2497 réponses à ce sujet

[TheKomandorShepard]

[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...


It would, yes. Especially if you weren't paying attention to the fact that DA2 has an unreliable narrator whose an admitted liar, haven't paid attention to the writers griping that the things that happen in-game are out of whack with the rules that govern magic in the setting they wrote, and weren't watching as the PCs shrug off fatal injuries.
[/quote]
well if da 2 don't suit and asunder and dawn of the seeker with da redemption as examples?
[/quote]


[quote]
Except that abominations are rare. So, that has to be adjusted for. And the fact that mages can do more than heal. Or weren't you paying attention as PC mages, NPC mages, and not to put too fine a point on it, but darkspawn mages were throwing people with fireballs. (Hint: that's less survivable than Hollywood claims.)[/quote]

Well damn i missed connor , tower full of them , abomnation on road and others in denerim , and their army in da 2 , as well baroness damn they are rare yes i notice fireball and i see that only more powerful mages can throw that only others use only weak flamethrower and i don't sepak about gameplay. 

[quote]Silfren wrote...


You're not even making sense, and if
you're claiming magic is weak you are completely disregarding the lore. 
Certainly you shouldn't be using gameplay for your argument.  And you
can't say that the nations of Thedas can win against the Qunari when the
lore has been very clear that it's specifically due to the powers of
mages that the Qunari have been held in check. 

[/quote]
But i don't use gameplay where i use gameplay example? to the moment i don't see that magic is powerful what games and other da products shown that magic is pathetic and they are beaten by most guys i will don't belive that magic is powerful despite some characters will try tell me how mages are powerful just to show 5 seconds later mage crushed by someone like bi***. Devs can tell me that herbert is superowerful killing machine but if herbet get his asskicked by everyone he simply isn't superpowerful killing machine. 

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 14 octobre 2013 - 03:08 .

[Xilizhra]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
You sure do assume alot.I said I don't care about the Dales situation so trying to compare the elves taking back their lands to mages being unfairly blamed for something they did'nt do is absurd.

The humans who live in the Dales today didn't steal it from the elves. Why are humans guilty by association for crimes centuries ago but mages are not?

They didn't steal it themselves... but have been the beneficiaries of stolen property. Just because something was stolen doesn't mean that it stops belonging to the original owner.

Not that I consider the Dales terribly important; Arlathan is a better target.

[Hellion Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
You sure do assume alot.I said I don't care about the Dales situation so trying to compare the elves taking back their lands to mages being unfairly blamed for something they did'nt do is absurd.

The humans who live in the Dales today didn't steal it from the elves. Why are humans guilty by association for crimes centuries ago but mages are not?

They didn't steal it themselves... but have been the beneficiaries of stolen property. Just because something was stolen doesn't mean that it stops belonging to the original owner.

Not that I consider the Dales terribly important; Arlathan is a better target.

If we can somehow unsink it. Didn't Tevinter more or less pull an Atlantis on the whole city?

[Cainhurst Crow]

The human families in the dales have been living in the dales longer than any of these dalish clans have. That to me gives both of them claim to the land. If it were up to me, both would be allowed ti live in the land. If they can't co-exist in the territory, than whoever tries to drive the other out or causes unneeded problems should not be allowed the land anymore.

[Heimdall]

Xilizhra wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
You sure do assume alot.I said I don't care about the Dales situation so trying to compare the elves taking back their lands to mages being unfairly blamed for something they did'nt do is absurd.

The humans who live in the Dales today didn't steal it from the elves. Why are humans guilty by association for crimes centuries ago but mages are not?

They didn't steal it themselves... but have been the beneficiaries of stolen property. Just because something was stolen doesn't mean that it stops belonging to the original owner.

Not that I consider the Dales terribly important; Arlathan is a better target.

When the original owners are long dead and the new residents have lived there centuries longer than the elves did themselves, I think they can claim a degree of right to the land they live off and burry their dead's ashes in.

[Silfren]

[quote]Lord Aesir wrote...

[quote]cjones91 wrote...

Unless and until the humans decide they want it, you mean.  If real world history is any indication, Elves couldn't just pick any "proper" place because sooner or later the humans would become aware of the qualities of that land and try to expel the elves yet again.  The only time such a people are ever left alon is when that land is truly worthless.

[/quote]And there's the possibility of humans catching word of a new elven land and trying to "convice" them to hand it over.
[/quote]If such a situation arises, it will be up to the elves to defend their claim.  It doesn't justify stealing away someone's ancestral home just because your ancestors lived there for awhile centuries ago.
[/quote]

I have to point out that I don't disagree with you, but if such a scenario were presented in game, I would set aside my actual morals and side with the Elves on this one.  I do personally believe that whatever past wrongs might have happened, it's not fair to uproot the current generation, who has nothing to do with the ancient conflicts, but if I had to pick a side in the game, I would eschew both the "compromise" option and the Human option because the orginal wrong done was to the Elves and I don't think that that's a trivial point.

It should be pointed out that the grievance of the current Elves over having had their ancestral lands stolen is NOT invalid merely because the crime was committed against their ancestors and not them, personally.  It was done against them as a people and all the crimes committed against them since has been done as an act of racism against the elves as a people, not as individuals.

Edited to fix a case of crap grammar. 

Modifié par Silfren, 14 octobre 2013 - 03:23 .

[addiction21]

cjones91 wrote...

And there's the possibility of humans catching word of a new elven land and trying to "convice" them to hand it over.

So the Elves could take the Dales back and no one would care but if the Elves have land the Humans will "convince" them to hand it over?

So no matter the situation the elves are the victims of the big mean humans. You asked for the post and here it is... not like I needed one because your entire posting history is how the elves/mages can do no wrong and its always some other group at fault.

Your poor chosen people and this victimization complex.

[BlueMagitek]

And, you know, regardless of what started the war, the Dales were taken by conquest and Orlais has it by Right of Conquest.

While it isn't applicable in the modern scope, Thedas most likely follows it.

So calling the Dales "stolen" is wrong.

Edit:

Heck,  if you want to go back farther, the land was Tevinter's and before that it was the Barbarians.  Prior to that it probably belonged to the Arlathan Elves, but we don't know that for sure.

But please, support the invasion of the Dales for Tevinter.  They need all the blood slaves they can get. 

Modifié par BlueMagitek, 14 octobre 2013 - 03:16 .

[Silfren]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

The human families in the dales have been living in the dales longer than any of these dalish clans have. That to me gives both of them claim to the land. If it were up to me, both would be allowed ti live in the land. If they can't co-exist in the territory, than whoever tries to drive the other out or causes unneeded problems should not be allowed the land anymore.

How would you account for individuals acting badly as opposed to carrying out predations sanctioned by the whole?  Even if elves and humans somehow did reach a consensus and signed a treaty, there is no reason to think that the odd lone individual or group wouldn't violate it.   The whole "you share the land, and the first one of you to violate the treaty gets moved out" is a very untenable solution.  At the bare minimum you would have one group trying to provoke an attack by the other in order to make them violate the terms, etc.  And if individual skirmishes did break out, who did what first would ultimately be a very difficult thing to prove.  And since humans have the advantage of numbers and the automatic sympathies of other humans....well.  Let's just say that this scenario still puts the elves at a distinct disadvantage.

Just a cursory look at the relations between, say, the native peoples of the Americas, and European colonialists, would show plainly how riddled with holes such a "solution" actually is.

Modifié par Silfren, 14 octobre 2013 - 03:19 .

[leaguer of one]

Silfren wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

GodWood wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Personally I would see it as karma

Expelling a population of oppressed peasants who had no involvement in an even that happened hundreds of years ago?

Humans weren't complaining when they stole the Dales from the elves so they don't get to whine when the same thing happens to them.

Oh I see. You support the primitive idea that people inherit the sins of their fathers ergo you must support the subjugation and domination of the mage populace for inflicting the darkspawn on the world.

Stupid and misguided but whatever keeps you in line.

I agree with Gowood. Exiling humans out of the dales would start more wars. The elves can make any proper place there home land.

Unless and until the humans decide they want it, you mean.  If real world history is any indication, Elves couldn't just pick any "proper" place because sooner or later the humans would become aware of the qualities of that land and try to expel the elves yet again.  The only time such a people are ever left alone is when that land is truly worthless.

But that Elves do have places that humans allow them to have land like that.... In Rivan and inFerelden if you are a dalish warden. Even the commoner warden has there own Bann,

Modifié par leaguer of one, 14 octobre 2013 - 03:26 .

[Mr.House]

BlueMagitek wrote...

And, you know, regardless of what started the war, the Dales were taken by conquest and Orlais has it by Right of Conquest.

While it isn't applicable in the modern scope, Thedas most likely follows it.

So calling the Dales "stolen" is wrong.

Edit:

Heck,  if you want to go back farther, the land was Tevinter's and before that it was the Barbarians.  Prior to that it probably belonged to the Arlathan Elves, but we don't know that for sure.

But please, support the invasion of the Dales for Tevinter.  They need all the blood slaves they can get. 

I support Qunari invasion for all.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...


It would, yes. Especially if you weren't paying attention to the fact that DA2 has an unreliable narrator whose an admitted liar, haven't paid attention to the writers griping that the things that happen in-game are out of whack with the rules that govern magic in the setting they wrote, and weren't watching as the PCs shrug off fatal injuries.

well if da 2 don't suit and asunder and dawn of the seeker with da redemption as examples?

By which logic dragons are completely powerless, since I'm given to understand Cassandra kills two of them? What a PC or other main character can do doesn't really represent what an average peasant, average assassin, or even average soldier can do.

Except that abominations are rare. So, that has to be adjusted for. And the fact that mages can do more than heal. Or weren't you paying attention as PC mages, NPC mages, and not to put too fine a point on it, but darkspawn mages were throwing people with fireballs. (Hint: that's less survivable than Hollywood claims.)

Well damn i missed connor , tower full of them , abomnation on road and others in denerim , and their army in da 2 , as well baroness damn they are rare yes i notice fireball and i see that only more powerful mages can throw that only others use only weak flamethrower and i don't sepak about gameplay.  

Nor do you sepak about proper spelling and grammar.

You are clearly speaking about gameplay with much of that. And a flamethrower is a lot less weak than it's represented as in-game. And if people aren't crying out in pain, blistering all over, and looking like Sandor Clegane decades after, I'll have to conclude the same about the other media. For a more accurate look at what magical fire would look like, see the image from Dragon Age: Until We Sleep where a Qunari is melting.

Silfren wrote...


You're not even making sense, and if
you're claiming magic is weak you are completely disregarding the lore. 
Certainly you shouldn't be using gameplay for your argument.  And you
can't say that the nations of Thedas can win against the Qunari when the
lore has been very clear that it's specifically due to the powers of
mages that the Qunari have been held in check. 

But i don't use gameplay where i use gameplay example? to the moment i don't see that magic is powerful what games and other da products shown that magic is pathetic and they are beaten by most guys i will don't belive that magic is powerful despite some characters will try tell me how mages are powerful just to show 5 seconds later mage crushed by someone like bi***. Devs can tell me that herbert is superowerful killing machine but if herbet get his asskicked by everyone he simply isn't superpowerful killing machine. 

They are beaten by main characters. And not always without losses. I'm pretty sure someone with an actual name dies at the end of Redemption.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 14 octobre 2013 - 03:19 .

[BlueMagitek]

Even if you aren't a Dalish Warden, the Dalish are afforded the Hinterlands, I believe, if they assist against the Blight.

[leaguer of one]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Even if you aren't a Dalish Warden, the Dalish are afforded the Hinterlands, I believe, if they assist against the Blight.

Bingo. The elves alrady have place they can start a country.

[Heimdall]

Silfren wrote...

I have to point out that I don't disagree with you, but if such a scenario were presented in game, I would set aside my actual morals and side with the Elves on this one.  I do personally believe that whatever past wrongs might have happened, it's not fair to uproot the current generation, who has nothing to do with the ancient conflicts, but if I had to pick a side in the game, I would eschew both the "compromise" option and the Human option because the orginal wrong done was to the Elves and I don't think that that's a trivial point.

It should be pointed out that the grievance of the current Elves over having had their ancestral lands stolen is NOT invalid merely because the crime was committed against their ancestors and not them, personally.  It was done against them as a people, because, and all the crimes committed against them since has been done as an act of racism against the elves as a people, not as individuals.

Well, I plan to play a Qunari that is utterly unmoved by sentiment, she she probably won't sympathize with the elves.  I do get your point though.

I do believe the elves have a certain claim to those lands.  I just don't think those claims are enough to justify uprooting the current generation of humans and committing the same crime all over again.

[Silfren]

leaguer of one wrote...

Silfren wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

GodWood wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Personally I would see it as karma

Expelling a population of oppressed peasants who had no involvement in an even that happened hundreds of years ago?

Humans weren't complaining when they stole the Dales from the elves so they don't get to whine when the same thing happens to them.

Oh I see. You support the primitive idea that people inherit the sins of their fathers ergo you must support the subjugation and domination of the mage populace for inflicting the darkspawn on the world.

Stupid and misguided but whatever keeps you in line.

I agree with Gowood. Exiling humans out of the dales would start more wars. The elves can make any proper place there home land.

Unless and until the humans decide they want it, you mean.  If real world history is any indication, Elves couldn't just pick any "proper" place because sooner or later the humans would become aware of the qualities of that land and try to expel the elves yet again.  The only time such a people are ever left alone is when that land is truly worthless.

But that Elves do have places that humans allow them to have land like that.... In Rivan and inFerelden if you are a dalish warden. Even the commoner warden has there own Arl ship,

Keyword, the humans "allow" them this land.  See the problem? 

The epilogue in Origins that refers to the Dalish land also indicates that it hardly resolves all the problems between elves and humans, and anyway, we all already know that none of the epilogues can be taken as gospel.

[BlueMagitek]

Well that's because the Dalish decide to uproot themselves and move to Kirkwall. Not Ferelden's fault.

[cjones91]

addiction21 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

And there's the possibility of humans catching word of a new elven land and trying to "convice" them to hand it over.

So the Elves could take the Dales back and no one would care but if the Elves have land the Humans will "convince" them to hand it over?

So no matter the situation the elves are the victims of the big mean humans. You asked for the post and here it is... not like I needed one because your entire posting history is how the elves/mages can do no wrong and its always some other group at fault.

Your poor chosen people and this victimization complex.

Dude seriously?Stop looking for things that aren't there.

You seem to think Im Pro Elf/Mage whatever but like I said many times before.....I'm 100% neutral and willing to look at both sides.

Modifié par cjones91, 14 octobre 2013 - 03:26 .

[Xilizhra]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Even if you aren't a Dalish Warden, the Dalish are afforded the Hinterlands, I believe, if they assist against the Blight.

That's a glitch.

[BlueMagitek]

Bioware has a history of acknowledging glitches. Most recently they acknowledged the ME 1 Renegade response to Conrad.

[leaguer of one]

Silfren wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Silfren wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

GodWood wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Personally I would see it as karma

Expelling a population of oppressed peasants who had no involvement in an even that happened hundreds of years ago?

Humans weren't complaining when they stole the Dales from the elves so they don't get to whine when the same thing happens to them.

Oh I see. You support the primitive idea that people inherit the sins of their fathers ergo you must support the subjugation and domination of the mage populace for inflicting the darkspawn on the world.

Stupid and misguided but whatever keeps you in line.

I agree with Gowood. Exiling humans out of the dales would start more wars. The elves can make any proper place there home land.

Unless and until the humans decide they want it, you mean.  If real world history is any indication, Elves couldn't just pick any "proper" place because sooner or later the humans would become aware of the qualities of that land and try to expel the elves yet again.  The only time such a people are ever left alone is when that land is truly worthless.

But that Elves do have places that humans allow them to have land like that.... In Rivan and inFerelden if you are a dalish warden. Even the commoner warden has there own Arl ship,

Keyword, the humans "allow" them this land.  See the problem? 

The epilogue in Origins that refers to the Dalish land also indicates that it hardly resolves all the problems between elves and humans, and anyway, we all already know that none of the epilogues can be taken as gospel.

Sorry but Elve can't get a sovergin with out human support. Even the Dales was given to them because of Andraste. So what if there is some problem with hUman with the new land, that does not mean it will not be worked out. It would be far less problmatic that trying to take and hold the dales.

[Silfren]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Even if you aren't a Dalish Warden, the Dalish are afforded the Hinterlands, I believe, if they assist against the Blight.

The Dalish are only given the Hinterlands  (the Hinterlands, mind you, which is hardly a magnanimous gesture), if you are the Dalish Warden and ask for that boon/make the Ultimate Sacrifice.  Any time it shows up in another Origin, it was a bug I'm fairly sure.

[leaguer of one]

Xilizhra wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Even if you aren't a Dalish Warden, the Dalish are afforded the Hinterlands, I believe, if they assist against the Blight.

That's a glitch.

No It's not...
http://dragonage.wik...ilogue_(Origins)

A Dalish[/b] Warden may ask that the Dalish be officially granted territorial sovereignty.Note:[/b] If Nature of the Beast is resolved in favor of the elves, the Dalish are given lands during the epilogue even if this boon isn't chosen. However, the Dalish will only receive the Hinterlands if the Dalish Warden requests this boon.[/list][/list]These are the gliches...

Bug![/b]  If Anora is queen and you opted to take Morrigan up on her dark promise, requesting from the queen that the Grey Wardens not be forgotten causes her to speak of Alistair as if he were dead, yet he is standing near you on the dais.Bug![/b]  If Alistair was not made King, Morrigan's dark ritual was accepted, and Loghain was executed at the Landsmeet, you must select Alistair for your final group in Denerim to face the Archdemon if you wish him to appear at the coronation. If he is left behind to defend the gate, he will be absent from the coronation.Bug![/b]  If Alistair marries Anora but sacrifices himself to kill the Archdemon, the Epilogue will state that Alistair and Anora ruled jointly.
If Alistair is king and the Warden lives, the epilogue slide for the alienage will be the same regardless of whether this boon was chosen; a 'bad flag' is preventing alternative slides from triggering. It will only mention that the Hahren has been raised to the court of Denerim, upsetting the nobility.

[leaguer of one]

Silfren wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Even if you aren't a Dalish Warden, the Dalish are afforded the Hinterlands, I believe, if they assist against the Blight.

The Dalish are only given the Hinterlands  (the Hinterlands, mind you, which is hardly a magnanimous gesture), if you are the Dalish Warden and ask for that boon/make the Ultimate Sacrifice.  Any time it shows up in another Origin, it was a bug I'm fairly sure.

No IT'S NOT A BUG...
http://dragonage.wik...logue_(Origins)

[Silfren]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Well that's because the Dalish decide to uproot themselves and move to Kirkwall. Not Ferelden's fault.

That wasn't the Dalish.  It was a single clan.