2497 réponses à ce sujet

[Sir JK]

Xilizhra wrote...

This is just one of the many things I'll need to look at Inquisition for, but while we might not be able to have an overwhelming conventional victory, the Veil tear may well complicate matters. And I'm willing to wait for a time for the blood magic ban to be lifted, it doesn't need to be in the first round of negotiations.

Hmmm... that's probably much more likely to be accepted.

And yeah... I agree. Any specifics we'll have to wait for Inquisition for, among other things what the majority of mages actually want, exactly what the templars want (and for that matter if there's any that remained with the Chantry) and actually how well off the involved parties are. Or for that matter, how much influence we'll have. For all we know the conflict could conclude without our input.

Actually, the Chantry can't do crap, because it either has no army or a severely diminished army, and it was actually willing to just let the mages go anyway. We only really have to worry about the templars in terms of the war.

No, it does not have any army now.

But as one of the richest, most well informed and most influential organisations in Thedas it can solve those problems given enough time. Currently the chantry is not entirely antagonistic towards the mage
cause and lacks the means to involve itself much. But that can change.

Which is why it's in the mages best interests not to keep the conflict going for too long.

Claims of being attacked first would exist with or without a due process method of killing them. And a prison system could still exist. I'm also willing to consider the possibility of temporary Tranquility, though I'm still not fond of the idea.

Fair enough. If a prison system could be shown to work, I would not be averse to it either. I just think that there needs to be an alternative to death. Lacking such options would make the templars (or their replacements) very dangerous. This does not have to be tranquilization, I'm just not aware of alternatives that would work.

[Medhia Nox]

@Lord Aesir: You make a good case for keeping them chained.

Every conqueror trades their sword for a quill eventually - all conquest turns to diplomacy.

But a mage always wields his sword... and, as these boards indicate - many mages seem to feel biologically superior enough to wield it whenever they please against whomever.

Fancy that - a group of people that feel they are the master race.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 13 octobre 2013 - 12:36 .

[Xilizhra]

The very principle of a magocracy is just f***ed up. What gives mages the right to rule over non-mages?

The same right that anyone has to rule over anyone else by blood, i.e. every other government in Thedas.

Seldom as it is that I feel inclined to agree with Xil.

I swear that more people have said this about me, or expressed that sentiment, than anyone else on this board.

But as one of the richest, most well informed and most influential organisations in Thedas it can solve those problems given enough time. Currently the chantry is not entirely antagonistic towards the mage
cause and lacks the means to involve itself much. But that can change.

Which is why it's in the mages best interests not to keep the conflict going for too long.

It's in the best interests of the mages to win against the templars, which is why I've advocated for wiping out the whole order. It'll give them far more bargaining power (though note that I will accept surrenders).

Fair enough. If a prison system could be shown to work, I would not be averse to it either. I just think that there needs to be an alternative to death. Lacking such options would make the templars (or their replacements) very dangerous. This does not have to be tranquilization, I'm just not aware of alternatives that would work.

There will be an alternative to death, definitely.

@Lord Aesir: You make a good case for keeping them chained.

Every conqueror trades their sword for a quill eventually - all conquest turns to diplomacy.

But a mage always wields his sword... and, as these boards indicate - many mages seem to feel biologically superior enough to wield it whenever they please against whomever.

Fancy that - a group of people that feel they are the master race.

You're being absurd. No one's talking about advocating mage serial killing, as you seem to be indicating there.

[Sir JK]

Xilizhra wrote...
I swear that more people have said this about me, or expressed that sentiment, than anyone else on this board.

I think it might be because you often, or at least used to, come across as the most radical or extreme. Lately, I find your arguments start to drift towards the more achieveable however.

It's in the best interests of the mages to win against the templars, which is why I've advocated for wiping out the whole order. It'll give them far more bargaining power (though note that I will accept surrenders).

Yeah, completely defeating the templar order would go very far. I'm just not sure they're as weak (or as extreme) as you seem to suggest however. I guess Inquisition will tell, however.

There will be an alternative to death, definitely.

The question is if the most extreme among mages will accept it. I imagine quite a few libertarians feel a bit burned when it comes to institutionalized control mechanisms.

Speaking of which... I'm terribly curious what repercussions the various political views will have within the mage-movement. Now that there's no circles to keep a lid on them anymore.

[Xilizhra]

Yeah, completely defeating the templar order would go very far. I'm just not sure they're as weak (or as extreme) as you seem to suggest however. I guess Inquisition will tell, however.

Well, the Red Templars have broken off a significant chunk of them and everyone can bring them down. That's an edge right there. I'm not even sure that there are any others apart from the ones hanging around with the Chantry still.

The question is if the most extreme among mages will accept it. I imagine quite a few libertarians feel a bit burned when it comes to institutionalized control mechanisms.

The general concept is necessary for any society, so I don't think they'll be too annoyed by it, especially not if they get to start entering and making decisions for the Chantry.

[BlueMagitek]

In the event of a total Mage victory, I'm hoping for the Isolationist faction to come out on top. Screw the majority. ~_^

[The Elder King]

BlueMagitek wrote...

In the event of a total Mage victory, I'm hoping for the Isolationist faction to come out on top. Screw the majority. ~_^

Unlikely. Other than you're assuming they didn't already defect the rebellion and went hiding in some remote place.

Modifié par hhh89, 13 octobre 2013 - 01:31 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...
Theoretically, you could just imprison everyone to end most crime.

No, you couldn't.

Not even theoreticly.

Who will work the prisons?

Actually, the Chantry can't do crap

You mean besides calling for an Exhalted March against mages?

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 13 octobre 2013 - 02:10 .

[Xilizhra]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Theoretically, you could just imprison everyone to end most crime.

No, you couldn't.

Not even theoreticly.

Who will work the prisons?

AI.

The point being that imprisoning people for what they might do in the future is ridiculous. Protecting them from unique forms of danger, that's a different thing with different means.

You mean besides calling for an Exhalted March against mages?

Exactly. Orlais is in shambles, Ferelden's still recovering and probably wouldn't join anyway, Antiva has no army, and everywhere else still has to worry about the Veil tear more than the mage war.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 13 octobre 2013 - 02:11 .

[Sir JK]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, the Red Templars have broken off a significant chunk of them and everyone can bring them down. That's an edge right there. I'm not even sure that there are any others apart from the ones hanging around with the Chantry still.

But we don't know this. We don't know who the Red Templar are, we don't know if they are or broke of the Templar faction, we don't know if any are still with the Chantry and we do not know what their resources are.

The general concept is necessary for any society, so I don't think they'll be too annoyed by it, especially not if they get to start entering and making decisions for the Chantry.

That it's neccessary does not mean they'll accept it. Improving the Circles is neccessary, the templars does not seem to accept that .

Never underestimate people's ability to be completely and utterly unreasonable.

[Xilizhra]

But we don't know this. We don't know who the Red Templar are, we don't know if they are or broke of the Templar faction, we don't know if any are still with the Chantry and we do not know what their resources are.

Perhaps, but knowing that the war isn't a one-sided curbstomping is significant itself.

That it's neccessary does not mean they'll accept it. Improving the Circles is neccessary, the templars does not seem to accept that.

Never underestimate people's ability to be completely and utterly unreasonable.

Maybe, but I'll see when I get there. Mages will get to be part of that control system now, it won't be outsiders doing all of it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...
AI.

No AI in Thedas.
And you didn't acheive anything there. The entire population is now in prison - but keeping an eye on that many people...impossible.
You just moved crime inside the prison walls.

The point being that imprisoning people for what they might do in the future is ridiculous. Protecting them from unique forms of danger, that's a different thing with different means.

It's not. Society has been doing it and is doing it.
It all comes to expected chances and level of danger.

You mean besides calling for an Exhalted March against mages?

Exactly. Orlais is in shambles, Ferelden's still recovering and probably wouldn't join anyway, Antiva has no army, and everywhere else still has to worry about the Veil tear more than the mage war.

There a whole lot of poeple in Thedas Xil.
About 100 times more than there are mages.
There would be more than enough willing to beat the living crap out of them if the Chantry called, Veil or not.

[Angrywolves]

Presumably the Inquisitor can assure Victory of one side or the other or choose an independent path.
I would probably choose an independent path became , imo it presents the greatest chance of a reasonable outcome.
The Templars win then it's probably genocide, with the surviving mages chained up in dungeons. Even the women and children .
The mages win some will seek revenge for past injustices aka Anders, some will become abominations willingly , seeking to carve out fiefdoms for themselves aka uldred.
Yes some will want peace, but you will have in effect,if the Inquisitor supports the mages, let loose those who don't .
So if I buy the game my Inquisitor will exercise independence from both sides.

[Xilizhra]

No AI in Thedas.
And you didn't acheive anything there. The entire population is now in prison - but keeping an eye on that many people...impossible.
You just moved crime inside the prison walls.

Exactly. One has to wonder how effective things are if the templars have committed genocide seventeen times.

It's not. Society has been doing it and is doing it.
It all comes to expected chances and level of danger.

Hardly.

There a whole lot of poeple in Thedas Xil.
About 100 times more than there are mages.
There would be more than enough willing to beat the living crap out of them if the Chantry called, Veil or not.

Not only would this not get nearly enough people when so many local crises are happening, why would the Chantry do so when it didn't when the mages first left?

[cjones91]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Lord Aesir: You make a good case for keeping them chained.

Every conqueror trades their sword for a quill eventually - all conquest turns to diplomacy.

But a mage always wields his sword... and, as these boards indicate - many mages seem to feel biologically superior enough to wield it whenever they please against whomever.

Fancy that - a group of people that feel they are the master race.

Uh...most mages have'nt shown any sort of indication that they feel biologically superior enough to abuse their power whenever they want.Stop grouping all mages together for the actions of a few bad seeds because I can do the same for non mages.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...

No AI in Thedas.
And you didn't acheive anything there. The entire population is now in prison - but keeping an eye on that many people...impossible.
You just moved crime inside the prison walls.

Exactly. One has to wonder how effective things are if the templars have committed genocide seventeen times.

Except the entire purpose of the tower IS to isolate mages, so when "crime" (aka abominations and bad mages) happen, they happen inside.

And 17 times in over a millenium?
That's not much.
Especially when considering we're talking about ALL the circles in the WORLD.

More prison riots happened in the US alone over a period of a decade then there were annulments in the entire history of the circles.

Hardly.

Then what do you call a quarantene?

Not only would this not get nearly enough people when so many local crises are happening, why would the Chantry do so when it didn't when the mages first left?

Funny how there seems to be enough people involved in all hte other s*** going on during the veil tears.
And how there were enough people involved in s*** during hte Blight in DA:O.

As to why would the Chantry do it? Maybe Justinia gets iced? Maybe the Chatnry just has enough? Mayve they didn't do anything because they thought they could still salvage the situation.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 13 octobre 2013 - 03:15 .

[Xilizhra]

And 17 times in over a millenium?
That's not much.
Especially when considering we're talking about ALL the circles in the WORLD.

First, it's only over one continent. Second, it's only been... five hundred years since the practice was implemented. Third, **** yes it's a lot.

More prison riots happened in the US alone over a period of a decade then there were annulments in the entire history of the circles.

Those don't end by slaughtering whole towns.

Then what do you call a quarantene?

Misspelled. And temporary.

Funny how there seems to be enough people involved in all hte other s*** going on during the veil tears.
And how there were enough people involved in s*** during hte Blight in DA:O.

Er, neither of which are Exalted Marches?

As to why would the Chantry do it? Maybe Justinia gets iced? Maybe the Chatnry just has enough? Mayve they didn't do anything because they thought they could still salvage the situation.

We shall see, but given that the Chantry was stated to be in ruins by Varric already, I have my doubts.

[Medhia Nox]

@cjoners91: nobody is questioning whether non mages can be bad - that's a given.

But you can disarm a non-mage.

Tell me - if we played a Tevinter campaign - would you want to destroy Tevinter on behalf of the non-mage slaves? Or would you say - "This is just how it is here in Tevinter."

I'd love for DA 4 to be in Tevinter - just to see the hypocrisy on these forums (or to find I'm incorrect).

Edit: nearly every mage has shown they feel they have a right to abuse their power whenever they want.  Jowan, Zathrian, Uldred, Morrigan, Merrill, Connor, Wilhelm, the Tevinter Slavers of two games and - of course - Anders (who, despite being psychotic, is the only one who seems to use something other than magic for his megalomania - even if the ingredients are for "fantasy gunpowder".) 

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 13 octobre 2013 - 04:11 .

[cjones91]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@cjoners91: nobody is questioning whether non mages can be bad - that's a given.

But you can disarm a non-mage.

Tell me - if we played a Tevinter campaign - would you want to destroy Tevinter on behalf of the non-mage slaves? Or would you say - "This is just how it is here in Tevinter."

I'd love for DA 4 to be in Tevinter - just to see the hypocrisy on these forums (or to find I'm incorrect).

I imagine Tevinter is no evil than Orlais and that the stories of them being boogey men come from the Orlesian Chantry who has a major beef with the Imperial Chantry.I find that Tevinter is atleast honest about their decadence unlike Orlais that tries to hide it and act superior while doing so.

Edit:Those characters don't represent the total mage population and several like Morrigan have never show superiority of any kind so i don't know what you're trying to imply.

Modifié par cjones91, 13 octobre 2013 - 04:14 .

[Medhia Nox]

@cjones91: I see, so their slavery is okay - but it's just the worst ever to do it to a mage.

You've answered my question.

And... I'm done.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 13 octobre 2013 - 04:13 .

[cjones91]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@cjones91: I see, so their slavery is okay - but it's just the worst ever to do it to a mage.

You've answered my question.

And... I'm done.

,When have I implied in my post that I think slavery is okay?

[Medhia Nox]

Was that the question I asked?

Would you like to answer it now?

Or deflect about how Orlais is full of bad people too?

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 13 octobre 2013 - 04:18 .

[leaguer of one]

cjones91 wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@cjones91: I see, so their slavery is okay - but it's just the worst ever to do it to a mage.

You've answered my question.

And... I'm done.

,When have I implied in my post that I think slavery is okay?

It's because you said  Tivintor is no more evil then Orlias.

I agree with you on that.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 13 octobre 2013 - 04:19 .

[cjones91]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Was that the question I asked?

Would you like to answer it now? Or deflect about how Orlais is full of bad people too?

I think slavery should end in Tevinter and they should make reforms so that it does'nt happen again.However atleast Tevinter does'nt dress their dark side up like Orlais does by calling their slaves "servants".That's something both nations have in common along with being corrupt as hell.

[cjones91]

leaguer of one wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@cjones91: I see, so their slavery is okay - but it's just the worst ever to do it to a mage.

You've answered my question.

And... I'm done.

,When have I implied in my post that I think slavery is okay?

It's because you said  Tivintor is no more evil then Orlias.

I agree with you on that.

I don't see how that part would suggest that I support slavery but whatever....Orlais and Tevinter are two sides of the same coin as far as I'm concerned.