2497 réponses à ce sujet

[BlueMagitek]

I believe he meant Fenris.

[dragonflight288]

BlueMagitek wrote...

I believe he meant Fenris.

I don't support sending Fenris back to Denarius, neither do I share Fenris' opinions on mages and the Circle.

Just my own two cents.

[Daerog]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The ideal Circle system is the one we got, where Templars didn't abuse power, and the mages didnt try to abstruct the Templars work.

The "ideal Circle system" would probably be one where the Templars and mages go back to their duties as originally intended in the initial creation of the Circle, but change the Seekers a bit. Allow mages and Templars to join the Seekers, but initiates into the Seekers have to be nominated by both the Templars and the Circle mages. So, only highly respected mages and Templars would oversee the overall Circle system. Even if someone has 100% support from one side, they need to have majority support of the senior members of the other side to enter the seekers.

They will be three separate groups, with those joining the seekers no longer holding a position in the Circle or Templar Order.

At least, that is what I think would be "ideal."

[Medhia Nox]

If we're talking "Ideals" - I think the ideal system is one where mages have proven that they are capable of self-policing and where Templars are kept on staff to handle malpractice.

One where mages understand the danger they present to society as a whole and do not tolerate petulant misanthropes who think far too highly of themselves to be aware of just how close to the precipice of a Pride demon's gaping maw they're wandering.

One where a modified Harrowing remains in place (though training obviously takes place, I don't see why transparency isn't allowed) - Tranquilization is an option for the willing, and a last resort punishment for the condemned - abominations both beneficial and malign are strictly forbidden (any real spirit would understand why - any demon is just trying to subvert the mage anyway) - and blood magic is punishable by death (not foolish games by stupid First Enchanters).

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 09 octobre 2013 - 02:00 .

[Heimdall]

Medhia Nox wrote...

One where a modified Harrowing remains in place (though training obviously takes place, I don't see why transparency isn't allowed) - Tranquilization is an option for the willing, and a last resort punishment for the condemned - abominations both beneficial and malign are strictly forbidden (any real spirit would understand why - any demon is just trying to subvert the mage anyway) - and blood magic is punishable by death (not foolish games by stupid First Enchanters).

Harrowing aside, these sound like the principles the first circle was likely based on.  Sadly we do not live in an ideal world of ideal men and women.  That's how the current system became the way it was.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Silfren wrote...
You didn't even TRY to think this one through, did you? 

Any system which forcibly removes mages from their families and exiles them, whether by sending them to a foreign land OR locking them within a tower, is inherently immoral and flawed and NOT GONNA WORK.

And any system that doesn't is doubly flawed and won't work either. (Also locking someone up is not immoral)

In other words, there is no way to solve this to satisfaction of everyone.

[Fredward]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
(Also locking someone up is not immoral)

If they did something wrong, sure. Mages don't have to do anything wrong they just have to exist. Of course it's amoral. I can understand the pragmatics of it but don't pretend like it is in any way ethical or moral to lock someone up for what they are not for what they have done.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...
I'm sure it's really hard to stop a tradition that nobody actually wants to participate in.

Learn history Plaintiff.

Ther were plenty of cultures in our history that did some very sick s***  - like ritual sacrifices - because they convinced themselves "it's just the way the world works".
I'm sure the parents of the child that that got sacrificed and it's entrials offered to the sky gods were elated. Adn you know what - apparently they actually were. Even now you can find people brainwashed - like women in some cult giving their daughters to the cult leader, convinced it was an honor.

So yeah. Many in Rivain may very well be convinced that becoming an abomination is an honor, and then when an abomination rampagaes and kills, it's just the gods way of showing off their dissatisfaction.

And even if that were the case, nothing justifies barging into other countries and acting like the world police. The Chantry should never have been allowed to expand into other nations in the first place, when it's based in Orlais and biased in favour of it.

They ARE the world police in Circle matters. All the countries in Thedas acknowledge the Chantry authority

[Sylvius the Mad]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

(Also locking someone up is not immoral)

That alone is an extraordinary claim that warrants some justification.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The reasoning is important. It always is.



Regarding the whole "Rivian Seer" thing...the Pro-mage argument seems to be "if the people of Rivain don't complain, then there is no problem."
Okay. Then, since the people of Qun dont' complain, the quanri and their treatment of mages are not a problem either.
Or - by the same logic - if the Chantry brainwashed all mages ot beliving their place is in the circle or that tranquilisation is a honor, than that would be OK too?

Either the existance of a problem is dependant to people accepting a problem exists, or it's not. You can't have it both ways. So choose.

[Hellion Rex]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The reasoning is important. It always is.



Regarding the whole "Rivian Seer" thing...the Pro-mage argument seems to be "if the people of Rivain don't complain, then there is no problem."
Okay. Then, since the people of Qun dont' complain, the quanri and their treatment of mages are not a problem either.
Or - by the same logic - if the Chantry brainwashed all mages ot beliving their place is in the circle or that tranquilisation is a honor, than that would be OK too?

Either the existance of a problem is dependant to people accepting a problem exists, or it's not. You can't have it both ways. So choose.

Why can we not have it both ways? Why do we have to choose? And the Qunari example is a completely different situation than the Rivaini circle. Try not to compare the two. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

You can't have it both ways, because then you start having dishonest idscussions. You have to set a standard which will apply to all situations. If Rivain isn't a problem, because its populations doesn't complain, then this logic should apply to all other states and situations aswell. Otherwise you are simply playing favorites, and a rational honest discussion will be impossible.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Why can't you have it both ways?

Becasue that's normally called "hypocrisy" or "cherry picking".

[Wulfram]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Why can't you have it both ways?

Becasue that's normally called "hypocrisy" or "cherry picking".

Or recognising that two different situations are different.

That the people involved are OK with it is a point in favour, but it's not overwhelming.  In the case of the Qunari their consent is inherently coerced - since those who do not consent are liable to be "re-educated" until they do, or have their minds destroyed if they don't.  That doesn't seem to apply in Rivain, though of course we don't have much information there  - maybe the seers use blood magic to secure people's loyalty, that would obviously change things.

edit:  Is it hypocritical to oppose Tevinter slavery and support the Circles, when they're both oppressive systems?  Nope.

Modifié par Wulfram, 09 octobre 2013 - 10:12 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Considering that the Circle system isn't slavery no.

The logical fallacy occurs, when people try and villify the Qunari with little available data. Yet claims that Rivain is A.OK. with even less available data. Despite that we actually know that Rivain culture was so alike to Qunari, that the Qunari had an easy time converting Rivain, and even respected it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Wulfram wrote...
Or recognising that two different situations are different.

That the people involved are OK with it is a point in favour, but it's not overwhelming.  In the case of the Qunari their consent is inherently coerced - since those who do not consent are liable to be "re-educated" until they do, or have their minds destroyed if they don't.  That doesn't seem to apply in Rivain, though of course we don't have much information there  - maybe the seers use blood magic to secure people's loyalty, that would obviously change things.

edit:  Is it hypocritical to oppose Tevinter slavery and support the Circles, when they're both oppressive systems?  Nope.

Coerced? Quanri are raised into the Qun.
Who's to say that in Rivian people aren't raised to believe that possesion is AOK? Who needs blood magic?

You call one "re-education", why not the other?

[Wulfram]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Coerced? Quanri are raised into the Qun.
Who's to say that in Rivian people aren't raised to believe that possesion is AOK? Who needs blood magic?

You call one "re-education", why not the other?

Being raised isn't re-education, it's education.  edit:  Though of course not all educations are alike.

Most Qunari are raised in the Qun, yes.  And if they begin to dissent, if they resist their role or want to sleep with someone they love or whatever, then they'll be taken away by the Ben-Hassrath and made into good little Qunari again.  Unless they're too stubborn to accept that, in which case they'll have their minds destroyed.

There's no indication that Rivainis are subject to anything similar.

Modifié par Wulfram, 09 octobre 2013 - 11:33 .

[Bleachrude]

 Relating to the OP there's ALSO the fact that we're looking at ths from a modern-day perspective.

Take for example the belief that families can't have any contact with their mage children. Finn, Connor and other  examples abound that show this not to be true...as Gaider says, most families are terrified of having a mage child AND there's also the fact that it might not be easy for non rich families to actually visit.

Remember, Dagna in origins? From Orzammar to the Circle tower takes 2 weeks and 4 days AT BEST and orzammar on the map is the actual closest location to the circle tower by distance (even redcliffe appears to be further from the tower).

A family working in Denerim can't exactly pick up and visit there child on a weekend....

[Lotion Soronarr]

Wulfram wrote...
Being raised isn't re-education, it's education.  edit:  Though of course not all educations are alike.

Most Qunari are raised in the Qun, yes.  And if they begin to dissent, if they resist their role or want to sleep with someone they love or whatever, then they'll be taken away by the Ben-Hassrath and made into good little Qunari again.  Unless they're too stubborn to accept that, in which case they'll have their minds destroyed.

There's no indication that Rivainis are subject to anything similar.

They don't have to be. Using the exact same method is not relevat.

It is having a majority (trough whatever method) believe that something that is wrong, isn't wrong.

Brainwashing is something that happens to everyone on some level.
Punishment for different behavior or behavior deemed destructive or deviant is common to all cultures.

So tell me, why is The Qunari mages thinking "I'm a dangerous - my palce is being in chains" wrong, but people of Rivain thinking "possesion is cool. If an abomination destroys our entire village, it's becuase the spirits were angry with us."

[Sol Downer]

Wulfram wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Why can't you have it both ways?

Becasue that's normally called "hypocrisy" or "cherry picking".

Or recognising that two different situations are different.

That the people involved are OK with it is a point in favour, but it's not overwhelming.  In the case of the Qunari their consent is inherently coerced - since those who do not consent are liable to be "re-educated" until they do, or have their minds destroyed if they don't.  That doesn't seem to apply in Rivain, though of course we don't have much information there  - maybe the seers use blood magic to secure people's loyalty, that would obviously change things.

edit:  Is it hypocritical to oppose Tevinter slavery and support the Circles, when they're both oppressive systems?  Nope.

It might seem immoral to you, but to the Qunari, that's life. This is just a far-out-there example, but if cannibals eat people for disobeying their rules too many times, you would call that immoral. The cannibals would call that law/discipline.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Understanding different values of moral will always be difficult, even impossible for some, and I guess that is why a lot of people have issues with such subjects. One will almost always believe that one's prefered moral standards are the superior one. If you don't believe that, you should have a really good explanation as to why you subscribe to a morality you see yourself as inferior.

[Beerfish]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
(Also locking someone up is not immoral)

If they did something wrong, sure. Mages don't have to do anything wrong they just have to exist. Of course it's amoral. I can understand the pragmatics of it but don't pretend like it is in any way ethical or moral to lock someone up for what they are not for what they have done.

The danger is just too great, that is the unfortunate thing.  Saying there should only be tight restrictions or punsihment of the mage commits a bad act just does not cut it for the general populace or the chantry/templars or even other mages.  It is cold comfort to execute a bad mage or have templars track down and kill an abomination ro possessed mage after that mage has killed 50 people in a village.

[Hellion Rex]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
Being raised isn't re-education, it's education.  edit:  Though of course not all educations are alike.

Most Qunari are raised in the Qun, yes.  And if they begin to dissent, if they resist their role or want to sleep with someone they love or whatever, then they'll be taken away by the Ben-Hassrath and made into good little Qunari again.  Unless they're too stubborn to accept that, in which case they'll have their minds destroyed.

There's no indication that Rivainis are subject to anything similar.

They don't have to be. Using the exact same method is not relevat.

It is having a majority (trough whatever method) believe that something that is wrong, isn't wrong.

Brainwashing is something that happens to everyone on some level.
Punishment for different behavior or behavior deemed destructive or deviant is common to all cultures.

So tell me, why is The Qunari mages thinking "I'm a dangerous - my palce is being in chains" wrong, but people of Rivain thinking "possesion is cool. If an abomination destroys our entire village, it's becuase the spirits were angry with us."

For one, The Qunari situation is bad, even you must see that. But the thing is, we do not know a whole lot about the Rivaini circles, beyond what codex entries we have been given. We have little knowledge of how often an abomination crops up as a direct result from a seer's spiritual possession. If we had more info about the situation, I would be more inclined to see it your way. But alas, we lack that.

[Medhia Nox]

The Qunari are an excellent example, rare in fantasy literature, of a truly unique and separate species.

There's nothing "alien" about elves and dwarves (and I am fine with that)

Yes, it's perfectly fine - as an upjumped ape who seems hard coded for "special snowflake" individualism - to hate the Qunari mentality.

But that's like hating ants and bees for following a hive mind. You can, of course, no matter how ludicrous it would be. But what you cannot do - is argue the success of the mentality. Hive minds are far... FAR more successful than special snowflake individualism.

The mistake is thinking Qunari are "just like us, but with horns".

Yes, oppose the Qunari - but arguing about them with solely human mentality without trying to use your imagination to theorize what it might be like to evolve not a human - seems like such a silly and futile exercise.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Considering that the Circle system isn't slavery no.

The logical fallacy occurs, when people try and villify the Qunari with little available data. Yet claims that Rivain is A.OK. with even less available data. Despite that we actually know that Rivain culture was so alike to Qunari, that the Qunari had an easy time converting Rivain, and even respected it.

Nonetheless, we have a lot more data about the Qunari and their mages a la DA2. Seeing how the mages were leashed and bound, with their mouths sewn up should really set off some alarm bells. Nonetheless, our knowledge of the sarebaas is hardly complete, and yet it is still more to go and form an opinion on than the Rivaini situation.