2497 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

The ideal Circle system is the one we got, where Templars didn't abuse power, and the mages didnt try to abstruct the Templars work.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

There is no ideal system in an imperfect world. Someone always bends the rules, or breaks them, or thinks their way is better. There is no flawless Circle idea everyone will agree with. Even the best-meaning organisations have schisms because they're run by real people.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I suppose that is the purpose of the word "ideal". It is an impossibility. But still soemthing worth working towards.

[fchopin]

My opinion is that a mage revolution is a good idea but we should also have a slave revolution at the same time and maybe the slaves and mages could team up and join forces.
Kill anyone who believes in slavery.

That is what i call a good game and not some fade tear.

[Hellion Rex]

Retracted.

Modifié par eluvianix, 08 octobre 2013 - 01:14 .

[Quatre]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

There is no ideal system in an imperfect world. Someone always bends the rules, or breaks them, or thinks their way is better. There is no flawless Circle idea everyone will agree with. Even the best-meaning organisations have schisms because they're run by real people.

This.

[NorDee65]

Basically, any system is as good or bad as the people implementing it. At this point, I am not sure whether the circle before the revolution was inherently a good system badly implemented at times or a really BAD idea. Before that question can be answered (maybe in DAI)  certain aspects of circle/mage lives which seem strange at best are leaving me somewhat puzzled:

1. If demons are actively seeking mages (never mind the question of weak ones), what about all those mages outside the circle, who have not turned into abomonations (what is the ratio of circle mages versus "free" mages turning into abominations?)?

2. We don't know yet for certain whether demons orginally exist as "rage", "hunger", "desire" or "pride" when they come into existence or whether they turn to these basic emotions when the come into contact with mages. So a mage with a hunger for power might attract a "hunger" demon or may even create one (which then finds said mage attractive). But are circle mages due to their circumstances not prone to all those negative emotions? Is therefore the circle a solution to a problem that might not be as blatant otherwise? Kirkwall comes to mind as a place which never ever should have held a circle... (so if circles are organised more "humane" as has been suggested, would abominations lessen?)

3. My reading of the creation of circles was that - aside from the official reason of protecting mages, incl. from themselves - the chantry needed the mages as counter to a) Tevinter and the Qun. The question I hardly dare ask, especially considering certain Templars' tempers, if those threats did not exist, would the mages still exist?

[Lotion Soronarr]

HAHA.

I like it how some people view the rivain Circle as some example of a perfect Circle, despite knowing almost anything about it.

The fact that every single female in the Circle was possesed seemed to not attract any attention.

[Plaintiff]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

HAHA.

I like it how some people view the rivain Circle as some example of a perfect Circle, despite knowing almost anything about it.

The fact that every single female in the Circle was possesed seemed to not attract any attention.

Why should it? Nobody in Rivain had any complaints.

No one was being hurt by it, so who cares?

[Sir JK]

Plaintiff wrote...

Why should it? Nobody in Rivain had any complaints.

No one was being hurt by it, so who cares?

To be fair, Plaintiff. We do not know this... for all we know those young girls could have been dragged from the circles kicking and screaming. Or maybe they were happy to join their sisters among the seers. Point is... we don't know.

The closest we come to a seer is Isabela, who'se mother falsely pretended to be one to scam money out of people. And she does not really shed much more light on it than that.

Modifié par Sir JK, 08 octobre 2013 - 03:38 .

[Plaintiff]

Sir JK wrote...
To be fair, Plaintiff. We do not know this... for all we know those young girls could have been dragged from the circles kicking and screaming. Or maybe they were happy to join their sisters among the seers. Point is... we don't know.

I'm sure it's really hard to stop a tradition that nobody actually wants to participate in.

And even if that were the case, nothing justifies barging into other countries and acting like the world police. The Chantry should never have been allowed to expand into other nations in the first place, when it's based in Orlais and biased in favour of it.

[Xilizhra]

Sir JK wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Why should it? Nobody in Rivain had any complaints.

No one was being hurt by it, so who cares?

To be fair, Plaintiff. We do not know this... for all we know those young girls could have been dragged from the circles kicking and screaming. Or maybe they were happy to join their sisters among the seers. Point is... we don't know.

The closest we come to a seer is Isabela, who'se mother falsely pretended to be one to scam money out of people. And she does not really shed much more light on it than that.

You know what's really amazing?

Her mother was qunari.

[Shadow Fox]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Look, my friend. We all know that spirits are beneficial friendly creatures that would never blow up a building

*sniggers*

[Sir JK]

Plaintiff wrote...

I'm sure it's really hard to stop a tradition that nobody actually wants to participate in.

And even if that were the case, nothing justifies barging into other countries and acting like the world police. The Chantry should never have been allowed to expand into other nations in the first place, when it's based in Orlais and biased in favour of it.

I didn't say nobody wanted it, the Seers is one of the powers that be in Rivain so there's preservation of power if nothing else. But more to the point I just wanted to point out that we do now know there's been no complaints or problems.
It sounds nicer than the current alternative, but we have yet to meet anyone that's actually been involved with it.

We know of their existance and some events involving the seers. Not much else.

As for the latter paragraph... perhaps... but that there was a unitarian movement of Andrastians was fairly inevitable. That it expanded along Maferath's old kingdom (plus Rivain and Anderfels) was also so. That it is focused around Orlais is simply a factor of it's population and military might.
Maybe the world would have been a better place if Drakon had never become emperor, maybe. But something else would have taken the Chantry's place, rest assured.

Xilizhra wrote...
You know what's really amazing?

Her mother was qunari.

Yes, I know. Viddathari, I believe. My interpretation would be that she was a scammer first and converted second.

[Heimdall]

Xilizhra wrote...

Sir JK wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Why should it? Nobody in Rivain had any complaints.

No one was being hurt by it, so who cares?

To be fair, Plaintiff. We do not know this... for all we know those young girls could have been dragged from the circles kicking and screaming. Or maybe they were happy to join their sisters among the seers. Point is... we don't know.

The closest we come to a seer is Isabela, who'se mother falsely pretended to be one to scam money out of people. And she does not really shed much more light on it than that.

You know what's really amazing?

Her mother was qunari.

I was under the impression she scammed before she "found religion" so to speak.

[Silfren]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

HAHA.

I like it how some people view the rivain Circle as some example of a perfect Circle, despite knowing almost anything about it.

The fact that every single female in the Circle was possesed seemed to not attract any attention.

On the contrary, it does attract attention, by virtue of the fact that despite all the Circle women being possessed, Rivain was a) still functional, and the Rivainis themselves didn't mind, two facts that soundly refute the Chantry's line on free mages.

[Heimdall]

Silfren wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

HAHA.

I like it how some people view the rivain Circle as some example of a perfect Circle, despite knowing almost anything about it.

The fact that every single female in the Circle was possesed seemed to not attract any attention.

On the contrary, it does attract attention, by virtue of the fact that despite all the Circle women being possessed, Rivain was a) still functional, and the Rivainis themselves didn't mind, two facts that soundly refute the Chantry's line on free mages.

Those aren't facts, those are conclusions made prematurely.  I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just saying we really need to have a more complete understanding of the Seer's relationship with the circle.

[Xilizhra]

Yes, I know. Viddathari, I believe. My interpretation would be that she was a scammer first and converted second.

I was under the impression she scammed before she "found religion" so to speak.

Maybe so. What we do know is that she sold Isabela into slavery because she wouldn't submit to the Qun.

[Medhia Nox]

@Silfren: And I'm going to bring up again that the Harrowing codex specifically states that, while certainly ludicrous (the opinion of the writer of the Codex), that the Riviani are thought to turn their failed Harrowing students to pigs and eat them.

If we're going to invent conclusions from Codex statements - than this one CLEARLY shows that it's well known that "something" is wrong with the Riviani Circle. Even if it is not pig transformation and pig roasts.

We can't just make conjecture about things that "make sense" in Codex's when it satisfies our argument... and ignore the others. Well, we can - and do, over and over, but we shouldn't if we want to get anywhere close to "truth" on topics we know insanely little about.

Next, we'll see that the Rivaini were horrible cannibal cultists and someones going to start screaming: "Retcon! It clearly states that the Circle was the most perfect place on the planet!"

[Silfren]

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes, I know. Viddathari, I believe. My interpretation would be that she was a scammer first and converted second.

I was under the impression she scammed before she "found religion" so to speak.

Maybe so. What we do know is that she sold Isabela into slavery because she wouldn't submit to the Qun.

Wonder why she didn't simply hand her over for re-education?

Modifié par Silfren, 08 octobre 2013 - 05:41 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The ideal Circle system is the one we got, where Templars didn't abuse power, and the mages didnt try to abstruct the Templars work.

Neither of these stayed true. I'm trying to come up with a system to make that sort of cooperation more likely to happen and for longer, and running into the problem that the means I came up with to do so is unlikely to be given to me in a video game due to inherent limits of the media.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 08 octobre 2013 - 08:12 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Silfren wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes, I know. Viddathari, I believe. My interpretation would be that she was a scammer first and converted second.

I was under the impression she scammed before she "found religion" so to speak.

Maybe so. What we do know is that she sold Isabela into slavery because she wouldn't submit to the Qun.

Wonder why she didn't simply hand her over for re-education?

She was still a scammer, I can only assume. One wonders how Isabela ended up as one.

[Vit246]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The ideal Circle system is the one we got, where Templars didn't abuse power, and the mages didnt try to abstruct the Templars work.

But they did abuse power. And thats why the Circle system under the Chantry and Templars failed in the end.

[dragonflight288]

Vit246 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The ideal Circle system is the one we got, where Templars didn't abuse power, and the mages didnt try to abstruct the Templars work.

But they did abuse power. And thats why the Circle system under the Chantry and Templars failed in the end.

Add into the fact that many of the templars/seekers and chantry officials felt perfectly justified abusing that power.