2497 réponses à ce sujet

[cjones91]

GodWood wrote...

Silfren wrote...
For the very reason that this argument didn't matter to the humans when they originally stole the land from the Elves when they had lived there for generations, I'm finding it hard to be sympathetic.

The humans that supposedly stole the land are head. The elves who owned the land are dead.

Birth rights don't die and even after a entire generation is dead their descendants still have claims to any property/money,and valuables the family had.The Dalish have a claim to the Dales since it was their second ancestral home.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Silfren wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...


That doesn't answer the question. How exactly is the fact that Thedas will one day have modern technology that can kill every single darkspawn (and I don't think the people who advocate for this comprehend how dangerous the darkspawn are, nor how hard you'll have to look to be sure you've got them all) relevant to a medieval tech Inquisitor who's trying to decide what to do with the mages?

Who said that will be one day technology it will take ages as well next blight darkspawn are dengerous because they have outnumber others and because of archdemon after dao and daa they get a beating .Even without mages archdemon can be killed so

You keep saying the archdemon can be killed without mages, but it patently cannot.  Without the Grey Wardens the archdemon cannot be permanently killed, and without the Joining there are no Grey Wardens...but without mages there is no Joining.  But you ALSO forget that there's always a sea of darkspawn to deal with at the same time.  Mages may not be absolutely vital for this as they are against the Archdemon itself, but only a fool would deny the distinct advantage that having mages provides...especially since the darkspawn have their own mages.

i don't think that having walking bombs who are five second demon is advantage magic isn't so powerful otherwise mages would be free much earlier.How much mages do you even need for joining 3-5 and it will be good and that if you need them.So army of abomnations we seen in both games should be prove that mages aren't advantage.  

I think you have absolutely no familiarity with the lore as concerns the Qunari wars. The main advantage the defenders had was the proper use of magic. The Qunari were battled to a standstill. Tevinter didn't even bother stopping the war and is still going reasonably strong.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 14 octobre 2013 - 02:26 .

[cjones91]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
You sure do assume alot.I said I don't care about the Dales situation so trying to compare the elves taking back their lands to mages being unfairly blamed for something they did'nt do is absurd.

The humans who live in the Dales today didn't steal it from the elves. Why are humans guilty by association for crimes centuries ago but mages are not?

Because the people who occupy the Dales aren't treated like monsters for something a group from a different nation did a thousand years ago.To compare the mage and Dales situation is just being dishonest as they are totally different.

Modifié par cjones91, 14 octobre 2013 - 02:31 .

[Silfren]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Silfren wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Okay. Now what does this have to do with what a player should do in-game, since in context Gaider's made pretty clear he's not going to move technology forward far enough to match magic in the space of these games?

it is like saying that atheists don't exist in da humanity will go forward unless we have world with bizarre rules and da world is more or less like our peoples still have that same desires and flaws like in our so peoples are like in our world. 

That doesn't answer the question. How exactly is the fact that Thedas will one day have modern technology that can kill every single darkspawn (and I don't think the people who advocate for this comprehend how dangerous the darkspawn are, nor how hard you'll have to look to be sure you've got them all) relevant to a medieval tech Inquisitor who's trying to decide what to do with the mages?

Who said that will be one day technology it will take ages as well next blight darkspawn are dengerous because they have outnumber others and because of archdemon after dao and daa they get a beating .Even without mages archdemon can be killed so

You keep saying the archdemon can be killed without mages, but it patently cannot.  Without the Grey Wardens the archdemon cannot be permanently killed, and without the Joining there are no Grey Wardens...but without mages there is no Joining.  But you ALSO forget that there's always a sea of darkspawn to deal with at the same time.  Mages may not be absolutely vital for this as they are against the Archdemon itself, but only a fool would deny the distinct advantage that having mages provides...especially since the darkspawn have their own mages.

i don't think that having walking bombs who are five second demon is advantage magic isn't so powerful otherwise mages would be free much earlier.How much mages do you even need for joining 3-5 and it will be good and that if you need them.So army of abomnations we seen in both games should be prove that mages aren't advantage.  

How many mages are needed is irrelevant.  The fact is, mages are needed, period.  Not just against the darkspawn but against the Qunari as well, and you're still ignoring the point that magic DOES provide a benefit, most tangibly noticeable in the form of healing.

[cjones91]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Yes, yes they do. The current humans had nothing to do with that particular crime against elvenkind, and the vast majority of them were not accessory to any comparable ones.

So if someone stole land from your family,you would'nt try to get it back because the thief moved their friends/family onto the land?

The original claimants of the elven land are dead. Their direct heirs are dead. The direct heirs direct heirs are dead, as are their direct heirs. And ditto for the original offenders. By this point I'd call it quits, unless the land was big enough to share. (And there's at least one large city in the Dales, so there's that.)

But if that land was special to you where generations of your family had lived and died on, then surely it's not immoral to take it back from thieves no matter if their descendants had nothing to do with the theft?Most wealthy people fight for property that was stolen from them and there were even courts that settled disputes over stolen land.

To the expense of people who have had the land for so long as to have similar motivation to defend it? Who have noplace else to stay due to the way poor Orlesians are treated? And when the land is manifestly large enough to have room for the descendents of both parties?

The unfortunate reality is the humans are unlikely to share land with the elves so what are they supposed to do?

[addiction21]

cjones91 wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

That won't happen since Orlais is in turmoil right now.

Yes because Orlais is the total population of Thedas and just remind me. What happened the last time the elves marched a army and started sacking cities?

You are the elves worst enemy.

Orlais was the one who stole the Dales and hardly anyone is going to help when they have problems of their own.Why should the other nations get involved when they had no involvement in the Dales being stolen?

Stole? The Dales were the first to march a army on to foregin soil and start taking land. They picked the fight and they still couldn't even hold their own after Orlais had dealt with almost a 100 years of fighting a blight.

Like I said you are the Elves worst enemy.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The humans of the Dales didn't do anything to the elves of the Dales. You're drawing arbitrary distinctions to make them guilty of something they didn't do. A mage in a Cirlce is exactly as responsible for the crimes of ancient Tevinter Magisters as an Orlesian civilian is for the Fall of the Dales: None at all.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 14 octobre 2013 - 02:33 .

[Mr.House]

cjones91 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

GodWood wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Personally I would see it as karma

Expelling a population of oppressed peasants who had no involvement in an even that happened hundreds of years ago?

Like I said before,humans have been treating elves like **** for hundreds of years.They don't get to complain when the elves try to take back their lands that were stolen from them centuries before.

Yes, yes they do. The current humans had nothing to do with that particular crime against elvenkind, and the vast majority of them were not accessory to any comparable ones.

So if someone stole land from your family,you would'nt try to get it back because the thief moved their friends/family onto the land?

The original claimants of the elven land are dead. Their direct heirs are dead. The direct heirs direct heirs are dead, as are their direct heirs. And ditto for the original offenders. By this point I'd call it quits, unless the land was big enough to share. (And there's at least one large city in the Dales, so there's that.)

But if that land was special to you where generations of your family had lived and died on, then surely it's not immoral to take it back from thieves no matter if their descendants had nothing to do with the theft?Most wealthy people fight for property that was stolen from them and there were even courts that settled disputes over stolen land.

Why would the land be special to me if I've never been there or even lived there and the people who stole it are dead? You sound like that wacko keeper from DAO.

[cjones91]

addiction21 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

That won't happen since Orlais is in turmoil right now.

Yes because Orlais is the total population of Thedas and just remind me. What happened the last time the elves marched a army and started sacking cities?

You are the elves worst enemy.

Orlais was the one who stole the Dales and hardly anyone is going to help when they have problems of their own.Why should the other nations get involved when they had no involvement in the Dales being stolen?

Stole? The Dales were the first to march a army on to foregin soil and start taking land. They picked the fight and they still couldn't even hold their own after Orlais had dealt with almost a 100 years of fighting a blight.

Like I said you are the Elves worst enemy.

We really don't know who attacked first but considering Orlais' reputation back then I'm likely to believe they instigated things and then painted the elves as the aggressors.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

cjones91 wrote...

The unfortunate reality is the humans are unlikely to share land with the elves so what are they supposed to do?

That's a more difficult question. But the fact is that the elves would be damaging the lives of innocent people were they to take back the Dales. To justify that by pointing out the crimes their ancestors committed centuries earlier is a failure of logic; the current humans are innocents.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 14 octobre 2013 - 02:36 .

[cjones91]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The humans of the Dales didn't do anything to the elves of the Dales. You're drawing arbitrary distinctions to make them guilty of something they didn't do. A mage in a Cirlce is exactly as responsible for the crimes of ancient Tevinter Magisters as an Orlesian civilian is for the Fall of the Dales: None at all.

You're the one who made the comparison,not me.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

My point was that if it isn't right to oppress mages just for the crimes of ancient magisters, it isn't right to cleanse humans for the crimes of other people who were involved in the Fall of the Dales either.

[GodWood]

cjones91 wrote...
Birth rights don't die and even after a entire generation is dead their descendants still have claims to any property/money,and valuables the family had. The Dalish have a claim to the Dales since it was their second ancestral home.

By your own logic humans have as much right by virtue of it being originally inhabited by human 'barbarians' prior to the mass elven settlement.

[addiction21]

cjones91 wrote...

We really don't know who attacked first but considering Orlais' reputation back then I'm likely to believe they instigated things and then painted the elves as the aggressors.

Yes of course it is some conspiracy you cant prove and all the evidence we have disproves it to absolve your chosen people.

Just like every other instance of elves or mages. It is never their fault someone forced them to do it or its some conspiracy or some other bull****.

Keep lying to yourself its good entertainment.

[TheKomandorShepard]

[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

I think you have absolutely no familiarity with the lore as concerns the Qunari wars. The main advantage the defenders had was the proper use of magic. The Qunari were battled to a standstill. Tevinter didn't even bother stopping the war and is still going reasonably strong.[/quote]

Sorry that i didn't notice old stories about mages i was absorbed in watching mages ass kicked once after once in games and it would trick me.

[/quote]

[quote]
How many mages are needed is irrelevant.  The fact is, mages are
needed, period.  Not just against the darkspawn but against the Qunari
as well, and you're still ignoring the point that magic DOES provide a
benefit, most tangibly noticeable in the form of healing.

[/quote]

Well it is relevant because simple you can kill others as i said magic in da universe is very limited (weak ) this isn't d&d when mages can have own plans or teleport.Their healing spells are limited as well and thedas still can win with qunari without mages.And well as i said restricted healing vs monster what can destroy entrie city and kill everything what see isn't advantage. 

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 14 octobre 2013 - 02:42 .

[leaguer of one]

GodWood wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Personally I would see it as karma

Expelling a population of oppressed peasants who had no involvement in an even that happened hundreds of years ago?

Humans weren't complaining when they stole the Dales from the elves so they don't get to whine when the same thing happens to them.

Oh I see. You support the primitive idea that people inherit the sins of their fathers ergo you must support the subjugation and domination of the mage populace for inflicting the darkspawn on the world.

Stupid and misguided but whatever keeps you in line.

I agree with Gowood. Exiling humans out of the dales would start more wars. The elves can make any proper place there home land.

[cjones91]

addiction21 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

We really don't know who attacked first but considering Orlais' reputation back then I'm likely to believe they instigated things and then painted the elves as the aggressors.

Yes of course it is some conspiracy you cant prove and all the evidence we have disproves it to absolve your chosen people.

Just like every other instance of elves or mages. It is never their fault someone forced them to do it or its some conspiracy or some other bull****.

Keep lying to yourself its good entertainment.

Wtf are you getting at?Point out any post where I've said mages and elves who do bad things do so because of someone else?Seriously, I just said we don't know who started the Dales conflict and just went with my own theory that was based on Orlais' reputation of invading other countries by sending men to them and then slowly taking over.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

I think you have absolutely no familiarity with the lore as concerns the Qunari wars. The main advantage the defenders had was the proper use of magic. The Qunari were battled to a standstill. Tevinter didn't even bother stopping the war and is still going reasonably strong.

Sorry that i didn't notice old stories about mages i was absorbed in watching mages ass kicked once after once in games and it would trick me.

It would, yes. Especially if you weren't paying attention to the fact that DA2 has an unreliable narrator whose an admitted liar, haven't paid attention to the writers griping that the things that happen in-game are out of whack with the rules that govern magic in the setting they wrote, and weren't watching as the PCs shrug off fatal injuries.

How many mages are needed is irrelevant.  The fact is, mages are
needed, period.  Not just against the darkspawn but against the Qunari
as well, and you're still ignoring the point that magic DOES provide a
benefit, most tangibly noticeable in the form of healing.

Well it is relevant because simple you can kill others as i said magic in da universe is very limited (weak ) this isn't d&d when mages can have own plans or teleport.Their healing spells are limited as well and thedas still can win with qunari without mages.And well as i said restricted healing vs monster what can destroy entrie city and kill everything what see isn't advantage. 

Except that abominations are rare. So, that has to be adjusted for. And the fact that mages can do more than heal. Or weren't you paying attention as PC mages, NPC mages, and not to put too fine a point on it, but darkspawn mages were throwing people with fireballs. (Hint: that's less survivable than Hollywood claims.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 14 octobre 2013 - 02:48 .

[Silfren]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Silfren wrote...
How many mages are needed is irrelevant.  The fact is, mages are
needed, period.  Not just against the darkspawn but against the Qunari
as well, and you're still ignoring the point that magic DOES provide a
benefit, most tangibly noticeable in the form of healing.

Well it is relevant because simple you can kill others as i said magic in da universe is very limited (weak ) this isn't d&d when mages can have own plans or teleport.Their healing spells are limited as well and thedas still can win with qunari without mages.And well as i said restricted healing vs monster what can destroy entrie city and kill everything what see isn't advantage. 

You're not even making sense, and if you're claiming magic is weak you are completely disregarding the lore.  Certainly you shouldn't be using gameplay for your argument.  And you can't say that the nations of Thedas can win against the Qunari when the lore has been very clear that it's specifically due to the powers of mages that the Qunari have been held in check. 

[Silfren]

leaguer of one wrote...

GodWood wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Personally I would see it as karma

Expelling a population of oppressed peasants who had no involvement in an even that happened hundreds of years ago?

Humans weren't complaining when they stole the Dales from the elves so they don't get to whine when the same thing happens to them.

Oh I see. You support the primitive idea that people inherit the sins of their fathers ergo you must support the subjugation and domination of the mage populace for inflicting the darkspawn on the world.

Stupid and misguided but whatever keeps you in line.

I agree with Gowood. Exiling humans out of the dales would start more wars. The elves can make any proper place there home land.

Unless and until the humans decide they want it, you mean.  If real world history is any indication, Elves couldn't just pick any "proper" place because sooner or later the humans would become aware of the qualities of that land and try to expel the elves yet again.  The only time such a people are ever left alone is when that land is truly worthless.

[Hellion Rex]

Morocco Mole wrote...



Good. Good it has all come as I have foreseen my friends

God, where is Darth Vader when you need him. <_<

Modifié par eluvianix, 14 octobre 2013 - 02:56 .

[cjones91]

Silfren wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

GodWood wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Personally I would see it as karma

Expelling a population of oppressed peasants who had no involvement in an even that happened hundreds of years ago?

Humans weren't complaining when they stole the Dales from the elves so they don't get to whine when the same thing happens to them.

Oh I see. You support the primitive idea that people inherit the sins of their fathers ergo you must support the subjugation and domination of the mage populace for inflicting the darkspawn on the world.

Stupid and misguided but whatever keeps you in line.

I agree with Gowood. Exiling humans out of the dales would start more wars. The elves can make any proper place there home land.

Unless and until the humans decide they want it, you mean.  If real world history is any indication, Elves couldn't just pick any "proper" place because sooner or later the humans would become aware of the qualities of that land and try to expel the elves yet again.  The only time such a people are ever left alone is when that land is truly worthless.

And there's the possibility of humans catching word of a new elven land and trying to "convice" them to hand it over.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Personally, I don't think mages are necessarily in surviving the Qunari, but with the darkspawn... that's harder to claim.

[Heimdall]

cjones91 wrote...

And there's the possibility of humans catching word of a new elven land and trying to "convice" them to hand it over.

If such a situation arises, it will be up to the elves to defend their claim.  It doesn't justify stealing away someone's ancestral home just because your ancestors lived there for awhile centuries ago.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 14 octobre 2013 - 03:07 .