2497 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: Well - then I'd be a mage siding with the Templars on this "negotiation". Seeing as I've mentioned nearly all of your requests in posts about what I would do were I do suss out this mess of a rebellion.. I have very little to disagree with.

However...

- blood magic remains permanently banned and punishable by death.

- The mage ringleaders and any mages guilty of crimes against the citizenry of Thedas should equally be "purged" in the same manner befitting the Templars of the same crimes (death).

- Abominations and communication with demons also remains forbidden and punishable by death.

1. Simple practice is not a capital crime if it harms no one, so I'd consider that unjust regardless of whether this was about mages or not. So no.

2. I'm one of these ringleaders, so if you want to enforce this, try and kill me now.

3. Abominations are insane horrors to begin with, so that'll more or less solve itself.

He had the nerve to actually block you? Whether he disagrees with you or not is irrelevant, blocking you is kind of rude.

I suppose it's possible that he's just metaphorically sticking his fingers in his ears and going "la-la-la-la-laaa," but it's sort of an impediment to discussion regardless.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 10 octobre 2013 - 06:21 .

[Medhia Nox]

Is blocking even possible?

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Is blocking even possible?

I honestly don't know.

[Medhia Nox]

1. Cutting yourself is self-harm, whether you're a sadist or not.

2. Then you're request for purging the templars must also contain concessions.

3. That's not an agreement. Agreeing to this would essentially agree with the punishment of the Rivain Circle (without Annulment - putting to death only those who have actually taken on spirits).

[Hellion Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

Is blocking even possible?

I honestly don't know.

You go to a users profile. There is a button that says block.

[Hellion Rex]

Medhia Nox wrote...

1. Cutting yourself is self-harm, whether you're a sadist or not.

2. Then you're request for purging the templars must also contain concessions.

3. That's not an agreement. Agreeing to this would essentially agree with the punishment of the Rivain Circle (without Annulment - putting to death only those who have actually taken on spirits).

Is self harm an offense worthy of punishing by death though?

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

1. Cutting yourself is self-harm, whether you're a sadist or not.

2. Then you're request for purging the templars must also contain concessions.

3. That's not an agreement. Agreeing to this would essentially agree with the punishment of the Rivain Circle (without Annulment - putting to death only those who have actually taken on spirits).

1. It's also not capital. I don't even believe in the death penalty, IRL or otherwise.

2. I imagine. Any who've violated their charter to protect mages as well as others.

3. And I will absolutely never agree with that.

[Hellion Rex]

Medhia Nox wrote...

1. Cutting yourself is self-harm, whether you're a sadist or not.

2. Then you're request for purging the templars must also contain concessions.

3. That's not an agreement. Agreeing to this would essentially agree with the punishment of the Rivain Circle (without Annulment - putting to death only those who have actually taken on spirits).

I would not agree to number 3. The Rivaini Circle was doing just fine, and we have no proof to demonstrate otherwise.

[thats1evildude]

Well, it's a moot point, as the Circle at Rivain was annulled.

[leaguer of one]

Xilizhra wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: Well - then I'd be a mage siding with the Templars on this "negotiation". Seeing as I've mentioned nearly all of your requests in posts about what I would do were I do suss out this mess of a rebellion.. I have very little to disagree with.

However...

- blood magic remains permanently banned and punishable by death.

- The mage ringleaders and any mages guilty of crimes against the citizenry of Thedas should equally be "purged" in the same manner befitting the Templars of the same crimes (death).

- Abominations and communication with demons also remains forbidden and punishable by death.

1. Simple practice is not a capital crime if it harms no one, so I'd consider that unjust regardless of whether this was about mages or not. So no.

2. I'm one of these ringleaders, so if you want to enforce this, try and kill me now.

3. Abominations are insane horrors to begin with, so that'll more or less solve itself.

He had the nerve to actually block you? Whether he disagrees with you or not is irrelevant, blocking you is kind of rude.

I suppose it's possible that he's just metaphorically sticking his fingers in his ears and going "la-la-la-la-laaa," but it's sort of an impediment to discussion regardless.

Ok...This is the thing we are going to be split on. I don't think blood magic should be studied at all and pro enforcing that. If even the dalish are ageinst it that it clear that it should not be touched. It's inheritly dangerous. Blood mage is the ak 47 of the magic world.

[Medhia Nox]

Concerning blood magic - prohibited, study with special permission, practice by self-mutilation punishable by imprisonment - practice of sacrifice punishable by death or tranquilization.

That hardly leaves any ringleaders of the Templars safe from your wrath. I don't agree with them and would gladly put the ringleaders of BOTH sides to death - but, since you've forced me to chose the Templars - I must also request that whatever is leveled against the Templars is ALSO leveled against the mages. You ARE searching for equality after all.... yes? Equality was supposidly the platform from which so much outrage at injustice was leveled... unless, that's not the case at all.. 

I would not, even as a mage, ever bend to agreeing to allowing collusion between Fade entities and mages. Ever.

So - for my end, I believe we would be at a wall.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 10 octobre 2013 - 06:46 .

[Hellion Rex]

thats1evildude wrote...

Well, it's a moot point, as the Circle at Rivain was annulled.

That is true as well.

[Medhia Nox]

The comment about the Rivain circle would be to prevent other Circles from becoming a Fade entity cult.. and I did state that only abominations would be put down (as an abomination is anyone that communes with a Fade entity unless I am mistaken). I am not talking about sanctioning future Annulments... Rite of Annulement can be utterly destroyed as far as I'm concerned.

[Xilizhra]

Concerning blood magic - prohibited, study with special permission, practice by self-mutilation punishable by imprisonment - practice of sacrifice punishable by death or tranquilization.

Tranquility's abolished and I won't do the death penalty. But it's possible something might be worked out with temporary Tranquility... maybe.

That hardly leaves any ringleaders of the Templars safe from your wrath. I don't agree with them and would gladly put the ringleaders of BOTH sides to death - but, since you've forced me to chose the Templars - I must also request that whatever is leveled against the Templars is ALSO leveled against the mages. You ARE searching for equality after all.... yes?

I'm not killing them, I'm ejecting them from the Templar Order. And if you want equality... well, would you be asking for the ringleaders of the mage rebellion to be ejected from the Circle and to be free apostates?

I would not, even as a mage, ever bend to agreeing to allowing collusion between Fade entities and mages. Ever.

I refuse to make a judgment until we can assess Rivain more closely without making a priori conclusions.

[Hellion Rex]

leaguer of one wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: Well - then I'd be a mage siding with the Templars on this "negotiation". Seeing as I've mentioned nearly all of your requests in posts about what I would do were I do suss out this mess of a rebellion.. I have very little to disagree with.

However...

- blood magic remains permanently banned and punishable by death.

- The mage ringleaders and any mages guilty of crimes against the citizenry of Thedas should equally be "purged" in the same manner befitting the Templars of the same crimes (death).

- Abominations and communication with demons also remains forbidden and punishable by death.

1. Simple practice is not a capital crime if it harms no one, so I'd consider that unjust regardless of whether this was about mages or not. So no.

2. I'm one of these ringleaders, so if you want to enforce this, try and kill me now.

3. Abominations are insane horrors to begin with, so that'll more or less solve itself.

He had the nerve to actually block you? Whether he disagrees with you or not is irrelevant, blocking you is kind of rude.

I suppose it's possible that he's just metaphorically sticking his fingers in his ears and going "la-la-la-la-laaa," but it's sort of an impediment to discussion regardless.

Ok...This is the thing we are going to be split on. I don't think blood magic should be studied at all and pro enforcing that. If even the dalish are ageinst it that it clear that it should not be touched. It's inheritly dangerous. Blood mage is the ak 47 of the magic world.

I agree in the sense that the end of the day, blood magic is the trickiest subject to address. But I am on the opposite side, I only advocate blood magic as a way to augment my own magic, not communion with demons.

[Silfren]

Porenferser wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Porenferser wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Porenferser wrote...

1. Annihilate Tevinter. Completely.
2. Grant all the decent Mages the country to live in afterwards. There they can do whatever they want, except for holding slaves off course.

So basically what you want for the mages is death for the bad ones and exile for the decent ones. 

Exactly.
They don't need to be locked up, but letting them live amongst normal people is just too freakin' dangerous.
Ergo, a seperate place to live (where they can be visited off course, or even joined by those willing) = Best solution.

You didn't even TRY to think this one through, did you? 

Any system which forcibly removes mages from their families and exiles them, whether by sending them to a foreign land OR locking them within a tower, is inherently immoral and flawed and NOT GONNA WORK.

Like i said, those who are willing can join them, including their families.

So your grand and wonderful solution is to oust mages from their homes, and deport them.  You don't see that this is just as problematic?  You're ridding nations of an extremely valuable resource--mages are what keep the qunari at bay, don't forget, but you are also concentrating all the mages in one area.  I would think that anyone who thinks that mages are dangerous and are liable to become the next Tevinter would be automatically suspicious of such a plan.  Never mind that your idea actually involves the slaughter of more than just the magisters of Tevinter, but all the plain folk that live in the area, too.  So if this was actually what you thought would be a workable plan, a good idea, you really need to get your butt back to the drawing board and come up with a better one.

Modifié par Silfren, 10 octobre 2013 - 09:21 .

[Medhia Nox]

SO, you're saying it's alright to sacrifice another human being - and all you get is "temporary Tranquility"? That doesn't exactly show interest in the well being of others.

You would just want to eject the ringleaders? You're asking for more conflict - but so be it. Then yes, mage ringleaders are forever to be expunged from the Circle and all future policies to determine the well being of mages.

It's not Rivain that I'm arguing about. If there are signs of collusion between Fade Spirits and mages - would exorcism (it's possible in the DA Lore) - and temporary Tranquility be acceptable to you?

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 10 octobre 2013 - 06:55 .

[Xilizhra]

SO, you're saying it's alright to sacrifice another human being - and all you get is "temporary Tranquility"? That doesn't exactly show interest in the well being of others.

Well, I suppose you could imprison them for longer periods of time. But I'm mostly interested in rehabilitation.

You would just want to eject the ringleaders? You're asking for more conflict - but so be it. Then yes, mage ringleaders are forever to be expunged from the Circle and all future policies to determine the well being of mages.

Quite frankly, it's too late for that, as I'm already here and have no intention of leaving. The causes of the mages and templars are not and never were morally equivalent, ever since the Chantry let the mages go and the templars betrayed it to chase after them.

It's not Rivain that I'm arguing about. If there are signs of collusion between Fade Spirits and mages - would exorcism (it's possible in the DA Lore) - and temporary Tranquility be acceptable to you?

If the spirit is deemed to be sufficiently harmful, forced exorcism might be done.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 10 octobre 2013 - 07:03 .

[Medhia Nox]

I so cannot agree with your belief that it's okay to murder people and just have "longer" periods of prison time. If you want to agree to blood magic murder = permanent imprisonment in Aeonar, then sure.

Rehabilitation? You mean like the Qunari rehabilitate their citizens?

=====

I see, so you're rebellion was about you then? How cold the face beneath the mask of social reform.

You spearheaded a violent rebellion that endangered the lives of not just the templars - but ALL the citizens of Thedas (and if the Veil was torn because of this war - then this applies even more).

And now, you're splitting hairs just to ensure your position.

-----

Then would you agree to forbidding Fade entity collusion until Fade entities can be properly studied so we might find out what "sufficiently harmful" even means in the realm of beings who use mortal beings as sock puppets?

[Xilizhra]

I so cannot agree with your belief that it's okay to murder people and just have "longer" periods of prison time. If you want to agree to blood magic murder = permanent imprisonment in Aeonar, then sure.

Rehabilitation? You mean like the Qunari rehabilitate their citizens?

To clarify, blood magic murder should be treated like every other murder.

I see, so you're rebellion was about you then? How cold the face beneath the mask of social reform.

You spearheaded a violent rebellion that endangered the lives of not just the templars - but ALL the citizens of Thedas (and if the Veil was torn because of this war - then this applies even more).

And now, you're splitting hairs just to ensure your position.

Um, no. The war began when the templars decided to attack the mages. That's the beginning and end of it. All I've fought for is survival and to ensure that this never happens again.

Then would you agree to forbidding Fade entity collusion until Fade entities can be properly studied so we might find out what "sufficiently harmful" even means in the realm of beings who use mortal beings as sock puppets?

I'll need to assess Rivain first.

[Medhia Nox]

I don't believe regular murder should be given rehabilitation either.

Since you've put me in the position of the Templars (and, to be fair, that was the exercise MisterJB suggested) - I cant state some of my real opinions about this, as just conceding certain things to you would not be in the interest of the Templars - who, despite whatever a book I haven't read says - have very valid points about the dangers of mages.

You're being duplicitous about the causes of this war - mages are not innocent. I would say that even as a mage (I keep bringing this up for perspective on my thoughts).

====

Is it not true - that the mages left the Circle - and in the interest of peace, the Chantry let you go - and in the interest of horribly misguided safety - the Templars refused to submit to bullying.

And that's what it is - mages saying: "We have fireballs and demon summoning - give us what we want." That's the worst form of factional bullying...

That is not civil disobedience... that is threatning violent revolution.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 10 octobre 2013 - 07:19 .

[Xilizhra]

I don't believe regular murder should be given rehabilitation either.

Then it's a difference in belief in punishment philosophies that has little to do with magic as such.

Since you've put me in the position of the Templars (and, to be fair, that was the exercise MisterJB suggested) - I cant state some of my real opinions about this, as just conceding certain things to you would not be in the interest of the Templars - who, despite whatever a book I haven't read says - have very valid points about the dangers of mages.

I didn't put you in the position of the templars. I just stated which sides were doing the negotiating. You chose to be on the side of the templars.

You're being duplicitous about the causes of this war - mages are not innocent. I would say that even as a mage (I keep bringing this up for perspective on my thoughts).

I'm not. It was not war until the templars chose it.

Is it not true - that the mages left the Circle - and in the interest of peace, the Chantry let you go - and in the interest of horribly misguided safety - the Templars refused to submit to bullying.

Not bullying on our end, attempted genocide on theirs. Had the Chantry actually been willing to negotiate and rein in the templars sometime in the past 900 years, none of this would have happened.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...
First, the templars will remain separate from the Chantry and be a secular order.

Rejected.
Impractical and very problematic from an organizational and logistical perspective.

Second, the ranks of the templars need to be purged; getting rid of people like Meredith and Alrik is paramount.

Partially accepted. Meredith was OK before the idol.
Alarik, yes, get rid of scum like him.

Third, nonconsensual use of the Rite of Tranquility will be abolished.

Rejected. Punishment is not something the guilty party gets to choose.

Fourth, while templars may continue to enforce the law, dealing with mage lawbreakers will require the input of both mage and templar superiors.

Isn't this how it usually goes already?

Finally, the Circles will allow nonmage civilians to settle in villages surrounding the towers and possibly be granted economic incentives to do so; in this way, those family members of mages who wish to remain close may do so.

Was this ever dissalowed?

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 11 octobre 2013 - 08:47 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
First, the templars will remain separate from the Chantry and be a secular order.

Rejected.
Impractical and very problematic from an organizational and logistical perspective.

Yes, but the Chantry doctrine of magic being both a gift and a curse is frequently misinterpreted in ways that give mages self-esteem problems and give Templars ego trips. So notwithstanding that you have an argument, it really might be for the best to just bite the bullet and go through with this.