to stay away from mages entirely? Or something a little different?

The templars need oversight, and just like I don't trust mages to watch out for themselves as they may in time become another Tevinter if they get to choose the terms, I don't trust the templars not to revert back to the abuse of power that is a large contributor to the problems going on in thedas.

EDIT: As for the psyche analaysis, I think that's a good idea, depending on who the tester is. If it's the Chantry, they'll ultimately look for the more faithful to their ideas, rather than say the Black Chantry's ideas, and over time may develop back into the current mess, and if it's the mages (who have the most education, or access to tomes of knowledge) then the reverse is also a big danger.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 08 octobre 2013 - 06:03 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

I'm not arguing that mages should be kept in the Circles all the time. Wynne spent almost a year outside the Circle. Besides, organizations like the Mages Collective would be let in place under my plan in exchange for assisting the new Templar Order where needed.

That's cool. But that leads to a few questions (not criticisms as this does sound a like a good idea.)

One. Who is in charge of policing the mages collective?

The reformed, secularized Templar Order.

*shrug* Whatever, that ties into the next question anyway.

By design.

Two. Who gives the templars their oversight and make sure they aren't abusing their authority or unneccessarily killing mage apostates/runaways?

Well, this is a hard one. Agents in the field are difficult to watch without modern tech, and even then there's some challenges.

Modern police departments analyze the inside of a recruit's head for a very long time and discover the recruit's past in such detail that the cop has sometimes forgotten the names of some of the past aquaintances that get dug up. And even that's not always enough.

I guess that's as good as it gets, though. And even this is an improvement, from the sound of the Codex. (Assuming I can actually do this, since this is video rather than tabletop.)

So...would it be a completely independent organization, the crown, or the Inquisition itself, if they sign a treaty to stay away from mages entirely? Or something a little different?

The templars need oversight, and just like I don't trust mages to watch out for themselves as they may in time become another Tevinter if they get to choose the terms, I don't trust the templars not to revert back to the abuse of power that is a large contributor to the problems going on in thedas.

EDIT: As for the psyche analaysis, I think that's a good idea, depending on who the tester is. If it's the Chantry, they'll ultimately look for the more faithful to their ideas, rather than say the Black Chantry's ideas, and over time may develop back into the current mess, and if it's the mages (who have the most education, or access to tomes of knowledge) then the reverse is also a big danger.

If the First New Head Templar and all his advisors and appointed officials all have to go through this process (administered by the PC or the sanest party members originally, then by thus vetted Templars or mages) that should provide some safeguard against corruption. Let's extend that to the First Enchanters too.

Of course, now we're really getting into stuff I'd do in a Tabletop Game. This is just my ideal system: I doubt strongly that I'll be allowed to implement it in its entirety. And in the absence of this vital safeguard, I'll probably see the first two or more systems I build crash down horribly after the death of my PC. (Assuming my first two PCs are both good, which is not entirely a safe one.)

Edit: I still think a reformed Circle is probably the best system all around, though less so in Rivain. But then I'm biased towards the Circle in my head which I might not be able to create in-game. I adknowledge that the status quo ante bellum did not work. It might be that Bioware will give us a better option, and if so I imagine it will look like the picture I just painted. But if the options are a complete mage victory, a complete Templar victory, or the Chantry taking back the mages, that's not a very good set of choices. Though in such a case I suppose I'll have to go with the way things were before, and hope the new Divine keeps a lid on things.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 08 octobre 2013 - 06:57 .