2497 réponses à ce sujet

[Sir JK]

Xilizhra wrote...
So's the status quo.

Yeah... I'm not denying that something needs to be done. I just see a lack of other viable candidates besides the majority religious institution.

Unless we accept nationalized circles, of course.

Well, the mages can't win in terms of symmetrical warfare because of numbers disadvantage, thus meaning that asymmetrical warfare is the order of the day. The only alternatives I can think of are either integrating mages into the running of the Chantry itself, or giving the Circles huge armies of undead to maintain their independence.

Actually... maybe integrating mages into the Chantry isn't such a bad idea. If the Chantry's governing them somehow, then the mages should definitely have representation within it, and they could definitely deal with overzealous templar policy there... this might bear further investigation.

I'll answer the others if you think that that idea won't work.

Hmmm... integrating mages into the Chantry further (since technically the previous system had mages be part of the Chantry) is an idea with some merit. That one could actually work. It allows mages greater opportunity to actually control their own fate, thus going a long way towards satisfying most mages. The religious institution itself would serve as the controlling mechanism and with fewer mages resisting would possibly bring more stability to the system.

I am interested and would like to hear more.

[Xilizhra]

Hmmm... integrating mages into the Chantry further (since technically the previous system had mages be part of the Chantry) is an idea with some merit. That one could actually work. It allows mages greater opportunity to actually control their own fate, thus going a long way towards satisfying most mages. The religious institution itself would serve as the controlling mechanism and with fewer mages resisting would possibly bring more stability to the system.

I am interested and would like to hear more.

There's a small problem in that only female mages could attain any real power here. Again, this could be an area where the theory of the Imperial Chantry is superior, assuming that they have priests of both genders rather than only male ones (I actually am not sure). This would also require a change in applied doctrine and removal of the notion that magic is some kind of curse, in addition to the reforms I mentioned prior about removing Annulment, nonconsensual Tranquility and the creation of villages around the Circles so as to ensure that families wouldn't have to be separated. If we can get this done on the Chantry's dime, it'll be an acceptable step upwards.

Of course, once the elves get their civilization back, they'll definitely have a different system, which'll create interesting scenarios depending on how the races work themselves out in the new societies...

[jtav]

Personally, I'm in favor of reforming the Circle system, but not abolishing it or getting it out from under the Chantry. Tranquility was meant to be an alternative to execution, but mages regard them as equivalent. So bring back the executions. Encourage the Seekers to not only stamp down rebellions, but also to rein in men like Alrik. I don't believe mages should be free or self-governing, but they do have certain rights that are not being respected in places like Kirkwall.

[Xilizhra]

jtav wrote...

Personally, I'm in favor of reforming the Circle system, but not abolishing it or getting it out from under the Chantry. Tranquility was meant to be an alternative to execution, but mages regard them as equivalent. So bring back the executions. Encourage the Seekers to not only stamp down rebellions, but also to rein in men like Alrik. I don't believe mages should be free or self-governing, but they do have certain rights that are not being respected in places like Kirkwall.

No, twenty times over. The death penalty is a bad idea to begin with, and rebellions under the current system are completely justified. It needs to change drastically before any sort of order can be restored.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Sir JK wrote...

Yeah... I'm not denying that something needs to be done. I just see a lack of other viable candidates besides the majority religious institution.

Unless we accept nationalized circles, of course.

This actually makes for an interesting free market solution.  Let each nation deal with mages as it sees fit, and let the mages choose freely among those national options.

And then it's only a matter of time before some nation weaponizes its mages.  The mages might even trade such abilities for more freedom.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 11 octobre 2013 - 09:58 .

[cjones91]

[quote]addiction21 wrote...

[quote]cjones91 wrote...


[/quote] It's funny how he accuses me of being a mage supporter when I'm strictly neutral.
[/quote]

Not sure if you are trying to lie to us or yourself at this point.[/quote]My post history shows that I only critcize the extremist elements of both sides and I support the moderates who are willing to make things better for both mages and templars.

[cjones91]

FreshIstay wrote...

People who are dangerous to the fabric of how a society operates should be dealt with in the most peaceful way possible. Magic should not be left unchecked, Mage's do not deserve better or equal rights when they are not equal.

Treat people like animals and they will act like animals.Mages should not be made to feel like monsters just for being born with magic.

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: it's weird how you rail against the death penalty... but killing and obliterating things is a normal part of your vocabulary.

Is it the minimalist nature of the death penalty that galls you? Is mass slaughter somehow more to your appetite?

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 11 octobre 2013 - 10:25 .

[The Hierophant]

Xilizhra wrote...

jtav wrote...

Personally, I'm in favor of reforming the Circle system, but not abolishing it or getting it out from under the Chantry. Tranquility was meant to be an alternative to execution, but mages regard them as equivalent. So bring back the executions. Encourage the Seekers to not only stamp down rebellions, but also to rein in men like Alrik. I don't believe mages should be free or self-governing, but they do have certain rights that are not being respected in places like Kirkwall.

No, twenty times over. The death penalty is a bad idea to begin with, and rebellions under the current system are completely justified. It needs to change drastically before any sort of order can be restored.

If a mage commits a high crime that's punishable by death shouldn't they be executed like the non magical citizens? Plus how would the system deal with a lame mage who lacks the power to resist a demon, isn't leaving them as they are reckless endangerment to those around them?

Modifié par The Hierophant, 11 octobre 2013 - 10:27 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

leaguer of one wrote...
I don't want to bring politics in here but look at the tea party in the USA and how they are blocking of the government right now..

Interest groups created by a shared goal are actually lobbying for them?
SAY IT ISN'T SO!

Ok, really, enough of this BS. No more religion talk. Zip it.

[cjones91]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: it's weird how you rail against the death penalty... but killing and obliterating things is a normal part of your vocabulary.

Is it the minimalist nature of the death penalty that galls you? Is mass slaughter somehow more to your appetite?

Not to take Xil's side or anything but the death penalty has proven to not deter anything.As a matter of fact it just makes the more serious criminals learn to kill witnesses or their victims without leaving much evidence.

 I believe the death penalty should be reserved for the criminals who can't be redeemed.I'm of the same opinion in regards to mages where they should only be killed if they have proven to have a callous disregard for people's lives.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

#2 - Mages can't establish their own rules in a vacuum because you run into issues of priority. Hypothetically let's say the mages decide that Blood Magic is fine so long as you use your own blood, but the land the mages have set up a Circle in (let's say Kinloch Hold in Fereldan) has outlawed Blood Magic entirely. Which laws apply the laws the mages have set up themselves, or the laws of the land they inhabit?

As it's a law about magic that doesn't affect the nonmagical citizenry unless they become targets of self-defense, the Circle's law here would take priority.

No organization's edicts should ever supercede the laws of a sovereign nation, unless said nation agreed on the terms. But no nation, in their right mind, would ever allow mages to practice blood magic.

[Bleachrude]

Um, if you're getting rid of Tranquility, you don't HAVE any magical item creation at all....Remember, it's the tranquil that create the magic items.

EDIT: Death penalty
Again, please note that in Thedas as shown in Awakenings, even NOBLES (yes a knight is a noble, the lowest in the noble hierarchy but STILL a noble) can be executed on circumstantial evidence
Mages must be subject to the same laws as the normal populace otherwise you will end up with Tevinter where mages believe that they are special and deserve benefits.

The Chantry's position of magic being both a curse AND a gift is a value-neutral position on magic whereas "magic is a gift" as the Imperial chantry sees it will invariably lead to mages thinking they are superior to the normal populace.

Modifié par Bleachrude, 11 octobre 2013 - 10:49 .

[Xilizhra]

@Xilizhra: it's weird how you rail against the death penalty... but killing and obliterating things is a normal part of your vocabulary.

Is it the minimalist nature of the death penalty that galls you? Is mass slaughter somehow more to your appetite?

It's not a war that I declared.

If a mage commits a high crime that's punishable by death shouldn't they be executed like the non magical citizens? Plus how would the system deal with a lame mage who lacks the power to resist a demon, isn't leaving them as they are reckless endangerment to those around them?

Voluntary Tranquility is still permissible. I'm also not in favor of executing nonmagical citizens.

Um, if you're getting rid of
Tranquility, you don't HAVE any magical item creation at
all....Remember, it's the tranquil that create the magic items.

Remember my casteless dwarf recruitment drive. Also, voluntary Tranquility might still happen.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 11 octobre 2013 - 10:47 .

[cjones91]

Bleachrude wrote...

Um, if you're getting rid of Tranquility, you don't HAVE any magical item creation at all....Remember, it's the tranquil that create the magic items.

EDIT: Death penalty
Again, please note that in Thedas as shown in Awakenings, even NOBLES (yes a knight is a noble, the lowest in the noble hierarchy but STILL a noble) can be executed on circumstantial evidence
Mages must be subject to the same laws as the normal populace otherwise you will end up with Tevinter where mages believe that they are special and deserve benefits.

The Chantry's position of magic being both a curse AND a gift is a value-neutral position on magic whereas "magic is a gift" as the Imperial chantry sees it will invariably lead to mages thinking they are superior to the normal populace.

Dwarve merchants can help craft them.

[Hellion Rex]

cjones91 wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

Um, if you're getting rid of Tranquility, you don't HAVE any magical item creation at all....Remember, it's the tranquil that create the magic items.

EDIT: Death penalty
Again, please note that in Thedas as shown in Awakenings, even NOBLES (yes a knight is a noble, the lowest in the noble hierarchy but STILL a noble) can be executed on circumstantial evidence
Mages must be subject to the same laws as the normal populace otherwise you will end up with Tevinter where mages believe that they are special and deserve benefits.

The Chantry's position of magic being both a curse AND a gift is a value-neutral position on magic whereas "magic is a gift" as the Imperial chantry sees it will invariably lead to mages thinking they are superior to the normal populace.

Dwarve merchants can help craft them.

Exactly right. Sandal says hello.

[Bleachrude]

Casteless dwarf recruitment will not work for two reasons
1. It is the smith caste that knows how to work lyrium and I imagine they would not be happy that a caste even on the surface is appropriating their caste's livelihood.

2. It assumes that Bhelen (or someone more liberal) is actually on the throne...Harrowmont is not one to agree with this.

[Bleachrude]

Merchant caste != Artisan caste.

Why would the merchant caste intentionally anger the artisan caste by taking over their caste's responsibilities.

And Sandal is your response? Sandal, who many on BSN think might be an Old God Baby from a previous blight, is your example???

Really?

[Hellion Rex]

Bleachrude wrote...

Casteless dwarf recruitment will not work for two reasons
1. It is the smith caste that knows how to work lyrium and I imagine they would not be happy that a caste even on the surface is appropriating their caste's livelihood.

2. It assumes that Bhelen (or someone more liberal) is actually on the throne...Harrowmont is not one to agree with this.

Harrowmont might not agree unless we assume that Tranquility will already have been removed. Then, with a lack of Tranquil to help create magical items, pretty much the rest of Thedas would be willing to pay Orzammar or whoever to help craft these items. Just a possibility.

[Hellion Rex]

Bleachrude wrote...

Merchant caste != Artisan caste.

Why would the merchant caste intentionally anger the artisan caste by taking over their caste's responsibilities.

And Sandal is your response? Sandal, who many on BSN think might be an Old God Baby from a previous blight, is your example???

Really?

We have no idea of what Sandal is. We have no knowledge if his abilities with enchanting are inherent only to him, or are something that could be replicated. Don't discount what he can do, until we have knowledge that disproves it.

[Xilizhra]

Casteless dwarf recruitment will not work for two reasons
1. It is the smith caste that knows how to work lyrium and I imagine they would not be happy that a caste even on the surface is appropriating their caste's livelihood.

2. It assumes that Bhelen (or someone more liberal) is actually on the throne...Harrowmont is not one to agree with this.

1. Guess who also knows how to work lyrium? The Tranquil. The voluntary ones can teach the new recruits the trade. And why would smiths care about what happens on the surface when they clearly haven't cared about the Tranquil?

2. Why not? It gets casteless out of Orzammar.

[Hellion Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

Casteless dwarf recruitment will not work for two reasons
1. It is the smith caste that knows how to work lyrium and I imagine they would not be happy that a caste even on the surface is appropriating their caste's livelihood.

2. It assumes that Bhelen (or someone more liberal) is actually on the throne...Harrowmont is not one to agree with this.

1. Guess who also knows how to work lyrium? The Tranquil. The voluntary ones can teach the new recruits the trade. And why would smiths care about what happens on the surface when they clearly haven't cared about the Tranquil?

2. Why not? It gets casteless out of Orzammar.

I thought we were debating how we would create magical items with the Tranquil taken out of the equation? If so, your first point is kind of invalid. 

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

#2 - Mages can't establish their own rules in a vacuum because you run into issues of priority. Hypothetically let's say the mages decide that Blood Magic is fine so long as you use your own blood, but the land the mages have set up a Circle in (let's say Kinloch Hold in Fereldan) has outlawed Blood Magic entirely. Which laws apply the laws the mages have set up themselves, or the laws of the land they inhabit?

As it's a law about magic that doesn't affect the nonmagical citizenry unless they become targets of self-defense, the Circle's law here would take priority.

No organization's edicts should ever supercede the laws of a sovereign nation, unless said nation agreed on the terms. But no nation, in their right mind, would ever allow mages to practice blood magic.

Practicing blood magic in the open at least. Tevinter is kind of an exception to your point, but I do understand what you are saying.

[Xilizhra]

eluvianix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Casteless dwarf recruitment will not work for two reasons
1. It is the smith caste that knows how to work lyrium and I imagine they would not be happy that a caste even on the surface is appropriating their caste's livelihood.

2. It assumes that Bhelen (or someone more liberal) is actually on the throne...Harrowmont is not one to agree with this.

1. Guess who also knows how to work lyrium? The Tranquil. The voluntary ones can teach the new recruits the trade. And why would smiths care about what happens on the surface when they clearly haven't cared about the Tranquil?

2. Why not? It gets casteless out of Orzammar.

I thought we were debating how we would create magical items with the Tranquil taken out of the equation? If so, your first point is kind of invalid. 

I know, but there are still Tranquil left even if the Rite is removed, and curing them all will take time. Having some remain for a period of time might be a necessity in order to lay the groundwork for the new system to be able to remove the need for them permanently.

No organization's edicts should ever supercede the laws of a sovereign
nation, unless said nation agreed on the terms. But no nation, in their
right mind, would ever allow mages to practice blood magic.

If my new plan works out, the various nations already decided to let the Chantry make laws relating to magic, yes?

Modifié par Xilizhra, 11 octobre 2013 - 11:04 .

[leaguer of one]

Bleachrude wrote...

Um, if you're getting rid of Tranquility, you don't HAVE any magical item creation at all....Remember, it's the tranquil that create the magic items.

That's incorrect. Regular mages can make magical items as well. There is an example of a non tranquil mage that can enchant in DA:A IN THE WARDENS KEEP.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 11 octobre 2013 - 11:13 .