2497 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
As long as the mages have equal input into revising these "restrictions" I would be willing to listen. We are definitely going back to the Circle we just rebelled from. 

Ok, this could be interesting. Let's roleplay, you're the representative of the full mage faction and I am the representative of the full templar faction that is independent from the Chantry. Let's assume that we both have the influence to make what is decided here happen and that we have already agreed that while mages will not be killed or Tranquilized en-mass for this rebellion, they will also not do away with the templars or their authority.

My first demand is the continuation of the forced segregation of mages both due to the fact that, at the moment, we will not have knowledge of the capabilities or level of training of the mages after months without supervision and that, if mages are simply granted leave to live amongst the normal population, they might see this as vindication of their war and look towards the non-magical population as spoils of war.
I am, of course, willing to extend the same rights that existed before this rebellion that allowed Harrowed mages will leave with and without supervision after a certain period of time that will be used let tempers cool down both for the safety of the people and that of the mages.

In return, I am willing to do away with the Right of Annulment. Your turn.

This may not have been towards me, but I'll go along with this.

I would agree to your demand and the forced segregation, but would suggest a slight amendment to it. I would also allow mages to have supervised visits to family members outside the Circle, in the case that those family members still care for their children, when compared to the mages who are abandoned by their families for being mages.

If the mage doesn't have any family that wants the outside of the circle then it's kind of a moot point.

My demand is that mages who are complying with the system itself, be allowed to raise their own children and have the right to marry without special permission. In return, I would be willing to allow the Right of Tranquility to be used as a punishment on mages who turn criminal or become blood mages.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
As long as the mages have equal input into revising these "restrictions" I would be willing to listen. We are definitely going back to the Circle we just rebelled from. 

Ok, this could be interesting. Let's roleplay, you're the representative of the full mage faction and I am the representative of the full templar faction that is independent from the Chantry. Let's assume that we both have the influence to make what is decided here happen and that we have already agreed that while mages will not be killed or Tranquilized en-mass for this rebellion, they will also not do away with the templars or their authority.

My first demand is the continuation of the forced segregation of mages both due to the fact that, at the moment, we will not have knowledge of the capabilities or level of training of the mages after months without supervision and that, if mages are simply granted leave to live amongst the normal population, they might see this as vindication of their war and look towards the non-magical population as spoils of war.
I am, of course, willing to extend the same rights that existed before this rebellion that allowed Harrowed mages will leave with and without supervision after a certain period of time that will be used let tempers cool down both for the safety of the people and that of the mages.

In return, I am willing to do away with the Right of Annulment. Your turn.

Interesting that you assume that you won.

First, the templars will remain separate from the Chantry and be a secular order. Second, the ranks of the templars need to be purged; getting rid of people like Meredith and Alrik is paramount. Third, nonconsensual use of the Rite of Tranquility will be abolished. Fourth, while templars may continue to enforce the law, dealing with mage lawbreakers will require the input of both mage and templar superiors. Finally, the Circles will allow nonmage civilians to settle in villages surrounding the towers and possibly be granted economic incentives to do so; in this way, those family members of mages who wish to remain close may do so.

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: That... is so much more rational than I expected.

As a mage who is anti-rebellion and I would suspect would be in negotiations on behalf of Thedas and not the mages:

I agree that the Templars need to be purged, but so too must every mage who acted as a ringleader in the rebellion and any mage held for acts of crimes against humanity. Also - if Tranquility were to be abolished - blood magic must continue to remain banned and punishable by death.

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: That... is so much more rational than I expected.

As a mage who is anti-rebellion and I would suspect would be in negotiations on behalf of Thedas and not the mages:

I agree that the Templars need to be purged, but so too must every mage who acted as a ringleader in the rebellion and any mage held for acts of crimes against humanity. Also - if Tranquility were to be abolished - blood magic must continue to remain banned and punishable by death.

Oh, believe me, I'd prefer to wipe out the templars, but I must go along with the premise of the exercise.

Also, "Thedas" isn't a side in this, it's mages vs. templars, who are both a part of Thedas. Pick a side if you want to join, otherwise it's weighting the negotiating table.

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
As long as the mages have equal input into revising these "restrictions" I would be willing to listen. We are definitely going back to the Circle we just rebelled from. 

Ok, this could be interesting. Let's roleplay, you're the representative of the full mage faction and I am the representative of the full templar faction that is independent from the Chantry. Let's assume that we both have the influence to make what is decided here happen and that we have already agreed that while mages will not be killed or Tranquilized en-mass for this rebellion, they will also not do away with the templars or their authority.

My first demand is the continuation of the forced segregation of mages both due to the fact that, at the moment, we will not have knowledge of the capabilities or level of training of the mages after months without supervision and that, if mages are simply granted leave to live amongst the normal population, they might see this as vindication of their war and look towards the non-magical population as spoils of war.
I am, of course, willing to extend the same rights that existed before this rebellion that allowed Harrowed mages will leave with and without supervision after a certain period of time that will be used let tempers cool down both for the safety of the people and that of the mages.

In return, I am willing to do away with the Right of Annulment. Your turn.

Xilizhra summed up what I believe very well.

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
This may not have been towards me, but I'll go along with this.

I would agree to your demand and the forced segregation, but would suggest a slight amendment to it. I would also allow mages to have supervised visits to family members outside the Circle, in the case that those family members still care for their children, when compared to the mages who are abandoned by their families for being mages.

If the mage doesn't have any family that wants the outside of the circle then it's kind of a moot point.

Perfectly acceptable. We may even look into escorting mages to families who just don't have the means for a visit but only on the condition that unhabited areas around Circles are completely and forever in the hands of the Templar Order who will determine what can and can't be done with it. This includes the settling of people.
The purpose of this is to prevent the creation of cities that are centered around Circles of Magi and may come to compete with other cities. This could easily lead to mages becoming elites in these cities which would be another step towards Tevinter.
(this would, of course, require the approval of monarchs but I'm assuming they would accept it if it meant the end of hostilities)

My demand is that mages who are complying with the system itself, be allowed to raise their own children and have the right to marry without special permission. In return, I would be willing to allow the Right of Tranquility to be used as a punishment on mages who turn criminal or become blood mages.

There is no reason mages shouldn't be married if they want to but I'm hesitant on allowing unchecked reproductions because the Circle's numbers are constantly being replenished by mages born outside of the Circle and if magical births are encouraged, you could have the numbers to force your point of view on us Templars.
Plus, there is always the possibility of non-mages being born to mage couples which would lead to us keeping a normal childhood away from the children needlessly and it would also severely hamper their ability to provide for themselves once they reach adulthood because they will not have been able to learn a trade from their parents.

The Right of Tranquility is a mercy. We can just as easily kill criminals and blood mages which would, at the same time, deprive the Circle from its main source of money.
If you can come up with solutions to the problems I raised above or offer something more valuable to the Templar Order, I might  consider it but, at the moment, this agreement is just not appealing.

Modifié par MisterJB, 10 octobre 2013 - 05:41 .

[MisterJB]

eluvianix wrote...
Xilizhra summed up what I believe very well.

I don't read Xilizhra's posts. You're welcome to give your point of view, tough.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Xilizhra summed up what I believe very well.

I don't read Xilizhra's posts. You're welcome to give your point of view, tough.

You're not much for negotiation, are you?

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Xilizhra summed up what I believe very well.

I don't read Xilizhra's posts. You're welcome to give your point of view, tough.

What I believe about the Circle situation is as follows:
1. The templars become secular from the Chantry entirely.
2. While the templars are still in charge of enforcing laws regarding magic, both mages and these templars have a say in any and all of these restrictions and regulations.
3. Work on purging the current ranks of templars that include the hardcore zealots and extremists. What to do with the more radical mages is up for the discussion.
4. Work on the Rite of Tranquility. Research must be pursued that can find a way to take away a mages magic without rendering them entirely emotionless.

As for how to deal with mages and their family situation, I am not entirely what will work best in the grand scheme of things.

Modifié par eluvianix, 10 octobre 2013 - 05:50 .

[cjones91]

MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
This may not have been towards me, but I'll go along with this.

I would agree to your demand and the forced segregation, but would suggest a slight amendment to it. I would also allow mages to have supervised visits to family members outside the Circle, in the case that those family members still care for their children, when compared to the mages who are abandoned by their families for being mages.

If the mage doesn't have any family that wants the outside of the circle then it's kind of a moot point.

Perfectly acceptable. We may even look into escorting mages to families who just don't have the means for a visit but only on the condition that unhabited areas around Circles are completely and forever in the hands of the Templar Order who will determine what can and can't be done with it. This includes the settling of people.
The purpose of this is to prevent the creation of cities that are centered around Circles of Magi and may come to compete with other cities. This could easily lead to mages becoming elites in these cities which would be another step towards Tevinter.
(this would, of course, require the approval of monarchs but I'm assuming they would accept it if it meant the end of hostilities)

My demand is that mages who are complying with the system itself, be allowed to raise their own children and have the right to marry without special permission. In return, I would be willing to allow the Right of Tranquility to be used as a punishment on mages who turn criminal or become blood mages.

There is no reason mages shouldn't be married if they want to but I'm hesitant on allowing unchecked reproductions because the Circle's numbers are constantly being replenished by mages born outside of the Circle and if magical births are encouraged, you could have the numbers to force your point of view on us Templars.
Plus, there is always the possibility of non-mages being born to mage couples which would lead to us keeping a normal childhood away from the children needlessly and it would also severely hamper their ability to provide for themselves once they reach adulthood because they will not have been able to learn a trade from their parents.

The Right of Tranquility is a mercy. We can just as easily kill criminals and blood mages which would, at the same time, deprive the Circle from its main source of money.
If you can come up with solutions to the problems I raised above or offer something more valuable to the Templar Order, I might  consider it but, at the moment, this agreement is just not appealing.

Uh,I just want to drop in and say mages should be allowed to have their own system of commerce.In the real world people provide better services than others and I don't see why mages should be excluded from running their own markets just because they may compete with other cities.

Second if a mage has a child then they should'nt be separated regardless if they have magic or not,obviously if the mage is unfit to care for the child then the templars need to remove them.

Third you assume mages will even want to enforce their own views on others if their numbers grew which is paranoid thinking and implies all mages think the same or want the same things.

[Hellion Rex]

cjones91 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
This may not have been towards me, but I'll go along with this.

I would agree to your demand and the forced segregation, but would suggest a slight amendment to it. I would also allow mages to have supervised visits to family members outside the Circle, in the case that those family members still care for their children, when compared to the mages who are abandoned by their families for being mages.

If the mage doesn't have any family that wants the outside of the circle then it's kind of a moot point.

Perfectly acceptable. We may even look into escorting mages to families who just don't have the means for a visit but only on the condition that unhabited areas around Circles are completely and forever in the hands of the Templar Order who will determine what can and can't be done with it. This includes the settling of people.
The purpose of this is to prevent the creation of cities that are centered around Circles of Magi and may come to compete with other cities. This could easily lead to mages becoming elites in these cities which would be another step towards Tevinter.
(this would, of course, require the approval of monarchs but I'm assuming they would accept it if it meant the end of hostilities)

My demand is that mages who are complying with the system itself, be allowed to raise their own children and have the right to marry without special permission. In return, I would be willing to allow the Right of Tranquility to be used as a punishment on mages who turn criminal or become blood mages.

There is no reason mages shouldn't be married if they want to but I'm hesitant on allowing unchecked reproductions because the Circle's numbers are constantly being replenished by mages born outside of the Circle and if magical births are encouraged, you could have the numbers to force your point of view on us Templars.
Plus, there is always the possibility of non-mages being born to mage couples which would lead to us keeping a normal childhood away from the children needlessly and it would also severely hamper their ability to provide for themselves once they reach adulthood because they will not have been able to learn a trade from their parents.

The Right of Tranquility is a mercy. We can just as easily kill criminals and blood mages which would, at the same time, deprive the Circle from its main source of money.
If you can come up with solutions to the problems I raised above or offer something more valuable to the Templar Order, I might  consider it but, at the moment, this agreement is just not appealing.

Uh,I just want to drop in and say mages should be allowed to have their own system of commerce.In the real world people provide better services than others and I don't see why mages should be excluded from running their own markets just because they may compete with other cities.

Second if a mage has a child then they should'nt be separated regardless if they have magic or not,obviously if the mage is unfit to care for the child then the templars need to remove them.

Third you assume mages will even want to enforce their own views on others if their numbers grew which is paranoid thinking and implies all mages think the same or want the same things.

You bring up some good points as well. Nice post.

[leaguer of one]

Xilizhra wrote...


Interesting that you assume that you won.

First, the templars will remain separate from the Chantry and be a secular order. Second, the ranks of the templars need to be purged; getting rid of people like Meredith and Alrik is paramount. Third, nonconsensual use of the Rite of Tranquility will be abolished. Fourth, while templars may continue to enforce the law, dealing with mage lawbreakers will require the input of both mage and templar superiors. Finally, the Circles will allow nonmage civilians to settle in villages surrounding the towers and possibly be granted economic incentives to do so; in this way, those family members of mages who wish to remain close may do so.

...Oh my god..... You win the topic. I have looked at you as an extreme ratical pro mage for so long that when you make such a logical point it dumb founds me.

I agree with everything you just said.

[Hellion Rex]

leaguer of one wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...


Interesting that you assume that you won.

First, the templars will remain separate from the Chantry and be a secular order. Second, the ranks of the templars need to be purged; getting rid of people like Meredith and Alrik is paramount. Third, nonconsensual use of the Rite of Tranquility will be abolished. Fourth, while templars may continue to enforce the law, dealing with mage lawbreakers will require the input of both mage and templar superiors. Finally, the Circles will allow nonmage civilians to settle in villages surrounding the towers and possibly be granted economic incentives to do so; in this way, those family members of mages who wish to remain close may do so.

...Oh my god..... You win the topic. I have looked at you as an extreme ratical pro mage for so long that when you make such a logical point it dumb founds me.

I agree with everything you just said.

Celebration?

[Xilizhra]

leaguer of one wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...


Interesting that you assume that you won.

First, the templars will remain separate from the Chantry and be a secular order. Second, the ranks of the templars need to be purged; getting rid of people like Meredith and Alrik is paramount. Third, nonconsensual use of the Rite of Tranquility will be abolished. Fourth, while templars may continue to enforce the law, dealing with mage lawbreakers will require the input of both mage and templar superiors. Finally, the Circles will allow nonmage civilians to settle in villages surrounding the towers and possibly be granted economic incentives to do so; in this way, those family members of mages who wish to remain close may do so.

...Oh my god..... You win the topic. I have looked at you as an extreme ratical pro mage for so long that when you make such a logical point it dumb founds me.

I agree with everything you just said.

Thank you. I have put thought into the future beyond just "win the war," fear not.

[leaguer of one]

eluvianix wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...


Interesting that you assume that you won.

First, the templars will remain separate from the Chantry and be a secular order. Second, the ranks of the templars need to be purged; getting rid of people like Meredith and Alrik is paramount. Third, nonconsensual use of the Rite of Tranquility will be abolished. Fourth, while templars may continue to enforce the law, dealing with mage lawbreakers will require the input of both mage and templar superiors. Finally, the Circles will allow nonmage civilians to settle in villages surrounding the towers and possibly be granted economic incentives to do so; in this way, those family members of mages who wish to remain close may do so.

...Oh my god..... You win the topic. I have looked at you as an extreme ratical pro mage for so long that when you make such a logical point it dumb founds me.

I agree with everything you just said.

Celebration?

Only when Xil stated happens in game.

[MisterJB]

eluvianix wrote...
1. The templars become secular from the Chantry entirely.

Assuming they can become a self-sufficient organization, I don't see any reason not to.

2. While the templars are still in charge of enforcing laws regarding magic, both mages and these templars have a say in any and all of these restrictions and regulations.

That's too vague. I don't disagree with the principle behind it but it's not as if this principle didn't exist in the old Circle system.
Specifics, please.

3. Work on purging the current ranks of templars that include the hardcore zealots and extremists. What to do with the more radical mages is up for the discussion.

Excuse me? So, we are going to be conducting a witch hunt for "hardcore zealots"; and I can only assume they will be judged by your standards rather than ours; but, somehow, what is to be done to extremists mages is under discussion?
Reciprocity, please. And the templars have a right to have a say in these trials.
I'm assuming there will be a trial, right? Not just mages going "this one is really mean, kill him."

4. Work on the Rite of Tranquility. Research must be pursued that can find a way to take away a mages magic without rendering them entirely emotionless.

No argument there for me so long as it's "work on" rather than "ban".

Modifié par MisterJB, 10 octobre 2013 - 05:59 .

[leaguer of one]

Xilizhra wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...


Interesting that you assume that you won.

First, the templars will remain separate from the Chantry and be a secular order. Second, the ranks of the templars need to be purged; getting rid of people like Meredith and Alrik is paramount. Third, nonconsensual use of the Rite of Tranquility will be abolished. Fourth, while templars may continue to enforce the law, dealing with mage lawbreakers will require the input of both mage and templar superiors. Finally, the Circles will allow nonmage civilians to settle in villages surrounding the towers and possibly be granted economic incentives to do so; in this way, those family members of mages who wish to remain close may do so.

...Oh my god..... You win the topic. I have looked at you as an extreme ratical pro mage for so long that when you make such a logical point it dumb founds me.

I agree with everything you just said.

Thank you. I have put thought into the future beyond just "win the war," fear not.

Winning is not what matters. It's the willingness of colaberation. This conflict can be won with no side winning or losing.

[leaguer of one]

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
1. The templars become secular from the Chantry entirely.

Assuming they can become a self-sufficient organization, I don't see any reason not to.

2. While the templars are still in charge of enforcing laws regarding magic, both mages and these templars have a say in any and all of these restrictions and regulations.

That's too vague. I don't disagree with the principle behind it but it's not as if this principle didn't exist in the old Circle system.
Specifics, please.

3. Work on purging the current ranks of templars that include the hardcore zealots and extremists. What to do with the more radical mages is up for the discussion.

Excuse me? So, we are going to be conducting a witch hunt for "hardcore zealots"; and I can only assume they will be judged by your standards rather than ours; but, somehow, what is to be done to extremists mages is under discussion?
Reciprocity, please. And the templars have a right to have a say in these trials.
I'm assuming there will be a trial, right? Not just mages going "this one is really mean, kill him."

4. Work on the Rite of Tranquility. Research must be pursued that can find a way to take away a mages magic without rendering them entirely emotionless.

No argument there for me so long as it's "work on" rather than "ban".

1. Of couse they can. If a mae township is made and they can sell and make product then it can happen.

2.It mean Templar are not Judge and jury alone. Mages must be a part of it. Even the mages will help with hunting rogue mages.

3.But it's a must. The cause of the problem is this paranoia and hate both sides have. How can you have some who is to guard and protect mages from themselves and others if they are too blinded by hate and fear to do so?

[Xilizhra]

Winning is not what matters. It's the willingness of colaberation. This conflict can be won with no side winning or losing.

We shall see.

Also, if other people liked my plan, it'd probably speed up this conversation if someone asked JB to unblock me or whatever, so we can speak directly.

[cjones91]

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
1. The templars become secular from the Chantry entirely.

Assuming they can become a self-sufficient organization, I don't see any reason not to.

2. While the templars are still in charge of enforcing laws regarding magic, both mages and these templars have a say in any and all of these restrictions and regulations.

That's too vague. I don't disagree with the principle behind it but it's not as if this principle didn't exist in the old Circle system.
Specifics, please.

3. Work on purging the current ranks of templars that include the hardcore zealots and extremists. What to do with the more radical mages is up for the discussion.

Excuse me? So, we are going to be conducting a witch hunt for "hardcore zealots"; and I can only assume they will be judged by your standards rather than ours; but, somehow, what is to be done to extremists mages is under discussion?
Reciprocity, please. And the templars have a right to have a say in these trials.
I'm assuming there will be a trial, right? Not just mages going "this one is really mean, kill him."

4. Work on the Rite of Tranquility. Research must be pursued that can find a way to take away a mages magic without rendering them entirely emotionless.

No argument there for me so long as it's "work on" rather than "ban".

Both sides need to root out the extremists in their ranks IMO.

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: Well - then I'd be a mage siding with the Templars on this "negotiation". Seeing as I've mentioned nearly all of your requests in posts about what I would do were I do suss out this mess of a rebellion.. I have very little to disagree with.

However...

- blood magic remains permanently banned and punishable by death.

- The mage ringleaders and any mages guilty of crimes against the citizenry of Thedas should equally be "purged" in the same manner befitting the Templars of the same crimes (death).

- Abominations and communication with demons also remains forbidden and punishable by death.

[cjones91]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: Well - then I'd be a mage siding with the Templars on this "negotiation". Seeing as I've mentioned nearly all of your requests in posts about what I would do were I do suss out this mess of a rebellion.. I have very little to disagree with.

However...

- blood magic remains permanently banned and punishable by death.

- The mage ringleaders and any mages guilty of crimes against the citizenry of Thedas should equally be "purged" in the same manner befitting the Templars of the same crimes (death).

- Abominations and communication with demons also remains forbidden and punishable by death.

Unfortunately you can't prevent demons from contacting mages willingly or not.

[ScarMK]

cjones91 wrote...

Unfortunately you can't prevent demons from contacting mages willingly or not.

I'm fairly certain he means mages going out of their way to hunt down a demon and converse with them.

Modifié par ScarMK, 10 octobre 2013 - 06:17 .

[Hellion Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

Winning is not what matters. It's the willingness of colaberation. This conflict can be won with no side winning or losing.

We shall see.

Also, if other people liked my plan, it'd probably speed up this conversation if someone asked JB to unblock me or whatever, so we can speak directly.

He had the nerve to actually block you? Whether he disagrees with you or not is irrelevant, blocking you is kind of rude.

[Porenferser]

Silfren wrote...

Porenferser wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Porenferser wrote...

1. Annihilate Tevinter. Completely.
2. Grant all the decent Mages the country to live in afterwards. There they can do whatever they want, except for holding slaves off course.

So basically what you want for the mages is death for the bad ones and exile for the decent ones. 

Exactly.
They don't need to be locked up, but letting them live amongst normal people is just too freakin' dangerous.
Ergo, a seperate place to live (where they can be visited off course, or even joined by those willing) = Best solution.

You didn't even TRY to think this one through, did you? 

Any system which forcibly removes mages from their families and exiles them, whether by sending them to a foreign land OR locking them within a tower, is inherently immoral and flawed and NOT GONNA WORK.

Like i said, those who are willing can join them, including their families.