2497 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Casteless dwarf recruitment will not work for two reasons
1. It is the smith caste that knows how to work lyrium and I imagine they would not be happy that a caste even on the surface is appropriating their caste's livelihood.

2. It assumes that Bhelen (or someone more liberal) is actually on the throne...Harrowmont is not one to agree with this.

1. Guess who also knows how to work lyrium? The Tranquil. The voluntary ones can teach the new recruits the trade. And why would smiths care about what happens on the surface when they clearly haven't cared about the Tranquil?

2. Why not? It gets casteless out of Orzammar.

I thought we were debating how we would create magical items with the Tranquil taken out of the equation? If so, your first point is kind of invalid. 

I know, but there are still Tranquil left even if the Rite is removed, and curing them all will take time. Having some remain for a period of time might be a necessity in order to lay the groundwork for the new system to be able to remove the need for them permanently.

No organization's edicts should ever supercede the laws of a sovereign
nation, unless said nation agreed on the terms. But no nation, in their
right mind, would ever allow mages to practice blood magic.

If my new plan works out, the various nations already decided to let the Chantry make laws relating to magic, yes?

How would we decide then who would remain Tranquil for a time while the rest were cured? And by cure, are we talking a la Pharamond? And what if some of those mages had been made Tranquil due to some horrible act? Would we execute them then?

[Xilizhra]

leaguer of one wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

Um, if you're getting rid of Tranquility, you don't HAVE any magical item creation at all....Remember, it's the tranquil that create the magic items.

That's incorrect. Regular mages can make magical items as well. There is an example of a not tranquil mage that can enchant in DA:A IN THE WARDENS KEEP.

Come to think of it, that's true; that was later canon that was not, to my knowledge, contradicted by anything else that came after it.

How would we decide then who would remain Tranquil for a time while the
rest were cured? And by cure, are we talking a la Pharamond? And what if
some of those mages had been made Tranquil due to some horrible act?
Would we execute them then?

I'm not for the death penalty, as I mentioned. Whatever punishment may happen as a replacement would depend on the crime, though a sufficiently long sentence as Tranquility may count regardless. As for deciding who would be picked and otherwise, I'm not quite sure. Presumably voluntary ones and the worst criminals would be at the bottom of the pile.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 11 octobre 2013 - 11:08 .

[Hellion Rex]

leaguer of one wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

Um, if you're getting rid of Tranquility, you don't HAVE any magical item creation at all....Remember, it's the tranquil that create the magic items.

That's incorrect. Regular mages can make magical items as well. There is an example of a not tranquil mage that can enchant in DA:A IN THE WARDENS KEEP.

Good point. But I think the Tranquil are the best at enchanting.

[Hellion Rex]

Question: When Pharamond was saved, was his fade connection actually restored? Because if so, how come his magic was still lost? Or were just his emotions returned, and not his connection to the Fade? Or was he just rendered mundane with heightened emotions.

[Xilizhra]

eluvianix wrote...

Question: When Pharamond was saved, was his fade connection actually restored? Because if so, how come his magic was still lost? Or were just his emotions returned, and not his connection to the Fade? Or was he just rendered mundane with heightened emotions.

His magic came back, IIRC.

[Hellion Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Question: When Pharamond was saved, was his fade connection actually restored? Because if so, how come his magic was still lost? Or were just his emotions returned, and not his connection to the Fade? Or was he just rendered mundane with heightened emotions.

His magic came back, IIRC.

Wait, what? I thought the one thing they could agree on was that his magic didn't come back? I just looked at my copy of Asunder, and I am not seeing that anywhere. 

[Xilizhra]

eluvianix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Question: When Pharamond was saved, was his fade connection actually restored? Because if so, how come his magic was still lost? Or were just his emotions returned, and not his connection to the Fade? Or was he just rendered mundane with heightened emotions.

His magic came back, IIRC.

Wait, what? I thought the one thing they could agree on was that his magic didn't come back? I just looked at my copy of Asunder, and I am not seeing that anywhere. 

Maybe it was taking a longer time to do so. I definitely remember that there was absolutely no way to remove someone's magic but let them keep their emotions.

[Medhia Nox]

Wait a minute - removing Tranquilization leaves the mage... mundane.

"If" that's true - it changes the entire argument.

[Hellion Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Question: When Pharamond was saved, was his fade connection actually restored? Because if so, how come his magic was still lost? Or were just his emotions returned, and not his connection to the Fade? Or was he just rendered mundane with heightened emotions.

His magic came back, IIRC.

Wait, what? I thought the one thing they could agree on was that his magic didn't come back? I just looked at my copy of Asunder, and I am not seeing that anywhere. 

Maybe it was taking a longer time to do so. I definitely remember that there was absolutely no way to remove someone's magic but let them keep their emotions.

I was just looking at the Tranquility page on the wiki, and was surprised by something. Have you ever heard of Eiton, a child born Tranquil? 

[Hellion Rex]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Wait a minute - removing Tranquilization leaves the mage... mundane.

"If" that's true - it changes the entire argument.

Exactly. That's why I am trying to figure out for sure if Pharamond was mundane or not.

[Hellion Rex]

@Xilizhra: The wiki isn't very explicit on this subject, and makes no direct mention of the mage's magic being returned. It just uses the broad statement of "a way to reverse the effects of the Rite of Tranquility".

Modifié par eluvianix, 11 octobre 2013 - 11:22 .

[TK514]

Xilizhra wrote...

1. Guess who also knows how to work lyrium? The Tranquil. The voluntary ones can teach the new recruits the trade. And why would smiths care about what happens on the surface when they clearly haven't cared about the Tranquil?

2. Why not? It gets casteless out of Orzammar.

1.  They haven't cared about the Tranquil because there aren't enough Tranquil to threaten their business.  It's like asking why the Coca Cola company doesn't go after little Suzie's lemonaide stand.

2.  You assume the casteless would want to leave Orzammar for the surface.  There hasn't exactly been a mass exodus of them so far.

[Medhia Nox]

@eluvianix: it won't for some people - some people want to be special, but also be treated equal.. which is a totally selfish farce.

[jtav]

[quote]Medhia Nox wrote...

Wait a minute - removing Tranquilization leaves the mage... mundane.

"If" that's true - it changes the entire argument. [/quote

If that's what happens we have a solution: traquil the mages and restore the connection. And the magic and all attendant problems go away.

[Hellion Rex]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@eluvianix: it won't for some people - some people want to be special, but also be treated equal.. which is a totally selfish farce.

Unfortunately. Regardless, I would kill for some clarification, because the answer affects this whole argument.

[Xilizhra]

1. They haven't cared about the Tranquil because there aren't enough Tranquil to threaten their business. It's like asking why the Coca Cola company doesn't go after little Suzie's lemonaide stand.

If true, this means one of two things. Either the Circles sell enchanted things aboveground and the smiths sell them underground, in which case the smiths won't care... or the smiths have the market cornered aboveground as well, in which case the Tranquil are clearly selling so little that it doesn't seem that they make a significant amount for the Circle.

2. You assume the casteless would want to leave Orzammar for the surface. There hasn't exactly been a mass exodus of them so far.

There hasn't been an opportunity opened directly to them before.

@eluvianix: it won't for some people - some people want to be special, but also be treated equal.. which is a totally selfish farce.

This is sheer idiocy. It's like saying "you're too smart and therefore not equal, you must sublimate your intelligence and act dumber."

If that's what happens we have a solution: traquil the mages and restore
the connection. And the magic and all attendant problems go away.

No. Magic is far too useful, and it'd still be horrible violation done to everyone who didn't volunteer for it.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 11 octobre 2013 - 11:30 .

[Hellion Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

1. They haven't cared about the Tranquil because there aren't enough Tranquil to threaten their business. It's like asking why the Coca Cola company doesn't go after little Suzie's lemonaide stand.

If true, this means one of two things. Either the Circles sell enchanted things aboveground and the smiths sell them underground, in which case the smiths won't care... or the smiths have the market cornered aboveground as well, in which case the Tranquil are clearly selling so little that it doesn't seem that they make a significant amount for the Circle.

2. You assume the casteless would want to leave Orzammar for the surface. There hasn't exactly been a mass exodus of them so far.

There hasn't been an opportunity opened directly to them before.

@eluvianix: it won't for some people - some people want to be special, but also be treated equal.. which is a totally selfish farce.

This is sheer idiocy. It's like saying "you're too smart and therefore not equal, you must sublimate your intelligence and act dumber."

If that's what happens we have a solution: traquil the mages and restore
the connection. And the magic and all attendant problems go away.

No. Magic is far too useful, and it'd still be horrible violation done to everyone who didn't volunteer for it.

We would also have no Grey Wardens to combat the Blight with. Also, the Qunari would pretty much run rampant over Thedas rather quickly too.

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: You know best of course.

[dragonflight288]

eluvianix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

1. They haven't cared about the Tranquil because there aren't enough Tranquil to threaten their business. It's like asking why the Coca Cola company doesn't go after little Suzie's lemonaide stand.

If true, this means one of two things. Either the Circles sell enchanted things aboveground and the smiths sell them underground, in which case the smiths won't care... or the smiths have the market cornered aboveground as well, in which case the Tranquil are clearly selling so little that it doesn't seem that they make a significant amount for the Circle.

2. You assume the casteless would want to leave Orzammar for the surface. There hasn't exactly been a mass exodus of them so far.

There hasn't been an opportunity opened directly to them before.

@eluvianix: it won't for some people - some people want to be special, but also be treated equal.. which is a totally selfish farce.

This is sheer idiocy. It's like saying "you're too smart and therefore not equal, you must sublimate your intelligence and act dumber."

If that's what happens we have a solution: traquil the mages and restore
the connection. And the magic and all attendant problems go away.

No. Magic is far too useful, and it'd still be horrible violation done to everyone who didn't volunteer for it.

We would also have no Grey Wardens to combat the Blight with. Also, the Qunari would pretty much run rampant over Thedas rather quickly too.

We would also run out of magical healing, so the nobles/templars would have to go without healers. And we would also lose those who are capable of mending torn veils.

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

1. They haven't cared about the Tranquil because there aren't enough Tranquil to threaten their business. It's like asking why the Coca Cola company doesn't go after little Suzie's lemonaide stand.

If true, this means one of two things. Either the Circles sell enchanted things aboveground and the smiths sell them underground, in which case the smiths won't care... or the smiths have the market cornered aboveground as well, in which case the Tranquil are clearly selling so little that it doesn't seem that they make a significant amount for the Circle.

2. You assume the casteless would want to leave Orzammar for the surface. There hasn't exactly been a mass exodus of them so far.

There hasn't been an opportunity opened directly to them before.

@eluvianix: it won't for some people - some people want to be special, but also be treated equal.. which is a totally selfish farce.

This is sheer idiocy. It's like saying "you're too smart and therefore not equal, you must sublimate your intelligence and act dumber."

If that's what happens we have a solution: traquil the mages and restore
the connection. And the magic and all attendant problems go away.

No. Magic is far too useful, and it'd still be horrible violation done to everyone who didn't volunteer for it.

We would also have no Grey Wardens to combat the Blight with. Also, the Qunari would pretty much run rampant over Thedas rather quickly too.

We would also run out of magical healing, so the nobles/templars would have to go without healers. And we would also lose those who are capable of mending torn veils.

Also very true! So no, I don't think magic is going anywhere.

[Heimdall]

eluvianix wrote...

 
Also very true! So no, I don't think magic is going anywhere.

While all true, as an alternative to Tranquility for mages deemed too dangerous and those that choose it, it would be invaluable.

[EmperorSahlertz]

When the Rite of Tranquility is reversed, the mage's magical abilities are restored aswell. The research's goal was to find a way to sever the magical abilities, but allow the mage to keep his emotions. The research came up with no conclusions on the possibility of the goal.

[Xilizhra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

When the Rite of Tranquility is reversed, the mage's magical abilities are restored aswell. The research's goal was to find a way to sever the magical abilities, but allow the mage to keep his emotions. The research came up with no conclusions on the possibility of the goal.

As mentioned prior. So no, that won't work. Sorry that you have to fully violate people instead of allegedly only violating them a little bit, jtav.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Rite does have its uses.