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Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Good luck stoping organized belief.
I'd like to see you try, since every single person in the world is part of SOME organized belief or another.
DPSSOC wrote...
Second if the Templars aren't attached to an organization like the Chantry who'll fund them?
leaguer of one wrote...
If it's able to sell good it can. Think about it for a moment of how valueble magical titems are. How good it is in a fight, how it protects others and makes things easier. Runecrafting alone can make the mages enough money to support themselves. Add allowed the mages can make the best hospitals in the world with there healing abilities.
The mages can easily fund themselves if allowed to. They ever have a faternity in the circle of magi which is 100% about profit.
DPSSOC wrote...
Johnny_TYS38 wrote...
Why not just separate them into individual group of people?
The mage should establish their own organisation and set their own rules and restriction with regards to issues such as Tranquility and blood mages. They should not be treated like criminal just because of the way they were bron.
#1 - They aren't treated like criminals. The Circles are likened to a prison, certainly not inaccurate, but the difference is the Circles are not, nor have they ever been, a punishment. People like to talk about the Circles and the Chantry in terms of punishing mages for the actions of the ancient Magisters and that's simply not the case. The Circles are an enclave where mages can learn and practice their magic in a safe environment far from the general populace for the safety of everyone. The idea is that if something goes wrong the fallout won't go beyond the walls of the Circle.
Now certainly modern Circles are not ideal institutions but they're still not places of punishment.
#2 - Mages can't establish their own rules in a vacuum because you run into issues of priority. Hypothetically let's say the mages decide that Blood Magic is fine so long as you use your own blood, but the land the mages have set up a Circle in (let's say Kinloch Hold in Fereldan) has outlawed Blood Magic entirely. Which laws apply the laws the mages have set up themselves, or the laws of the land they inhabit?
Not to mention letting people come up with what rules apply to them on their own is a remarkably bad idea. You can't have the rules applying to a group be at the whim of said group, that's when you get people like Vaughn.
I think the best system would be to have the Mages decide the rules the Templars have to abide by, and the Templars decide which rules the Mages have to. This will foster negotiation and compromise between the two groups.Johnny_TYS38 wrote...
The Templar will be enforcers as they have the knowledge of dealing with blood magic and demons. They should not be given any power or authority over the mages and will be an independent organisation that do not take order from anyone like the chantry
Ok how can the Templars enforce rule of law upon the mages if they have no power or authourity over them? Second if the Templars aren't attached to an organization like the Chantry who'll fund them?
LobselVith8 wrote...
I think some people think it's a good idea to keep the Chantry of Andraste from having any degree of power or authority over the mages.
Who ever said I was anti organization? I' was just say religion is not the only one that does that. But it's much easier for religion to do that.Lotion Soronnar wrote...
leaguer of one wrote...
That's not 100% true. Religion does have it's faults. You are only looking at an extremist view of anti religion concepts. The best explination for an anti-religion arguement can be seen in movies like Dogma. It's the fact that the belief and the practice of religion is two different thing. Thie issue is that people have a tendency to look more at how they beleive in the religion not what they believe in and that causes the conflicts an issue. Any organized belief can do that not just religion. It just that in cases ofreligion people have a history to for go logic in the name of belief to the extreme. That is a problem in any dialogue for change.
Good luck stoping organized belief.
I'd like to see you try, since every single person in the world is part of SOME organized belief or another.
I don't want to bring politics in here but look at the tea party in the USA and how they are blocking of the government right now..Br3ad wrote...
I was unaware that religion itslef did that. I was under the impression that most people no longer mindlessly fallow everything that a few men say. But I guess not. I guess that a few poeple doing things equals a lot of people thinking that it is just. I was also unaware that I was mindless becaused I believe in something. Thank you for educating me and I will know take your word as law.
wright1978 wrote...
DPSSOC wrote...
Second if the Templars aren't attached to an organization like the Chantry who'll fund them?
The answer as to who should fund any future oversight system is surely the mages(self funded). Magic is a commodity & there would be plenty of people willing to pay legitamately for such a regulated commodity.
Johnny_TYS38 wrote...
I do agree about a compromise between mages and templars, setting rules for the other group to abide. Take kirkwall as an example, there were no such compromise. Templars were clearly abusing their authority and power that was given to them by the chantry. Anyone who tried to reason or speak out against them have a high chance of becoming a tranquil. I just do not seem it as an enclave for the practicing of magic.
About the blood magic, there are research about blood magic that can be good such as using blood as a subsitute for lyrium or the blood magic power from the warden keep DLC. I would prefer that there should be a line drawn such as if certain research or spells involve summoning demons, it should be forbidden and banned.
The templar should function as an independent organisation that consist of individual who are highly trained to fight against the dangers of magic and demons. This might sound absurd but I think that the templar would be better off without the chantry, do not have to sworn any oath or loyalty and foucsing only on dealing with dangerous blood mage and demons.The templar would then train to use their abilites instead of being dependent on lyrium which could lead to lyium addiction
Sure...as if running death camps and genocide will make everything better...billy the squid wrote...
The mages will be placed in segregated communities where the weak and dissident of their kind can be weeded out through work, the rest can then be systematically moved to other locations and disposed of as necessary.
Best, easiest and most simple way to deal with a troublesome enemy.
Not really,it's just certain groups who are religious fanatics are currently making things worse.EmperorSahlertz wrote...
People are just riding the anti-religion stick, to its fullest. It is apparently very "in" right now, to be anti-religion.
You wound me, Billy.billy the squid wrote...
cjones91 wrote...
Sure...as if running death camps and genocide will make everything better...billy the squid wrote...
The mages will be placed in segregated communities where the weak and dissident of their kind can be weeded out through work, the rest can then be systematically moved to other locations and disposed of as necessary.
Best, easiest and most simple way to deal with a troublesome enemy.
Work camps, you mage supporters are all the same, you want to have your cake and eat it. Never a compromise. This is a perfectly workable solution, work makes you free.
As it's a law about magic that doesn't affect the nonmagical citizenry unless they become targets of self-defense, the Circle's law here would take priority.#2 - Mages can't establish their own rules in a vacuum because you run into issues of priority. Hypothetically let's say the mages decide that Blood Magic is fine so long as you use your own blood, but the land the mages have set up a Circle in (let's say Kinloch Hold in Fereldan) has outlawed Blood Magic entirely. Which laws apply the laws the mages have set up themselves, or the laws of the land they inhabit?
Isn't that the point of democracy, really? The problem with Vaughan and his ilk is that they don't make rules for everyone, but rather one set of rules for one group and another set for another, and the fact that the elves, in this case, do not have any input.Not to mention letting people come up with what rules apply to them on their own is a remarkably bad idea. You can't have the rules applying to a group be at the whim of said group, that's when you get people like Vaughn.
Have their paychecks come not from the Circle that they serve in, but from some location of central mage authority. Create a sort of federal authority over the state one of the Circles themselves.This runs into the same problem as the Mages deciding their own rules. You'll either have an ineffective token force, or a Brute Squad acting on the whims of the First/Senior Enchanters.
This is one reason that blood magic shouldn't be banned fully. It'll be the knowledge that a single, quiet, not-insane blood mage whose only goal was to do as much damage as possible to a nation's infrastructure could do a hell of a lot if they open Veil tears in the right place and are fast-moving. The notion that I think of first is the one that says that mages can do way more damage than what would make trying to take the Circles by force would be worth.1. How do you guarantee circle independence?
The circles will, no matter what happens, be a resource of immense value. It will be awfully tempting for anyone to seize those resources for themselves. Once those resources are in their hands, it'll be very difficult to take back (not to mention that by subtle machinations, it can be very difficult to discover). If Orlais decides to aim it's full force of it's Chevalier legions to control the circle and rebuff anyone coming to protest, you're going to need massive armies to save the circle... and Orlais will know this.
Since mages are a "renewable resource" that each nation will have access to they don't really need anyone outside their own nation, so being embargoed is a threat that lack bite.
Not to mention that the nation's political, military and mercantile parties might be utterly uninterested in helping the mages.
The chantry, for better and for worse, has the influence to guarantee this. They have massive popular support, ties to every noble family, the ear of every monarch and a claim (false or true) of divine right. It's awfully difficult to resist the Chantry because it has the muscles to destroy you.
Ditto.2. How do you prevent competition?
Similar to above, even if we prevent the sovereign nations from seizing control of the existing circles, what's stopping them from creating new ones under their control and denying the old ones any fresh recruits. Currently, "divine law" and the occasional piece of support prevents them from doing so. The circles supporting their patron nations would go a long way of course, but it's not a very strong guarantee.
We could do the same, namely having at least one mage in each town, a trustworthy one, as a Circle representative. Making it known where to get training shouldn't be too hard. As for those who don't want to... well, they're below the age of majority as it is, so that's not necessarily a huge issue, but for their families, there are certainly incentives to make it easier, such as getting them to move into villages near the Circles.3. Without the chantry, how do you guarantee recruitment?
The Chantry has, without a doubt, access to the largest information network in Thedas since just about every single village has a representative. If Chantry and Circles are separate, how exactly do you keep an eye out for new talent? How do you find magelings? How do you make it known where to get training? How do you handle those that don't want to go?
First, lyrium for templars would be greatly cut: IIRC, you only need it to unlock the power, you don't need to keep dosing them with the stuff. Second, an expansion of magical goods/services for the rest of the people of Thedas, and possibly hiring support staff who might be able to do things like alchemy that are related to magic but don't require it.4. Economy.
How do you pay for the damned thing? And now we're not just talking circles anymore... since we're separating the whole thing we're also talking:
Templar wages
(Mage wages?)
Templar equipment
Lyrium for mages
Lyrium for templars
Lodgings for both
Food
Medicine
Recruitment
Information network
Administration
Communication
(plus compensation/incentives for families if that's agreed upon)
A lot of this fell in the Chantry's portfolio before, now it would have to fall under the Circle. And furthermore, how do you prevent templars from becoming dependent on mages for their living (because no templar ever is going to agree to have their livelyhood controlled by the mages)?
billy the squid wrote...
Work camps, you mage supporters are all the same, you want to have your cake and eat it. Never a compromise. This is a perfectly workable solution, work makes you free.
billy the squid wrote...
TheRedVipress wrote...
billy the squid wrote...
Work camps, you mage supporters are all the same, you want to have your cake and eat it. Never a compromise. This is a perfectly workable solution, work makes you free.
Strange, I seem to remeber that it's usually the religious fanatics who refuse to compromise.
And you should have used the original quote: "arbeit macht frei".
That will make it easier for people to get a clearer picture about the kind of person who thinks that those "solutions"
are okay to use in order to "solve" a problem, even in fantasy settings.
Disgusting.
For every problem there's a Final Solution.
That's the point, Bily is a troll.eluvianix wrote...
billy the squid wrote...
TheRedVipress wrote...
billy the squid wrote...
Work camps, you mage supporters are all the same, you want to have your cake and eat it. Never a compromise. This is a perfectly workable solution, work makes you free.
Strange, I seem to remeber that it's usually the religious fanatics who refuse to compromise.
And you should have used the original quote: "arbeit macht frei".
That will make it easier for people to get a clearer picture about the kind of person who thinks that those "solutions"
are okay to use in order to "solve" a problem, even in fantasy settings.
Disgusting.
For every problem there's a Final Solution.
Godwin's Law, here we come.
I think you missed the point here that the problem isMage wanting better rights. Preposing less rights is just going to make things worse. Making them slaves is just inverting the teventer imperium.billy the squid wrote...
cjones91 wrote...
Sure...as if running death camps and genocide will make everything better...billy the squid wrote...
The mages will be placed in segregated communities where the weak and dissident of their kind can be weeded out through work, the rest can then be systematically moved to other locations and disposed of as necessary.
Best, easiest and most simple way to deal with a troublesome enemy.
Work camps, you mage supporters are all the same, you want to have your cake and eat it. Never a compromise. This is a perfectly workable solution, work makes you free.
Nope...It's worse. He's pulling a 1982 with mages.eluvianix wrote...
billy the squid wrote...
TheRedVipress wrote...
billy the squid wrote...
Work camps, you mage supporters are all the same, you want to have your cake and eat it. Never a compromise. This is a perfectly workable solution, work makes you free.
Strange, I seem to remeber that it's usually the religious fanatics who refuse to compromise.
And you should have used the original quote: "arbeit macht frei".
That will make it easier for people to get a clearer picture about the kind of person who thinks that those "solutions"
are okay to use in order to "solve" a problem, even in fantasy settings.
Disgusting.
For every problem there's a Final Solution.
Godwin's Law, here we come.
Xilizhra wrote...
This is one reason that blood magic shouldn't be banned fully. It'll be the knowledge that a single, quiet, not-insane blood mage whose only goal was to do as much damage as possible to a nation's infrastructure could do a hell of a lot if they open Veil tears in the right place and are fast-moving. The notion that I think of first is the one that says that mages can do way more damage than what would make trying to take the Circles by force would be worth.
We could do the same, namely having at least one mage in each town, a trustworthy one, as a Circle representative. Making it known where to get training shouldn't be too hard. As for those who don't want to... well, they're below the age of majority as it is, so that's not necessarily a huge issue, but for their families, there are certainly incentives to make it easier, such as getting them to move into villages near the Circles.
First, lyrium for templars would be greatly cut: IIRC, you only need it to unlock the power, you don't need to keep dosing them with the stuff. Second, an expansion of magical goods/services for the rest of the people of Thedas, and possibly hiring support staff who might be able to do things like alchemy that are related to magic but don't require it.
I also would like to launch a major recruitment drive for casteless dwarves who are willing to learn enchanting and to give up criminality if they have records there. They might be able to replace, or at least greatly supplement, the Tranquil, and if there are enough of them, they could be most useful.
So's the status quo.Xil... as you may have noticed... many of us leaning towards the pro-templar arguments tend to lean towards the cynical side... This is not a recipe of success when you look at it through those eyes. This is a recipe for complete and total disaster.
Well, the mages can't win in terms of symmetrical warfare because of numbers disadvantage, thus meaning that asymmetrical warfare is the order of the day. The only alternatives I can think of are either integrating mages into the running of the Chantry itself, or giving the Circles huge armies of undead to maintain their independence.You're suggesting basically mage terror cells, ready to strike against anything anywhere. And if this is to be remotely effective as a deterrent, you must make everyone know that you have them. It's not going to endear anyone to mages, in fact it might just be the most efficient templar recruitment campaign ever.
Furthermore, it hinges on noone doing a Loghain and underestimating their opponent. Should anyone like that show up, you have to carry out this plan of senseless destruction or else noone is ever going to believe it again.
It also hinges on that these mages have nothing which can be leveraged against them, such as families or political ambitions. Or for that matter that the mages themselves don't decide to use this to blackmail their way to greater power.
It's funny how he accuses me of being a mage supporter when I'm strictly neutral.Br3ad wrote...
You wound me, Billy.billy the squid wrote...
cjones91 wrote...
Sure...as if running death camps and genocide will make everything better...billy the squid wrote...
The mages will be placed in segregated communities where the weak and dissident of their kind can be weeded out through work, the rest can then be systematically moved to other locations and disposed of as necessary.
Best, easiest and most simple way to deal with a troublesome enemy.
Work camps, you mage supporters are all the same, you want to have your cake and eat it. Never a compromise. This is a perfectly workable solution, work makes you free.
With very disturbing genocidal thoughts that should get checked out by a mental expert.Xilizhra wrote...
That's the point, Bily is a troll.eluvianix wrote...
billy the squid wrote...
TheRedVipress wrote...
billy the squid wrote...
Work camps, you mage supporters are all the same, you want to have your cake and eat it. Never a compromise. This is a perfectly workable solution, work makes you free.
Strange, I seem to remeber that it's usually the religious fanatics who refuse to compromise.
And you should have used the original quote: "arbeit macht frei".
That will make it easier for people to get a clearer picture about the kind of person who thinks that those "solutions"
are okay to use in order to "solve" a problem, even in fantasy settings.
Disgusting.
For every problem there's a Final Solution.
Godwin's Law, here we come.
cjones91 wrote...
It's funny how he accuses me of being a mage supporter when I'm strictly neutral.
I'm pretty sure cjones91 is, on the scale of one extremist side to the other.wolfhowwl wrote...
cjones91 wrote...
It's funny how he accuses me of being a mage supporter when I'm strictly neutral.
No you are not.
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