2497 réponses à ce sujet

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The ideal Circle system is the one we got, where Templars didn't abuse power, and the mages didnt try to abstruct the Templars work.

But they did abuse power. And thats why the Circle system under the Chantry and Templars failed in the end.

Add into the fact that many of the templars/seekers and chantry officials felt perfectly justified abusing that power.

Despite the whole point of the Seekers being to curb that.

[Porenferser]

1. Annihilate Tevinter. Completely.
2. Grant all the decent Mages the country to live in afterwards. There they can do whatever they want, except for holding slaves off course.

[Sir JK]

Xilizhra wrote...

Maybe so. What we do know is that she sold Isabela into slavery because she wouldn't submit to the Qun.

Indeed. And it's still the closest we've ever been to an actual seer.

Which is to say... not very. So we can't really examine the system in detail and determine which system is better.

[Wulfram]

One of the things about the Mage issue is that it's actually two issues.

There's the "Mages will abuse their power" thing. Which I like as a theme because it's a natural outgrowth of the basic premise of their being a bunch of people who are born with supernatural power. This theme is also quite well explored in the world with Tevinter, even if I think it strayed to cartoonish villainy in DA2. The only "problem" with it is that if you have a less than cynical outlook on human nature, then it's fairly easy to dismiss the concern and say that mages should be free.

So you get the other mage issue, which is "mages occasionally turn into ravening monsters and kill loads of people". Which I'm not so keen on as a theme because it's not really a natural out growth of the existence of Mages - instead it seems like it exists because the writers don't think that the "abuses of power" stuff is convincing on it's own. It's also not so well explored in the lore - there are no real examples of societies being torn apart by abominations or anything like that, the nearest you get is perhaps the period between Andraste and the rise of Orlais/the Chantry, and that seems to be more a case of general societal turmoil. But it tends to dominate the debates on the issue because it's arguably the more compelling and certainly the simpler argument to make

Modifié par Wulfram, 08 octobre 2013 - 08:45 .

[Silfren]

Porenferser wrote...

1. Annihilate Tevinter. Completely.
2. Grant all the decent Mages the country to live in afterwards. There they can do whatever they want, except for holding slaves off course.

So basically what you want for the mages is death for the bad ones and exile for the decent ones. 

Modifié par Silfren, 08 octobre 2013 - 08:47 .

[Porenferser]

Silfren wrote...

Porenferser wrote...

1. Annihilate Tevinter. Completely.
2. Grant all the decent Mages the country to live in afterwards. There they can do whatever they want, except for holding slaves off course.

So basically what you want for the mages is death for the bad ones and exile for the decent ones. 

Exactly.
They don't need to be locked up, but letting them live amongst normal people is just too freakin' dangerous.
Ergo, a seperate place to live (where they can be visited off course, or even joined by those willing) = Best solution.

[The Hierophant]

Silfren wrote...

Porenferser wrote...

1. Annihilate Tevinter. Completely.
2. Grant all the decent Mages the country to live in afterwards. There they can do whatever they want, except for holding slaves off course.

So basically what you want for the mages is death for the bad ones and exile for the decent ones. 

It's sounds like the lesser of evils as without the Chantry's protection, they'll be at the mercy of the individual nations who'll use their abilities to war with their neighbors.

[Hellion Rex]

The Hierophant wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Porenferser wrote...

1. Annihilate Tevinter. Completely.
2. Grant all the decent Mages the country to live in afterwards. There they can do whatever they want, except for holding slaves off course.

So basically what you want for the mages is death for the bad ones and exile for the decent ones. 

It's sounds like the lesser of evils as without the Chantry's protection, they'll be at the mercy of the individual nations who'll use their abilities to war with their neighbors.

Just because its the lesser of evils doesn't mean it is the best solutions either.

[Beerfish]

The Hierophant wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Porenferser wrote...

1. Annihilate Tevinter. Completely.
2. Grant all the decent Mages the country to live in afterwards. There they can do whatever they want, except for holding slaves off course.

So basically what you want for the mages is death for the bad ones and exile for the decent ones. 

It's sounds like the lesser of evils as without the Chantry's protection, they'll be at the mercy of the individual nations who'll use their abilities to war with their neighbors.

It will just be the new rise of the tevinters in another name.  The most powerful and ambitious mages will rise to the top just like in old Tevinter and they will sooner or later ruler over the other mages.

[Sir JK]

Wulfram wrote...

One of the things about the Mage issue is that it's actually two issues.

There's the "Mages will abuse their power" thing. Which I like as a theme because it's a natural outgrowth of the basic premise of their being a bunch of people who are born with supernatural power. This theme is also quite well explored in the world with Tevinter, even if I think it strayed to cartoonish villainy in DA2. The only "problem" with it is that if you have a less than cynical outlook on human nature, then it's fairly easy to dismiss the concern and say that mages should be free.

So you get the other mage issue, which is "mages occasionally turn into ravening monsters and kill loads of people". Which I'm not so keen on as a theme because it's not really a natural out growth of the existence of Mages - instead it seems like it exists because the writers don't think that the "abuses of power" stuff is convincing on it's own. It's also not so well explored in the lore - there are no real examples of societies being torn apart by abominations or anything like that, the nearest you get is perhaps the period between Andraste and the rise of Orlais/the Chantry, and that seems to be more a case of general societal turmoil. But it tends to dominate the debates on the issue because it's arguably the more compelling and certainly the simpler argument to make

I agree, Wulfram. It's two issues and I definantely think you nailed the first one correctly.

I'd say that the old one is the trope of hubris however. Those that do play with fire will get burned. The age-old "power has a price". Many settings have some sort of price associated with magic, to punish those that takes water over their heads. This one is older than writing. Here, the price is that of demons. That if you overreach or become complacent with magic, disaster will strike.

Thus neatly covering both aspects of the dangers of power: Abuse and hubris.

The problem of course, is not what it stands for but showing it. Ideally, you should let the player commit it and fall prey to a demon. That one would, more effectively than anything, show us just how dangerous demons may or may not be. Naturally it has certain problems associated with it. Namely, it'd be a game over and you'd essentially have to decieve the player to walk down the path towards it or alternatively make it so easy to see through you cannot take it credibly.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Porenferser wrote...

1. Annihilate Tevinter. Completely.
2. Grant all the decent Mages the country to live in afterwards. There they can do whatever they want, except for holding slaves off course.

In addition to the fact that there's a whole lot of ordinary people there, there's the fact that this means that the legitimate uses of magic are off limits to everyone outside what is now Tevinter. This includes the Joining.

[The Hierophant]

Beerfish wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Porenferser wrote...

1. Annihilate Tevinter. Completely.
2. Grant all the decent Mages the country to live in afterwards. There they can do whatever they want, except for holding slaves off course.

So basically what you want for the mages is death for the bad ones and exile for the decent ones. 

It's sounds like the lesser of evils as without the Chantry's protection, they'll be at the mercy of the individual nations who'll use their abilities to war with their neighbors.

It will just be the new rise of the tevinters in another name.  The most powerful and ambitious mages will rise to the top just like in old Tevinter and they will sooner or later ruler over the other mages.

That depends on their choice of government and if they'll drop the CoM's fraternity system in favor of an autocracy/dictatorship.

They'll need to be separated from the influence of each nation regardless. Without an influential organization to oversee their neutrality the nations will collect and use them as WMDs.

[Wulfram]

Concentrating all the mages in one place seems like a bad way to stop them being a threat. You've just created a major military power with grounds for holding a grudge.

[The Hierophant]

Wulfram wrote...

Concentrating all the mages in one place seems like a bad way to stop them being a threat. You've just created a major military power with grounds for holding a grudge.

Wouldn't this be offset by the existence of the Qunari?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The Hierophant wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Concentrating all the mages in one place seems like a bad way to stop them being a threat. You've just created a major military power with grounds for holding a grudge.

Wouldn't this be offset by the existence of the Qunari?

If it's all of the mages? Not to the right extent. (Never mind the logistics of getting them all there.)

[Medhia Nox]

@Wulfram: Isn't there a Pride demon in Awakening that really addresses your second issue well?

Does it have to be world threatening to be dangerous to people?

-----

While I'm not sure I can disagree with you about the use of demons in DA.

I will disagree about the concept of mages and demonic possession being a poor design (not your exact words).

Warhammer threatens its psykers FAR more - and I actually find it very interesting and well designed. Though - to be fair - the Warp corrupts everyone. But psykers certainly are singled out.

[The Hierophant]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Concentrating all the mages in one place seems like a bad way to stop them being a threat. You've just created a major military power with grounds for holding a grudge.

Wouldn't this be offset by the existence of the Qunari?

If it's all of the mages? Not to the right extent. (Never mind the logistics of getting them all there.)

IIRC it took all of Thedas plus the CoM to stalemate the Qunari during the last war. I doubt the collective CoM alone could overtake the Qun

On the flipside - aside from what you stated in the parantheses another major issue i see with a mass relocation to Tevinter is that it deprives newly discovered mages of local educational institutes and requires poor families to scrounge enough money to send them to Tevinter.

Tbh i don't see any other workable solutions outside of the CoM being protected by an organization with equal influence to the Chantry, or to a lesser degree the CoM members being given their own territory.

[Silfren]

Porenferser wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Porenferser wrote...

1. Annihilate Tevinter. Completely.
2. Grant all the decent Mages the country to live in afterwards. There they can do whatever they want, except for holding slaves off course.

So basically what you want for the mages is death for the bad ones and exile for the decent ones. 

Exactly.
They don't need to be locked up, but letting them live amongst normal people is just too freakin' dangerous.
Ergo, a seperate place to live (where they can be visited off course, or even joined by those willing) = Best solution.

You didn't even TRY to think this one through, did you? 

Any system which forcibly removes mages from their families and exiles them, whether by sending them to a foreign land OR locking them within a tower, is inherently immoral and flawed and NOT GONNA WORK.

[The Hierophant]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Maybe they can wear a certain type of clothing to help distinguish them from mundanes my friends

I doubt this will work If everyone in Thedas are perceptive like Kirkwall's Templars.

[BlueMagitek]

Immorality in Dragon Age? What has this game series come to?!

[LobselVith8]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Maybe so. What we do know is that she sold Isabela into slavery because she wouldn't submit to the Qun.

Don't you support selling Anders to his magister? 

I don't think Anders has a Magister, since he was taken from the Anders and grew up in the Circle of Ferelden.

[The Hierophant]

probably talking about Fenris.