2497 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia Nox]

@eluvianix: But, instead of saying: "Well, even after being released that saarebas still believed in the Qun." people turn it into "Because "I" believe it's wrong - that saarebas was just mindwashed and couldn't think for itself!"

That's not using imagination at all... that's imposing a personal calcified world view onto something.

[Hellion Rex]

Medhia Nox wrote...

The Qunari are an excellent example, rare in fantasy literature, of a truly unique and separate species.

There's nothing "alien" about elves and dwarves (and I am fine with that)

Yes, it's perfectly fine - as an upjumped ape who seems hard coded for "special snowflake" individualism - to hate the Qunari mentality.

But that's like hating ants and bees for following a hive mind. You can, of course, no matter how ludicrous it would be. But what you cannot do - is argue the success of the mentality. Hive minds are far... FAR more successful than special snowflake individualism.

The mistake is thinking Qunari are "just like us, but with horns".

Yes, oppose the Qunari - but arguing about them with solely human mentality without trying to use your imagination to theorize what it might be like to evolve not a human - seems like such a silly and futile exercise.

I agree with your statement entirely. What makes them so interesting and dangerous in my perspective, is their "alieness". The Qun, especially to a Western player, seems completely anathema to many of the ideals we uphold in our society. In the game, I feel like that some of the humans, elves, and dwarves try to justify the Qunari's actions from their own racial perspectives, when the Qun is an ideal that may be completely beyond their ability to comprehend or fathom.

[Hellion Rex]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@eluvianix: But, instead of saying: "Well, even after being released that saarebas still believed in the Qun." people turn it into "Because "I" believe it's wrong - that saarebas was just mindwashed and couldn't think for itself!"

That's not using imagination at all... that's imposing a personal calcified world view onto something.

I understand what you are driving at, and I agree. It is just unfathomable to some, perhaps Westerners especially, how a sarebaas would devote him or herself to the Qun so wholeheartedly, even to their deaths.

[Medhia Nox]

@eluvianix: What I find interesting - is how hateful and terrified people are on the BSN of anyone who would even entertain the notion that following orders is a viable way to live.

Even in the West we have military academies and boarding schools - and, of course the actual military - that stress the group over the self. And they're not all - "but only if you think it's a good idea."

[In Exile]

An individualized society should, conceptually, find the qun impossible to relate to. Its a direct challenge to what is basically the conceptual and moral center of all of western society. Even our ideas of rights - at any level - derive from an individual perspective. We conceive of society as a way to cooperate and as a compromise. Even religion - which is a collective in a sense - is personalized and individualized in the west ( e.g. personal relationship to the divine in monotheism).

Now I'm obviously oversimplifying a fair amount, but this is a big reason why I think you see so much resistance to the Qun.

On the other hand, I think that what's alluring to people in the West about the qun isn't the collectivism but rather the absolute sense of purpose it imparts.

[Medhia Nox]

@In Exile: For myself - it's actually opposite. Purpose has never been something I've struggled with - so it's less of a topic I feel the desire to explore in fiction.

However, as I equate collectivism with harmony (in the most idealistic state) - and I equate individuality with disharmony - I am interested in what Bioware has to say about the concept of a race that strives for true Utilitarianism.

The needs of the Qun - outweigh the needs of the individual.

So far, Bioware has presented it as successful - but not without problems. Whereas the individual nations of Thedas are currently unsuccessful - but not without merit.

[Silfren]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Silfren wrote...
You didn't even TRY to think this one through, did you? 

Any system which forcibly removes mages from their families and exiles them, whether by sending them to a foreign land OR locking them within a tower, is inherently immoral and flawed and NOT GONNA WORK.

And any system that doesn't is doubly flawed and won't work either. (Also locking someone up is not immoral)

In other words, there is no way to solve this to satisfaction of everyone.

The hell it isn't. You damn well know that I referred to the practice of taking mages from their families and communities and locking them in a tower for the rest of their life, not for crimes committed but the misfortune of being born a mage.  If you think that's not inherently immoral then just say so, but you don't get to take my statement out of context.

It cannot be said that any system that tries a different method is doubly flawed when no other system has been tried. But nobody is trying to find an ideal solution or a perfect solution, or a solution that is totally 100% backed by all concerned parties.  At least, I'm not, and I don't think any reasonable pro-mages are, either. 

The problem to me seems to be the pro-templar fixation that any solution MUST be totally foolproof, an absolute watertight guarantee against abominations and the use of blood magic, or else it's just not worth bothering with, and this is unreasonable in the extreme.  No method will ever yield those results: even the most oppressively draconian measures in place will STILL mean that sometimes, an abomination is created, or someone, somewhere, uses blood magic for unapproved reasons.  

For me, the idea is to balance freedom and security.  I'm not trying to eliminate dangers, just to minimize them and to have safeguards in place to deal with them when they happen.  I don't let politicians or salespeople scare me into believing that there's a 100% safe and secure solution against crime at the end of the rainbow, if I only support this freedom-eroding measure, or that one, and I see no reason to fall for the same line of sh*t here, either.

Modifié par Silfren, 09 octobre 2013 - 05:39 .

[Maria Caliban]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@eluvianix: But, instead of saying: "Well, even after being released that saarebas still believed in the Qun." people turn it into "Because "I" believe it's wrong - that saarebas was just mindwashed and couldn't think for itself!"

That's not using imagination at all... that's imposing a personal calcified world view onto something.

That scarebas has lived his life in chains, been told he's a thing, and been led around by his handler. Unless I have clear evidence that the Qunari have minds totally unlike humans, I'm comfortable saying that he's the victim of a lifetime of abuse. That he kills himself the second he's free tells me nothing but that the Qun says to kill yourself if you're a free mage.

This is no different than Oreana happily becoming your slave because slavery is all she knows.

[Silfren]

eluvianix wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@eluvianix: But, instead of saying: "Well, even after being released that saarebas still believed in the Qun." people turn it into "Because "I" believe it's wrong - that saarebas was just mindwashed and couldn't think for itself!"

That's not using imagination at all... that's imposing a personal calcified world view onto something.

I understand what you are driving at, and I agree. It is just unfathomable to some, perhaps Westerners especially, how a sarebaas would devote him or herself to the Qun so wholeheartedly, even to their deaths.

For me, what I think about is the fact that people have an innate survival drive.  It takes something extreme to be willing to override that instinct and destroy yourself--not in a moment of self-sacrifice because someone has to die and you're trying to do the noble, heroic thing, but because your religion has told you this is what must be.  It's kind of difficult to look at that scene and not see the result of cult-like brainwashing.  On that point, you're forgetting that there is a clear difference between someone who embraces the Qun as an adult, and those who either are raised within it or forcibly indoctrinated after refusing to submit.  I fully suspect that the Saarebas we saw was one or the other of the latter two.  Hell, the very fact that Bioware uses the term "re-educate" in these terms is a loaded term sure to raise hackles on many people, and it's no accident.

I'm sure that a lot of people are indeed revolted by that because of our Western ideals pertaining to individualism and such, but I don't think you can summarily dismiss it out of hand as nothing more or less than lack of imagination. 

Modifié par Silfren, 09 octobre 2013 - 05:36 .

[leaguer of one]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@eluvianix: But, instead of saying: "Well, even after being released that saarebas still believed in the Qun." people turn it into "Because "I" believe it's wrong - that saarebas was just mindwashed and couldn't think for itself!"

That's not using imagination at all... that's imposing a personal calcified world view onto something.

That scarebas has lived his life in chains, been told he's a thing, and been led around by his handler. Unless I have clear evidence that the Qunari have minds totally unlike humans, I'm comfortable saying that he's the victim of a lifetime of abuse. That he kills himself the second he's free tells me nothing but that the Qun says to kill yourself if you're a free mage.

This is no different than Oreana happily becoming your slave because slavery is all she knows.

That's an unfortionate consept of how belief based on cultur works. But we can't disdan it because it does not line up with what we beleive. Those indivisuals still have a choice to try to go for freedom even in they are brina washed to thing other wise. Fenris is an example of this. At one point of his life he was as blind as Orena till he was shown what freedom is and had the chance to feel what freedom is. The Sarabas was give the chance but declined, unlike Fenris. We can 100% blame how they are raised. They temselve must what to take the first to to freedom otherwise in there minds they will always be slaves.

[Gwydden]

leaguer of one wrote...
That's an unfortionate consept of how belief based on cultur works. But we can't disdan it because it does not line up with what we beleive. Those indivisuals still have a choice to try to go for freedom even in they are brina washed to thing other wise. Fenris is an example of this. At one point of his life he was as blind as Orena till he was shown what freedom is and had the chance to feel what freedom is. The Sarabas was give the chance but declined, unlike Fenris. We can 100% blame how they are raised. They temselve must what to take the first to to freedom otherwise in there minds they will always be slaves.

Fenris wasn't indoctrinated in the belief that his condition was necessary for the greater good, or told over and over that he was a flawed being just because of he was born.

[Medhia Nox]

@Leaguer of One: I actually find it worse than disdain - it's contempt driven by a belief of superiority.

@Maria Caliban: Do you also despise bees? Yes, I'm aware that they Qunari are not at all insect-like... and because they're sentient - they MUST think like humans, but I find that overly simplistic and lacking in any real visualization of possibilities.

And before I'm mislabeled - I do not inherently support the Qun. I would likely oppose it when it came to assimilate me.

But this is fiction - and in my opinion - I'm supposed to be exploring possibilities - simply superimposing my world view on everything all the time is the exact opposite of why I partake in fiction at all.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 09 octobre 2013 - 06:38 .

[Silfren]

Gwydden wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
That's an unfortionate consept of how belief based on cultur works. But we can't disdan it because it does not line up with what we beleive. Those indivisuals still have a choice to try to go for freedom even in they are brina washed to thing other wise. Fenris is an example of this. At one point of his life he was as blind as Orena till he was shown what freedom is and had the chance to feel what freedom is. The Sarabas was give the chance but declined, unlike Fenris. We can 100% blame how they are raised. They temselve must what to take the first to to freedom otherwise in there minds they will always be slaves.

Fenris wasn't indoctrinated in the belief that his condition was necessary for the greater good, or told over and over that he was a flawed being just because of he was born.

No, but we do know that he struggled with the concept of freedom and being able to refuse his master's bidding.  So there was indeed some level of internalized indoctrination.

Modifié par Silfren, 09 octobre 2013 - 06:51 .

[Wulfram]

I consider the Qunari to think in basically human ways because their religion has been portrayed as being capable of crossing racial boundaries, as well as showing "oxmen" who reject it.

And Qunari teachings appear to speak of a society basically like any other.
The Ashkaari walked the streets of his home and saw that all around him were the signs of genius: triumphs of architecture, artistic masterpieces, the palaces of wealthy merchants, libraries, and concert halls. But he also saw signs of misery: the poor, sick, lost, frightened, and the helpless

And even if they did think differently, that wouldn't make their actions in imposing it on others any less abhorrent. There aren't acceptable excuses for slavery, torture and rape.

[Gwydden]

Silfren wrote...
No, but we do know that he struggled with the concept of freedom and being able to refuse his master's bidding.  So there was indeed some level of internalized indoctrination.

Yes, but moral obligation (you have to remain chained for the greater good) still outweighs social obligation (that's your place in society because shut up).

[Beerfish]

The big beef with for me is that #1 They make no real attempt at all to justify the way they live nor to show the benefits of it to many. You get the odd curious person like the Viscounts son that will go out of their way to learn some things but the majority of the Qunari we are exposed to are the Arishok and his soliders and such and they are pathetically bad at relating anything. They simply talk in a very condescending attitude and intimate that you have no idea about us and yet they make zero attempt to properly communicate.

# 2 They are just massive hypocrites in their actions vs what they preach.

[Medhia Nox]

@Beerfish: As you've stated we know nothing about them - and have only really met their military... exactly how do we know they're "massive" hypocrites?

[Gwydden]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Beerfish: As you've stated we know nothing about them - and have only really met their military... exactly how do we know they're "massive" hypocrites?

Their military is suposedly their way to interact with the world, their "diplomats" so to say.

[Fredward]

Beerfish wrote...
The danger is just too great, that is the unfortunate thing.  Saying there should only be tight restrictions or punsihment of the mage commits a bad act just does not cut it for the general populace or the chantry/templars or even other mages.  It is cold comfort to execute a bad mage or have templars track down and kill an abomination ro possessed mage after that mage has killed 50 people in a village.

Which is the pragmatic POV, no? Which I can understand. I don't agree with it, if I was mage I'd happily die rebelling against it. But I can understand it. It is however morally indefensible. The "greater good" argument does not ameliorate the complete and utter injustice of locking someone up for the way they were born. It's sick. Which is why I respect a templar supporter who admits this and argues pragmatism over moralism over one who tries to dress up the current situation as totally copasetic.

[Hellion Rex]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Beerfish wrote...
The danger is just too great, that is the unfortunate thing.  Saying there should only be tight restrictions or punsihment of the mage commits a bad act just does not cut it for the general populace or the chantry/templars or even other mages.  It is cold comfort to execute a bad mage or have templars track down and kill an abomination ro possessed mage after that mage has killed 50 people in a village.

Which is the pragmatic POV, no? Which I can understand. I don't agree with it, if I was mage I'd happily die rebelling against it. But I can understand it. It is however morally indefensible. The "greater good" argument does not ameliorate the complete and utter injustice of locking someone up for the way they were born. It's sick. Which is why I respect a templar supporter who admits this and argues pragmatism over moralism over one who tries to dress up the current situation as totally copasetic.

I agree. I can understand Templars who act on the side of pragmatism as well. I don't have to like it, but I can understand their motivations. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@eluvianix: But, instead of saying: "Well, even after being released that saarebas still believed in the Qun." people turn it into "Because "I" believe it's wrong - that saarebas was just mindwashed and couldn't think for itself!"

That's not using imagination at all... that's imposing a personal calcified world view onto something.

That scarebas has lived his life in chains, been told he's a thing, and been led around by his handler. Unless I have clear evidence that the Qunari have minds totally unlike humans, I'm comfortable saying that he's the victim of a lifetime of abuse. That he kills himself the second he's free tells me nothing but that the Qun says to kill yourself if you're a free mage.

This is no different than Oreana happily becoming your slave because slavery is all she knows.

Isn't all happiness intangible? If the Saarebas' actions was what he found fulfillment and happiness in, who are you to tell him wrong? You might not like it, but his actions harms no one but himself.

[Gwydden]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Isn't all happiness intangible? If the Saarebas' actions was what he found fulfillment and happiness in, who are you to tell him wrong? You might not like it, but his actions harms no one but himself.

I thought the Qunari thought in protecting people from themselves first and foremost? Isn't that the reason they're planning another Jihad on the inferior beliefs of Thedas?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Gwydden wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Isn't all happiness intangible? If the Saarebas' actions was what he found fulfillment and happiness in, who are you to tell him wrong? You might not like it, but his actions harms no one but himself.

I thought the Qunari thought in protecting people from themselves first and foremost? Isn't that the reason they're planning another Jihad on the inferior beliefs of Thedas?

Indeed. And the only way a Saarebas can protect itself and others, from itself would be to be with its Arvaarad, or to die. We don't have to like it or understand it, but you got to have a grudging respect for his own commitment to the idea.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Isn't all happiness intangible? If the Saarebas' actions was what he found fulfillment and happiness in, who are you to tell him wrong? You might not like it, but his actions harms no one but himself.

I thought the Qunari thought in protecting people from themselves first and foremost? Isn't that the reason they're planning another Jihad on the inferior beliefs of Thedas?

Indeed. And the only way a Saarebas can protect itself and others, from itself would be to be with its Arvaarad, or to die. We don't have to like it or understand it, but you got to have a grudging respect for his own commitment to the idea.

Definitely much respect, even though their ability to have so much passion for such a life scares the crap out of me.

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Gwydden wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Isn't all happiness intangible? If the Saarebas' actions was what he found fulfillment and happiness in, who are you to tell him wrong? You might not like it, but his actions harms no one but himself.

I thought the Qunari thought in protecting people from themselves first and foremost? Isn't that the reason they're planning another Jihad on the inferior beliefs of Thedas?

Indeed. And the only way a Saarebas can protect itself and others, from itself would be to be with its Arvaarad, or to die. We don't have to like it or understand it, but you got to have a grudging respect for his own commitment to the idea.

Definitely much respect, even though their ability to have so much passion for such a life scares the crap out of me.

Oh without a doubt. But it is also what fascinates me about them. It is an almost unimaginable commitment for us in our days.