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David Gaider: I don’t think we’ve ever presented the idea of a mage revolution as being the best answer with an obviously good resolution.


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#1351
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Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

J. Reezy wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

J. Reezy wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

If dolphins can commit suicide then they clearly have emotions.

What the heck does killing yourself have to do with validating a capacity for emotion?

Depression is an emotion. They killing themselves out of depression.

Suicide is not attached to an emotion. There's plenty of reasons for it.


One of the largest being emotion.

So if I come along along, pull the pin off a grenade, and blow myself up, assuming I was completely oblivious towards the function of a grenade, it was because I was emotional?

Modifié par J. Reezy, 12 octobre 2013 - 05:29 .


#1352
KainD

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J. Reezy wrote...
So if I come along along, pull the pin off a grenade, and blow myself up, assuming I was completely oblivious towards the function of a grenade, it was because I was emotional?


Naturally. 

#1353
Grand Admiral Cheesecake

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KainD wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

That's a choice made with bias and emotiom. Remember emotion can over step the need to servive.


People only want to survive because they are emotionally afraid of death. 


That is a gross simplification.

I choose to survive because the world is just interesting enough to make it worth it.

Fear should be reserved for potential threats not certanties.

#1354
leaguer of one

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KainD wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

That's a choice made with bias and emotiom. Remember emotion can over step the need to servive.


People only want to survive because they are emotionally afraid of death. 

That's one of the reasons why. People also don't want to die because there instints conflict with it. Lke a perons not wanting to harm themselves out of the instinct to self preserve them selve. It not just 100% emotion. Even then emotion can over ride it and the person can allow themselve to be killed.

#1355
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KainD wrote...

J. Reezy wrote...
So if I come along along, pull the pin off a grenade, and blow myself up, assuming I was completely oblivious towards the function of a grenade, it was because I was emotional?


Naturally. 

Kain go home, you're...something.

#1356
leaguer of one

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J. Reezy wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

J. Reezy wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

J. Reezy wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

If dolphins can commit suicide then they clearly have emotions.

What the heck does killing yourself have to do with validating a capacity for emotion?

Depression is an emotion. They killing themselves out of depression.

Suicide is not attached to an emotion. There's plenty of reasons for it.


One of the largest being emotion.

So if I come along along, pull the pin off a grenade, and blow myself up, assuming I was completely oblivious towards the function of a grenade, it was because I was emotional?

What made you pull the pin of the grenade?:whistle:

#1357
KainD

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Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

I choose to survive because the world is just interesting enough to make it worth it.


Interest is emotion. 

#1358
Cainhurst Crow

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KainD wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

It's where your emotions such as sorrow, greif, self-loathing, and dispair win out against logical reasoning and you give in to them.


Right. Mind giving me some logical reasons on why living is better than being dead? 


1. Familiarity. There is no evidence for what lies in the afterlife. Furthermore, there is no evidence that what lie in the afterlife is acutally better than what you are going through now.

2. Perspective. Emotions lead to stronger than neccisary attachments to the self, and so people can get wrapped into their own selves when overly-emotional and not think clearly. Gaining perspective by detaching one's self from their emotions can allow a person to better asses their situation, find solutions, or simply find ways to cope. Taking it further with the tranquil, without emotions, they'd have no motivation to end their emotional torment.

3. Benefits vs Cost. Without emotions to give false weight to the problems you may be suffering from, a person can better weigh the situaiton of why it is they want to kill themselves in the first place, and what it gains them. While an overly emotional person will reject all things that don't conform with their mental thought violently, with lots of rage, crying, and screaming.

#1359
Grand Admiral Cheesecake

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KainD wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

I choose to survive because the world is just interesting enough to make it worth it.


Interest is emotion. 


Ah but you said it was only the fear of death.

My continuing existence makes  that absolute statement false.

You aren't winning this one old bean, you might want to go back to praising the space succubus.

#1360
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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J. Reezy wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

J. Reezy wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Depression is an emotion. They killing themselves out of depression.

Suicide is not attached to an emotion. There's plenty of reasons for it.


One of the largest being emotion.

So if I come along along, pull the pin off a grenade, and blow myself up, assuming I was completely oblivious towards the function of a grenade, it was because I was emotional?


That's not what I said. I said one of the main reasons people kill themselves is emotion.

Also, that circumstance is an accidental death, not a suicide.

Edit: Furthermore, how the hell did the conversation turn into this?

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 12 octobre 2013 - 05:38 .


#1361
KainD

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leaguer of one wrote...

That's one of the reasons why. People also don't want to die because there instints conflict with it. Lke a perons not wanting to harm themselves out of the instinct to self preserve them selve. It not just 100% emotion. Even then emotion can over ride it and the person can allow themselve to be killed.


Instincts actually trigger the fear emotion. But if there is nothing to trigger. 
There were some experiments on soldiers with removing their fear through use of some microchips. I don't remember exact details, but they had almost no self preserve instincts left. 

#1362
KainD

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Darth Brotarian wrote...

1. Familiarity. There is no evidence for what lies in the afterlife. Furthermore, there is no evidence that what lie in the afterlife is acutally better than what you are going through now.

2. Perspective. Emotions lead to stronger than neccisary attachments to the self, and so people can get wrapped into their own selves when overly-emotional and not think clearly. Gaining perspective by detaching one's self from their emotions can allow a person to better asses their situation, find solutions, or simply find ways to cope. Taking it further with the tranquil, without emotions, they'd have no motivation to end their emotional torment.

3. Benefits vs Cost. Without emotions to give false weight to the problems you may be suffering from, a person can better weigh the situaiton of why it is they want to kill themselves in the first place, and what it gains them. While an overly emotional person will reject all things that don't conform with their mental thought violently, with lots of rage, crying, and screaming.


1) You tie familiarity with superiority, you say better. But it is our emotions that determine what we think is better. 

2) But if you have no emotions there are no problems to solve, you simply don't care. 

3) Again, you have no problems without emotions, everything is always the same, and that is colorless, you simply don't care. 

What you are discribing is a very LOW emotional state, rather than a completely emotionless state. 

#1363
KainD

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Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Ah but you said it was only the fear of death.

My continuing existence makes  that absolute statement false.

You aren't winning this one old bean, you might want to go back to praising the space succubus.


Lol. 

You are still choosing to live because of emotion, even if it's not fear. 

#1364
Cainhurst Crow

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So if a person doesn't care, why even contemplate suicide in the first place?

Emotionless, the antithesis to suicide. As I stated.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 12 octobre 2013 - 05:39 .


#1365
leaguer of one

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KainD wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

That's one of the reasons why. People also don't want to die because there instints conflict with it. Lke a perons not wanting to harm themselves out of the instinct to self preserve them selve. It not just 100% emotion. Even then emotion can over ride it and the person can allow themselve to be killed.


Instincts actually trigger the fear emotion. But if there is nothing to trigger. 
There were some experiments on soldiers with removing their fear through use of some microchips. I don't remember exact details, but they had almost no self preserve instincts left. 

Emotion is an instinct.  It just becomes more complex the more intelligent the being is.
Also, having no self preservation instinct and being ok with dying are to different things. 

One is a lack of something and the other is formed with logic and emotion.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 12 octobre 2013 - 05:40 .


#1366
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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KainD wrote...

What you are discribing is a very LOW emotional state, rather than a completely emotionless state. 


I believe that to be what the Tranquil are in, since they fit better with what he describes than with the complete not-caring that they should display.

#1367
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Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

J. Reezy wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

J. Reezy wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Depression is an emotion. They killing themselves out of depression.

Suicide is not attached to an emotion. There's plenty of reasons for it.


One of the largest being emotion.

So if I come along along, pull the pin off a grenade, and blow myself up, assuming I was completely oblivious towards the function of a grenade, it was because I was emotional?


That's not what I said. I said one of the main reasons people kill themselves is emotion.

Also, that circumstance is an accidental death, not a suicide.

Fine, leave out the completely oblivious part. I'm just wondering where the emotion is in suicide.

#1368
CynicalShep

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KainD wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

That's one of the reasons why. People also don't want to die because there instints conflict with it. Lke a perons not wanting to harm themselves out of the instinct to self preserve them selve. It not just 100% emotion. Even then emotion can over ride it and the person can allow themselve to be killed.


Instincts actually trigger the fear emotion. But if there is nothing to trigger. 
There were some experiments on soldiers with removing their fear through use of some microchips. I don't remember exact details, but they had almost no self preserve instincts left. 

they had almost no self preserve instincts left
^ Therein lies your answer

Also, you ignored my earlier post. Surely you simply missed it.

Modifié par CynicalShep, 12 octobre 2013 - 05:40 .


#1369
Cainhurst Crow

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Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

KainD wrote...

What you are discribing is a very LOW emotional state, rather than a completely emotionless state. 


I believe that to be what the Tranquil are in, since they fit better with what he describes than with the complete not-caring that they should display.


They're cut off from the fade, but they apprently still have some remnant of a soul. Perhaps thedas is just a place where low emotions and no emotions cannot be distinguished, of that I cannot tell.

#1370
KainD

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Darth Brotarian wrote...

So if a person doesn't care, why even contemplate suicide in the first place?

Emotionless, the antithesis to suicide. As I stated.


When did I say that an emotionless person is going to actively persue suicide? I just said they wouldnt care if they died. 

Modifié par KainD, 12 octobre 2013 - 05:41 .


#1371
Sir JK

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Sheesh... this thread grows quickly.

Xilizhra wrote...

There's a small problem in that only female mages could attain any real power here. Again, this could be an area where the theory of the Imperial Chantry is superior, assuming that they have priests of both genders rather than only male ones (I actually am not sure). This would also require a change in applied doctrine and removal of the notion that magic is some kind of curse, in addition to the reforms I mentioned prior about removing Annulment, nonconsensual Tranquility and the creation of villages around the Circles so as to ensure that families wouldn't have to be separated. If we can get this done on the Chantry's dime, it'll be an acceptable step upwards.

Of course, once the elves get their civilization back, they'll definitely have a different system, which'll create interesting scenarios depending on how the races work themselves out in the new societies...


Incorporating the mages further into the Chantry won't be trivial, there'll be so much resistance to the idea that a lot would have to be given up. But as you say, the Chantry would have to do it's share as well. I doubt the teachings can be allowed to change much, but emphasis. Mages being cursed could be pitched as them being specifically challenged by the maker and thus to be treated with respect, since he clearly expects great things from them.
I don't think the Imperial Chantry is the right model to look at though, since only mages may be higher ranked priests (I think it allows both genders though), instead I'd suggest that Grand Clerics and First Enchanters have parity. Both assembling to vote for the Divine. Have the FE's make up a third of the vote and they'd have enough influence to make a difference.

As for annulment, tranquility and villages. I'm not sure about either. Annulment is warranted when a tower is, as far as anyone can tell, is completely overrun. But never as a punishment.
As for tranquility, are we really sure we want to present the idea to templars and the world that the only way out of magic is death. Tranquility, for all it's faults, presents the idea at the very least that there's an alternative to death for those that cannot handle the gift. Flawed as all hell, I agree. But on a psychological front, is that line of thinking not warranted?
Yeah, tranquility is hardly a mercy... I get that. If used at all, a really robust safety measure would have to prevent it's misuse. But do we really want templars going around thinking "behave or die"? Isn't that part of the problem the current circles have? Except now it'd be worse?

Villages... hmmm... well the circles would take on the guise as monasteries rather than prisons so I suppose it'd work... but I'm not sure in how much danger these villages would be. Lake Calenhad wasn't a very safe lake due to all the magical experiments after all.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
This
actually makes for an interesting free market solution.  Let each
nation deal with mages as it sees fit, and let the mages choose freely
among those national options.

And then it's only a matter of time
before some nation weaponizes its mages.  The mages might even trade
such abilities for more freedom.


But in this premodern world travel is dangerous and slow and even in our modern one, noone tolerates free travel across borders. This is one of those ideas that assumes everyone will go along with it. Whereas the first one that doesn't will immediately have an advantage over all others.

#1372
leaguer of one

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J. Reezy wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

J. Reezy wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

J. Reezy wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Depression is an emotion. They killing themselves out of depression.

Suicide is not attached to an emotion. There's plenty of reasons for it.


One of the largest being emotion.

So if I come along along, pull the pin off a grenade, and blow myself up, assuming I was completely oblivious towards the function of a grenade, it was because I was emotional?


That's not what I said. I said one of the main reasons people kill themselves is emotion.

Also, that circumstance is an accidental death, not a suicide.

Fine, leave out the completely oblivious part. I'm just wondering where the emotion is in suicide.

Ok, your family is about to die and the only way to save them involves you killing yourself. In this case, would emotions be involved if you do choose to end your life?

#1373
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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J. Reezy wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

J. Reezy wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

One of the largest being emotion.

So if I come along along, pull the pin off a grenade, and blow myself up, assuming I was completely oblivious towards the function of a grenade, it was because I was emotional?


That's not what I said. I said one of the main reasons people kill themselves is emotion.

Also, that circumstance is an accidental death, not a suicide.

Fine, leave out the completely oblivious part. I'm just wondering where the emotion is in suicide.


It's the reason why. You're either so depressed, or simply so scared of something else that you just say "Screw that noise." There's other reasons, I think, but this is a big one.

#1374
KainD

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Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

I believe that to be what the Tranquil are in, since they fit better with what he describes than with the complete not-caring that they should display.


Darth Brotarian wrote...

They're cut off from the fade, but they apprently still have some remnant of a soul. Perhaps thedas is just a place where low emotions and no emotions cannot be distinguished, of that I cannot tell.


That is the answer then. Tranquil are not emotionless, just very LOW on emotion, still having some remnants. 

#1375
Cainhurst Crow

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Does anyone else feel that the devs seem to forget what tranquility was going into DA2?